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旧帖 2019-09-26 23:36:41
Post #26
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04

Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留

To the contrary - it was a rising tide, speed of current close to 5 knots (maximum speed can be 6 knots). I think this current dissipates in the Straight (or becomes much slower) somewhere 300-400 m offshore. I was approaching from the East (from the Mainland). The opposing current threw me out of the Pass and out of the current for some reason, into totally calm and surprisingly warm water 50-70 m offshore. I crawled back into the boat and bailed the water out, while enjoying a view of a plastic double kayak capsizing after me. The guys probably lost sense of direction during the capsize and after landing briefly (they didn't do a wet exit), they paddled to the East, towards small rocky islet across from the Pass. They didn't try to look for a portage trail (there was a trail where they landed), and it didn't look like they were taking a 14 km detour to the North either.

 
旧帖 2019-09-26 23:41:19
Post #27
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 I have a Big Kahuna and experienced a similar problem. My compass was scratching through the surface of the deck over the deck bar. Feathercraft posted a warning on their site which instructed owners to turn the attachments for deck bungies so that the curved side rested against the deck to prevent similar damage. So this is a know issue with Feathercrafts.

Not wanting my deck to be damaged and certainly not wanting to cause a leak, I cut a piece of the hull patch material from the Feathercraft repair kit and glued it to the deck over the deck bar. As you note, this is similar to the strip that Feathercraft uses on the K1 and Kats.

The patch flexes quite readily over the deck bar and seems quite secure. I can see no damage to the deck - certainly no delaminating. The patch has been there for 2 years without any adverse affects. In addition to protecting the deck fabric while on the water, it protects the it when I cartop the boat and throw a strap over the front deck. I've been considering adding two additional patches over the chine bars in the rear that seem to be suffering some abrasion from cartop straps. I think FC should include a deck strip to the Kahuna as they do with their other boats.

I'm surprised that Feathercraft discouraged you from gluing a patch over the deck bar given that they provide patch material and glue to patch both deck and hull. This isn't a part of the deck that flexes during use, so I can't see how it would cause delamination.

I took a picture of my deck patch which I'd be glad to send to you since I can't figure out how to attach it to this response.

Also, I disagree with tsunamichuck, looks are important. I plan to keep my Kahuna for a long time and want it to look good for years.
 
旧帖 2019-09-26 23:52:20
Post #28
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 Not from personal experience - but either of them can make the way trough, if needed. Ranger warned me particularly regarding racoons and tents (especially with food inside) - there was plenty of them and very persistent, and they did manage to steal my apple from lunch stump right in my presence when I turned away, but didn't try to do anything with tent when I went to walk around the island. Why keeping Kahuna uspide down, if it's not a secret? $15 cockpit cover will protect it from rain, if this is a concern.
 
旧帖 2019-09-26 23:54:18
Post #29
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 I agree. On an extended trip, another kayaker stored some peanuts inside her drybag, sitting on the ground. Rats holed it one night, so she removed the food, and duct-taped it shut. Next night, they holed it in a new spot, pursuing the smell of the gone peanuts. Hypalon would not be a barrier to rats, I suspect.

Those same nights, I had 40 lbs of various vegetables and fruits, also in a drybag, but suspended on a line run over a branch, some 10 feet out from the tree trunk, and about 10 feet off the ground (no bears on this island, but possibly raccons). No incidents.

I don't like rats.
 
旧帖 2019-09-27 00:00:55
Post #30
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 I have it on good authority that porcupines will eat the frame on a wooden framed kayak. Park and Forest Rangers in Alaska routinely advise paddlers of certain vessels to take precautions.
My own experience with rats is that they will "taste" anything! -and especially if it has residual salt.
Racoons, -Very tenacious creatures. When we first came to the States, we had one for a pet. He did "crew" on our AE II and I can't remember any specific incidents. I believe they are more apt to wreck something to get to something edible (or collectable ) -but not taste the inanimate object itself.
 
旧帖 2019-09-27 00:01:40
Post #31
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 these animals will eat/chew anything that has salt on it.....frequently hiking on the Appalachian Trail I've seen where a hiker has sat on a wood shelter floor and later where the pocurpines literally ate the wood where they sat for the salt--this is 3/4 inch plywood with bit size chunks gone....here in the south though we dont have porcupines but beware as you paddle north.
 
旧帖 2019-09-27 00:02:00
Post #32
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保留
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 Rats WILL cause damage if the boat is the only thing they can chew, believe me! They chew through the hull, sponsons, hypalon, anything, ...Crabs bore thru the collapsible coollers with food inside but no damage to the boat...Next day I sure put the boat off the sand on some wood sticks I found.
Seakayaker_k1
 
旧帖 2020-10-08 23:50:01
Post #33
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:34:11 EST
From: DMon707
Subject: [Paddlewise] Sails

My partner and I have Feathercraft K-1's and we're considering using sails for
the Sea of Cortez this winter. On our Mulege to Loreto paddle last year, Nike
golf umbrellas were sweet, but they didn't last out the year. Our K-1's have
sail fixtures, I assume, for the feathercraft sail, about which I know
nothing. Ralph Diaz mentions BSD Batwings. Any K-1 sailors out there have any
experience, gossip, etc., about different sails? Weight and size are critical,
since flying the kayaks, gear and food down to Loreto is already a grunt.
Doug Montgomery
San Francisco



Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:53:56 -0800
From: rdiaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sails

Since my name has come up, I thought I would elaborate some.

The K-1 can and has been rigged by several individuals to use the Balogh
Batwing sail.  That is a sail rig able to point into or sail into the
wind.

The first was a fellow from Ontario who used just about the smallest
Batwing (I think 18 sq ft if my memory serves me well).  He took the
special fitting that Feathercraft will fit in the deck top bar for using
the Feathercraft Genoa sail and used it for the Balogh mast.  The sail
had a slight forward pitch due to the angle of the bow deck bar.  For
stability in sailing he counted on two things.  1) he had the boat full
of camping gear...he was sailing north in the Canadian Arctic and had
lots of it and 2) he used SeaWing sponsons.  This was a quick approach
to the task.  It used the detached blades of the 4-piece paddle as
leeboards.

2) The second setup was by a fellow in Georgia who put in the full
Batwing rig, about 28 sq ft or bigger with the BOSS outriggers, large
standard leeboard, the works.  It required some welding and specially
engineered pieces to beef up the front frame as well as holes in the
deck to support the struts holding the outrigger bar.  He is an engineer
and designed this himself plus had the equipment and materials from his
job to make this custom job himself.

Both worked well.  The first fellow has since, I understand, moved
toward something like the second fellow's.  The second fellow recently
sold his K-1 and Batwing and basically gotten out of kayaking.  He
advertised it in my newsletter but I don't know if it sold through it or
via some other means.  These are the only two such upwind setups that I
am aware of for the K-1.  Both were fully written up in my newsletter
and I would be happy to fax the articles to any one who is interested.

Feathercraft is in the process, or already has, developed an upwind
sail.  I am not certain where it is at exactly.

The Genoa and kites and other such rigs will give you a nice boost if
you are going with the wind or on a broad reach.  Some setups can come
around to just about a beam reach but you need a leeboard to prevent
your boat from sliding across the water sideways when attempt that beam
reach.

ralph diaz
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069;
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:36:37 -0700
From: Philip Wylie
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sails

For sailing info in general check out these fabulous guys at the
MAATSUYKER CANOE CLUB-  Sailing Rigs for Tasmanian Sea Kayaks


http://www.vision.net.au/~jennings/sail/sail.html

They have some great info available and you will want to visit their web page
and spend an hour enjoying there wonderful photo album. Great stuff!


Best Regards,

Philip Wylie





From: [Ralph Diaz]
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:38:21 -0800
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sail vs. paddle?

Jim Holman wrote:

> I've been starting to do some reading and research on folding kayaks.
> I'm interested in the fact that it is possible to sail in one, but
> I have a few basic questions:
>
> 1)  How well do single-seaters sail compared to dual-seaters?

The two seaters, especially the ones with a single large cockpit, tend
to be better sailing vessels.  More room for dealing with the sheets,
several options on where to place the mast (forward or in mid-cockpit,
etc.  That is not to say that the singles are not suited for sailing.
They are.

> 2)  Is it "fun" to sail a kayak, or a hassle, or difficult?

Depends on your attitude.  I think a person is either a sailor or a
paddler.  You don't find too many who bridge both worlds well.  Most of
the good sailors I know haven't the foggiest idea how to paddle except
for the few strokes needed to get away from a dock or pull into a boat
ramp.  Try asking one whether he feathers his paddle and you will get a
look of puzzlement that suggests they think you are asking about
sticking feathers in it.

It can be a hassle.  It does require a lot of concentration.  You are
thinking, wind direction, ruddering, tacking, amount of wind in sail,
etc.  I think it is relatively unsafe to be sailing a kayak in heavily
trafficked waters as it takes away too much attention from things going
on around you.

> 3)  How effective are the upwind sails vs. downwind only?

Well, depends on what direction you want to go.  A downwind sail is not
going to go into the wind.  If you mean, which is more efficient in
doing what they are supposed to do, the downwind ones are better going
downwind than the upwinds are going upwind.  There isn't enough momentum
in such a light vessel as a kayak to sail efficiently upwind.  It can be
done, but it is quite slow and requires such wide, frequent tacks, that
you are better off pulling out your paddle and paddling.  Or doing what
is called power paddling, which is basically sailing on upwind tacks
while also using your paddle to get more wind  into your sail.  But for
that you need a front passenger to do the paddling.
Upwind sails are best on a beam reach, i.e. perpendicular to the wind or
slightly pointing upwind 10 degrees from perpendicular.  Then they fly
like bats out of hell.

> 4)  When  all is said and done, are sails worth the cost?  If you have
> sails, would you buy them again?  If you don't have sails, do you wish
> you did?

Again it depends on your attitude and outlook.  Those who sail can't get
enough of them.  You often see people in double Kleppers, Folbots, etc.
adding another sail to their boats creating a schooner rig.  I have even
seen someone have a jib and two mainsails (of slightly different square
area).  It is addictive.  I don't like sailing BTW although I do hang
out around a lot with sailing kayakers and have been at every one of the
sailing conventions in North Carolina each fall run by Balogh Sail
Designs, the premier sail maker and designer for kayak sailing.  And I
believe that my folding kayak book is the only sea kayaking book that
really discusses sails plus gives fairly long description of sailing
tips regarding the 3 or 4 principal type of sail rigs.  There is a whole
chapter on how to sail these various rigs and sections of other chapters
in selecting sails.

> 5)  How much total cost do upwind or downwind sails add, all things considered?

Assuming you have a rudder, figure around US$1200-1400 for an upwind
sail that would include leeboard and outriggers (Balogh), around US$1100
for the Klepper S-4 rig (leeboards, no outriggers) and about US$300 to
$400 for downwind sails. You haven't asked about kite sails...that's
another story and issue.

> Thanks in advance for any insights.  I know a couple of people with kayaks, but
> no one who sails in one.

Well, I don't sail as you can see from my responses.  I learned enough
about them to write about them and pass on information since sailing is
a big part of the appeal of folding kayaks.  But I rather be paddling.
:-)

ralph diaz
--




Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:48:10 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sail rigs

Matt Broze wrote:
SNIPPED
> they we no faster than us. However, they soon resorted just using the jib
> and stowing all the rest. We would leave them far behind with the spinaker
> and have to wait for them again.

I am glad someone brought up sailing with the Klepper jib alone,
although it did not seem to work all that well for Matt's fellow kayak
sailors.  In my experience, and from what I know from other sources, jib
sailing can be a very effective sail even for beam reaching (90 degrees
to the direction of the wind) and works well on a broad reach (45
degrees or so off downwind) and straight downwind running.

I have not done much sailing, just enough to know how to write about it
with the help of good friends like Mark Balogh.  But I do recall my
first week of sailing in which going on a broad reach with a jib in
which my wife and I in a double Klepper were able to keep up with a
smallish Batwing on a double Klepper.  Other factors may have accounted
for this other than sail. Perhaps the expert sailor in the other boat
wasn't all that expert with this particular sail.  Also the other boat
had the group's leader in it who besides possessing a heavy ego also had
a disproportionately high amount of the groups gear, not that my wife
and I in our Klepper double were not carrying a load as well.

We knew next to nothing about sailing (I still don't; she knows a lot
more).  But we operated as an effective team.  She worked the jib sheet
(sheet is sailing parlance for the line controlling a sail) to
perfection with a subtle touch on keeping the jib filled with just the
right amount of wind.  And me?  I was controlling the rudder.  I figured
that the expert sailor in the other Klepper knew how to get the most out
of the wind.  All I had to do was to make certain that our boat was
always on a parallel line with his heading.  As he varied his heading, I
duplicated it like a monkey mimicing human gestures.

We went for several miles that way.  The leader never turned around all
that time convinced that he had pulled out well ahead of the group (In
his defense it was the last day of an 8 day trip and he may have been
tired of dealing with our motley group).  Meanwhile we were holding our
position about 100 feet behind him, a respectable distance for observing
his movements.  When he came close to the takeout beach and finally
turned around, the look of surprise to see us just behind him was
priceless.  It was "Where the hell did these non-sailing bozos come
from?"

Jib sailing a Klepper offers a lot of advantages.  Less setup time.
Less complex.  Smaller package to take with you when travelling and to
stow away in your boat.  And less liable to tip over than the full
Klepper S-4 rig which has a soft pocket up high on the mast which can
flip you if a gust hits up there with you unawares (listen to Ralph talk
as if actually knows anything about this!:-))  I know that Gail Ferris
was very big on the idea of jib sailing in her northern trips.  She even
cut down the sail area of the jib because she was afraid too much area
might tip her single Klepper.

ralph diaz





Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:17:29 EDT
From: Paul Raymond
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak Sail Patterns

[Evan_Dallas]:

> Anyone know where I might find a pattern for a make-it-yerself kayak sail?
> I'm only interested in the go-straight-ahead-only pocket-type sail (I'm
> not sure of the correct terminology here), as opposed to the windsurfer
> or sailboat style where you can actually go into the wind.

I bookmarked these links from a previous thread. Haven't gotten far enough
on the kayak I'm building to try them yet. The first two have sketches of
downward sails.

http://www.vision.net.au/~jennings/sail/sail.html

http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/36/osdgl.html

http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/sails.htm

Also try the Kayak Sailing mailing list at

http://www.shipwrecked.com/kayak-sail/

They have a links page also.

Good luck, Paul.
 
旧帖 2020-10-08 23:53:01
Post #34
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission.


From: [Ralph Diaz]
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:39:04 -0800
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] K-Light back from Baja

Karen H. wrote:

> I don't expect to be traveling to the east coast any time soon, Ralph,
> but if you come to the symposium in Washington (Port Townsend, I think)
> I'll bring my boat for your demonstration. In fact, I'll do the assembly
> and let you critique!  ;-)

Well, I have not been out that way for that symposium since 1993.  Maybe
I will come out.

> I have to stick with what I said about the boat being slow and hard to
> control in some of the conditions in which we were paddling.
> technique, but when the wind blows that boat insists on turning right
> into it!
>
> The boat was incredibly stable, but making headway in a fairly strong
> wind with a good rip current was a real battle when crossing La Partida.
> My guys in the Sealution and Necky Narpa were struggling too, but at
> least they were able to maintain a course and concentrate their efforts
> on paddling. I was literally doing a sweep paddle most of the way across
> (2, 3 or 4 sweeps on the right, one short stroke on left) to keep the
> boat headed in the right direction and maintain some forward momentum.
> It was challenging paddling for everyone, but the pointed bow and
> sleeker design of the Sealution in particular seemed to be the most
> efficient in those conditions.

I think someone better qualified than I like John Winters might comment
on boat design and weathercocking.  But I do know that the first year or
two of paddling I would find myself in the same predicament.  I was in
hardshells but that same zillion strokes on one side to one stroke on
the other side.  It just takes learning how to keep a boat going
straight.

> BTW, I'd be interested in knowing how others control the direction of a
> rudderless boat in similar conditions. Also, any thoughts on the effect
> of deckbags and other gear tied on the deck in regard to wind?

You have probably started a good discussion here.  I find that several
things work for me when a boat wants to turn on me:

1.  Choke up on the paddle with the longest part of the paddle on the
side toward which you are being pulled.  Choking up like that on the
paddle creates a turn in the opposite direction that counterbalances the
tendency of the boat to turn.

2.  Slide one cheek (the kind you sit on not the kind you smile with
:-)) toward the side toward which the boat wants to turn.  This makes
the boat lean on that side and creates a turning movement in the
opposite direction.

3. With every stroke on the side toward which the boat is being pulled,
lean the boat in that direction in the middle of your stroke.  Again
this creates a turn counter to the turning tendency of the boat.

4. Put a little bit more power in the stroke on the side toward which
the boat is being pulled; again this is a sweep that will turn you
slightly away from the boat's pull.

That is the basic set of things to do.  You do them in gradations and in
various mixes.  There are other variations too.  If you do these, you
seldom will have to double or triple up paddle strokes on one side.

I learned these with the Klepper Aerius single which always wanted to
turn into any wind of any magnitude or type.  Great boat for learning
such technique.  I have not found the K-Light at all behaving in this
way.  My current Nautiraid 1 acts somewhat that way though.

ralph diaz
--





Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:47:34 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] K-light

Merijn Wijnen wrote:

> Hi all,
> Someone has given me a rather good offer for a used 5 year old k-light
> (about $800 including 4-piece paddle, but that is converted from European
> currency). As the seller lives a bit to far away to test the boat, I have
> a few questions for the k-light owners on this list.
>
> Will the boat fit me, and leave some storage capacity for weekend trips
> (tent etc., limited amount of supplies, weight about 25 kg (40 lbs))?

That is an excellent price, whatever the year of manufacturer (the
K-Lights began production in April 1993)

Most definitely at your weight (listed below), you will have plenty of
room for gear.  I did an article awhile back on packing the K-Light.  I
weighed 162 at the time (now about 168).  And I was able to load all I
needed in the boat for 6 days of paddling/food.  I could have packed
more in the boat but I was limited because, for the article, I took only
what I physically could carry in public transportation (city bus, huge
terminal, commuter train, a walk to launch site) without using any form
of cart.  I think it appears on someone's webpage but I would be willing
to fax it to you if you wish.  After I did the article, I got several
people sending me letters or email saying that they had camped out of
the K-Light for 3 weeks in Alaska and northern climes that would have
required bigger sleeping bag, more clothing etc.  So it will work.  It
will, BTW, work for any small boat.  You don't need a big boat to camp
unless you weigh over 200 and therefore require more reserve capacity.

> I am one of the long and skinny variety, my length is 1.94 m (6'6''wink,
> feet size 13 (46 european), weight  80 kg (160 lbs). For comparison:
> I like a boat with a tigth fit, esspacially in the cockpit, e.g. a Khat-S
> cockpit is OK, K1 (old model) feels very wide. Feet space in Khat S is a
> bit tight, in K1 OK.

The foot pedals are certainly adjustable enough for your leg length.
You can get more length by reversing them (a simple procedure: take the
foot pedals and take out the bolt holding it to its mount then reverse
the foot pedal portion) if needed.  Your shoe size means that you will
likely have your feet pushing up on the deck fabric.  It will do no
harm.  If you angle your feet a bit (if comfortable) you won't have even
this protrusion.  The cockpit is not wide feeling at all.  You can lock
yourself in nicely in the boat.  You can add padding to the sling seat
near your hip if you want more snugness.  There are all sorts of way to
accomplish this in the K-Light.

> Will the boat with weekend loading still be nimble enough to handle well
> at sea in rough conditions?

Within reason.  Remember that you are in a boat just 13 feet long.
Rember the scene in the movie "Jaws" where they first go out and see the
size of the shark and one guy says to the other "I think we need a
bigger boat!"  Human nature generally dictates that at such times as
rough sea conditions, one tends to want something longer and more
substantial feeling around them.

It will remain nimble.  When I was writing that article, I launched at
the same time with my fully loaded boat as a fellow in a hardshell who
was just packed for a day trip.  Within about a mile or so, he said to
me "hey, that's a pretty fast boat."  So I was not dragging him back.

> Will the total loading slow down the boat so much that I will become a
> burden for my hardshell companions?

Depends on your companions.  If they are skilled, strong paddlers in
boat that are four and five feet longer than yours, then of course, if
they speed up and go toward the max speed of their hulls, you will not
be able to keep up.  But if they stick to 4 or 4.5 mph, you will be able
to.  The   K-Light, like many small boats, are agile and accelerate much
faster than longer boats.  But its top speed is not that of a much
longer boat.

ralph diaz
--





From: elias.ross@...
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:41:27 -0700
Subject: [Paddlewise] Fitting a small paddler into a folding boat

[I'm new to this list, I'll give a proper introduction later.]

My chief paddling companion is my wife, who is barely five feet tall.
She also lacks wide hips and finds most boats not for her size.  I have
had her try a few fiberglass hulls, such as the Pacific Water Sports
Wigeon, and from what I've heard the Mariner Elan would be a good fit as
well, but I've had my mind set on getting a folding boat for various
reasons.

I attended the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium with the hope of trying
out some Feathercraft folding kayaks, but was fairly disappointed that
even the K-Light was still a bit too big.  The cockpit seemed to clear
her elbows well enough but the foot pedals did not allow her to brace
her knees near the cockpit of the boat too well.  Having seen what
people have done with foam and pads to create a proper fit was
encouraging.  It seemed to me adding velcro strips for removable hip
pads might be a sufficient solution.  It seems knee pads that weren't
glued wouldn't be very strong.

It seems like it'd be pretty much impossible to have her fit well in a
kayak 25" wide like the K-Light, without having her bend her knees a
whole lot.  How much should a kayaker bend his knees?  I usually have
little more than a 20 degree bend, since my legs are quite long.  One of
the Feathercraft people said to just turn the foot brace around and it'd
be okay, like they were afraid they really didn't have a boat for her
size.

And then I wonder if I should just give up on the whole idea and get a
fiberglass boat and find a place to store it.





Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:11:32 +0000
Subject: [Paddlewise] Small paddler in a folding boat, Try Khatsalano
From: Rex Roberton

Was there a reason you did not try the demo Khatsalano?  It is 22 inches (56
cm) wide and 11.5 inches deep (29 cm).  It had their new inflatable hip
pads.  I got in it on Sunday, blew up the hip pads and had a instant, custom
fit.  It was very comfortable!  I've never been in a sea kayak "right out of
the factory" that had such a nice fit.  There were no knee braces but I did
not need any because my knees were against the skin and the cockpit tube
came across my thighs.  My knees and thighs were very comfortable.  With
this instant, "custom" fit, I was easily rolling the kayak and was even
rolling it without a paddle (hand rolls).

I can't answer your question about the foot rests but I'm sure you could
find a way to customize the foot rests for her.  I'm 5' 9" so there was no
problem for me.  Try contacting Doug Simpson, the owner, through their web
site (www.feathercraft.com, email at info@feathercraft.com) and I bet he
will have a answer for you.  I met him at the symposium and talked to him
several times.  Very nice and very helpful.

Rex Roberton  




From: elias.ross@...
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:20:32 -0700
Subject: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Kahuna

I also wanted to mention that Feathercraft had a new boat at the West
Coast Kayak Symposium called the "Kahuna" (which is a pretty lame name,
evoking images of Hawaii and surf dudes) that is the successor to the
K-Light.  The boat is merely a stretched version of the K-Light.
According to what the dealer said, the Kahuna has two more feet of
length, which would put it at about 14.5' in length.  Feathercraft also
had a variation on the Kahuna, called the Big Kahuna which had a larger
cockpit.  The price for the boat went up about $50 or so, and the weight
went up only a few more pound.

Alledgedly, they are coming out with inflatable waist pads for the
seat.  The dealer described it as a one-piece accessory that fit around
the seat and could be inflated for a better fit.  It's supposed to be in
production now.



Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:14:00 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Small paddler in a folding boat, Try
  Khatsalano

Since sometime in the 1920s, folding kayaks have occasionally been
outfitted with an assortment of devices to snug in on either the hips,
knees/thighs, or both.  I have seen illustrations of these from that
earlier period.

In more recent years, individuals have adapted their own using pads from
Banshee and other companies or devising their own.  And as pointed out
below, Feathercraft has a new device just being introduced now that
should fit all the models as far as I can tell (I am having one shipped
to me soon for a boat review).  BTW, I have seen smaller people than
your wife fit snuggly enough in the K-Light.  It always amazes me how
two people of the same size can have a totally different concept of
looseness and tightness in the same boat.

> cm) wide and 11.5 inches deep (29 cm).  It had their new inflatable hip
> pads.  I got in it on Sunday, blew up the hip pads and had a instant, custom
> fit.  It was very comfortable!  I've never been in a sea kayak "right out of
> the factory" that had such a nice fit.  There were no knee braces but I did
> not need any because my knees were against the skin and the cockpit tube
> came across my thighs.  My knees and thighs were very comfortable.  With
> this instant, "custom" fit, I was easily rolling the kayak and was even
> rolling it without a paddle (hand rolls).

This is that new device.  This insight from Rex also points out
something that people are unaware of...you can very effectively achieve
knee bracing by digging your knees into the deck material which will
give a little and provide an indentation for your knees.

> I can't answer your question about the foot rests but I'm sure you
> could find a way to customize the foot rests for her.

Everything can be fixed and modified in a folding kayak.  If you enter
the realm of folding kayaks, you will find a world of innovation and
modification.  We folding kayakers are doing it all the time and the
ideas and tips raised are the grist for my newsletter's mill.

best,

ralph  



Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:14:13 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Kahuna

The Kahuna is somewhat a stretched K-Light but there are marked
differences that hold a lot of promise.  The length went from 12 ft 10
inches to 14 feet 9 inches.  The weight is the virtually the same as the
pre-2000 version of the K-Light (35 pounds the Kahuna; 34.5 pounds for
the 1994-1999 K-Light).  The price differential is actually $80.  The
boat clearly will have more capacity in terms of volume and weight.  It
will track well and, with a more sharply tapered bow, will do better in
the water.

Basically when Feathercraft managed to get the K-Light down to 31 pounds
this year (a combo of new deck and hull material and RF-welding of
seams), it made the obvious decision of "why not take the weight
reduction gain and throw it back into the hopper to make the boat
longer".  Thus the Kahuna.  Also borrowing from the situation the
company faced in 1996 or so, it opted to offer two cockpit sizes.  In
that year, the company changed the K-light from the cockpit size of the
K-1 down to that of the Khats.  People were clamoring for the older size
and the company was forced to make a few more.  Now there is the Kahuna
(Khats size cockpit) and the Big Kahuna that has the K-1 size, about 7
inches longer and an inch wider if I recall correctly.

> Alledgedly, they are coming out with inflatable waist pads for the
> seat.  The dealer described it as a one-piece accessory that fit around
> the seat and could be inflated for a better fit.  It's supposed to be in
> production now.

Generally the seats in all the Feathercraft singles are the same in
setup.  So I can't imagine why any improvement could not be fitted into
any of them with a bit of savvy and adjustment.

The company is phasing out the K-Light.  I could write a long ode to the
K-Light but I will spare you plowing reading through one.  But the
K-Light remains a terrific boat and one should not hesitate to buy
something of its magnitude in just a 31 pound weight form.  Its speed
and the ability to keep up with all but the most determined person in a
much longer hardshell has always surprised both the K-Lighter and the
guy in that sleek boat.  It is manueverable, easy to assembly (if you
have the knack), light to carry.  Just a great boat whose performance
belied its smallish size.  The Kahuna is likely to be better yet.  I saw
one over the weekend but didn't get a chance to paddle it (it was at a
hugely successful swim escort support a number of us were doing on the
Hudson in a 7.8 mile swim along Manhattan's shoreline).  But I will.

ralph



From: "Matt Broze"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Small paddler in a folding boat, Try
  Khatsalano
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:18:32 -0700

Rex Roberton asked:

>>Was there a reason you did not try the demo Khatsalano? <<

I'm going to be a buttinski and suggest a few reasons because they might not
be obvious from a test paddle of any kayak in calm conditions.
But first, one obvious reason not to try it might be the huge price
difference. You wouldn't dare try it, you just might like it. Second there
is the issue of weight, advantage K-light.

For a paddler as small as described (under 5 feet) the Khatsalano with its
17-4 length and relatively stiff tracking is going to need a fairly strong
paddler to turn it in a strong wind. I don't mean someone strong for her
size I mean ultimate strength. She will be arm wrestling the wind and
offering the wind a much longer lever arm to use against her. Further, with
a stiffer tracking kayak (that can't be turned as quickly in the troughs
before the bow clears the crest and again faces the full strength of the
wind) you will essentially be allowing the wind to get a really good grip on
you. When you are protected somewhat from the wind in a trough, if you can't
make up more than the angle you lost to the wind at the crest of the last
wave crest then a turn just isn't going to happen. The shorter more
maneuverable K-light has a big edge here especially for a smaller, lighter
paddler (or any one of more limited arm wrestling ability). It is not
strength to weight ratio that counts here it is ultimate strength. The
lighter paddler is at the further disadvantage of floating higher out of the
water and therefore exposing more of the kayak to the wind. Gear weight in
the kayak helps a lot here as the mass in the ends keeps the kayak from
swinging around so quickly at the wave crest.

The K-light cuts its wetted surface (friction) by being shorter and as Ralph
pointed out, its speed can surprise a lot of kayakers, especially those
saddled by the mistaken, but common, belief that longer is always faster
(see FAQ's on our website for more details on this). The Khats cuts its
wetted surface by being narrower so my guess is drag below 4 knots is
probably pretty even between the two. Total useable gear storage space is
about the same in the two kayaks as well so there is no advantage to either
there. So the differences are price, weight, cockpit fit and handling in
strong winds.  The Khats's lower cockpit rim (same size as K-light's rim)
and bridge truss style stiffening tubes/thighbraces does give a better fit
to a smaller paddler but I'm sure much can be done to improve the fit on the
K-light (if it really needs to be improved--which I'm not so sure of-- I'll
bet that after owning a K-light for a while you will find it doesn't need as
much modification as you think it does now).
My advice is to get a K-light while you still can. The Kahuna promises to be
the kayak that a lot of folks are looking for. More capacity/reasonable
price and better suited in reserve buoyancy for heavier paddlers. I think
Feathercraft is making a mistake to discontinue the K-light though. The
Kahuna will cut into the K-light's market seriously for sure, but the
K-light will still likely be the better choice for smaller paddlers. My
advice would be to direct it more at smaller paddlers by shortening the
footpads and narrowing up and possibly lowering the cockpit slightly. I vote
to keep the K-light in the line and will tell that to Feathercraft the next
time I talk to someone there.
I threw out my back testing/lifting heavy stiff tracking kayaks on Saturday
so didn't get to try the Kahuna on Sunday at the Symposium along with many
others I wanted to try.  Did you try the Sterns 1K-116 inflatable at $299. I
tried many little recreational hardshell kayaks at the symposium on Saturday
and was mostly disappointed. I was impressed by the Sterns inflatable,
probably partly because it paddled way better than I had expected and had a
comfortable "seat" (and partly because I was so disappointed in most of the
other sub 12 foot kayaks I tested). Now if Sterns would get rid of the
stupid fingernail snagging grab loops they recently added to the front of
the once wonderfully smooth rub pad that protected my arms from the abrasive
nylon on the rest of the tubes I'd be happier still. As it is I guess I
could cut the grab loops away, the kayak is so light they really aren't
needed (I heard they were added so that folks would use them rather than try
to pick up the boat using the edge of the zippered spraydeck. My advice is
beef that up with the same husky webbing used for the finger snagger handles
and let them use it. $299 and packs down to about a third the volume of a
K-light. Seems perfect for that plane trip taken for other reasons (than
camping out of a kayak), but where you have a little time in a new local to
explore a few of the local waterways. I suggested to Chris Cunningham that
he ought to try it out. He even Eskimo rolled it.


Matt Broze



Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:48:31 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Small paddler in a folding boat, Try
  Khatsalano

Matt Broze wrote:

> The K-light cuts its wetted surface (friction) by being shorter and as Ralph
> pointed out, its speed can surprise a lot of kayakers, especially those
> saddled by the mistaken, but common, belief that longer is always faster
> (see FAQ's on our website for more details on this).

I am glad you make this same point.  Paddlers are lemmings in how much
they follow some general concept like the one about length or for that
matter the concept of width.  The K-Light is as fast as many longer
boats except perhaps at top speeds, but who can paddle at top speed all
the time?  The K-Light has the beauty of paddling almost effortlessly at
a cruising speed of around 4 knots and has lots of glide between
strokes.  I do an energy conserving stroke (I am over 60 and not in the
best of shape) in which I take a longer more powerful stroke with each
paddle dip with a split second rest before the next dip.  So if you see
me paddling alongside another paddler, he is stroking much more than I
am.  The K-Light allows that because of its great glide between
strokes.  It is also relatively easy to get it up to speed as it is so
light and agile with little inertia to overcome. \

Oh the point about width.  Many of the folding kayaks are often some 4
inches wider than hardshells.  But that is up high at the deck seem
level where the sponsons flare out.  If you look at the cross section
that is actually being pushed through the water it is significantly
narrower.  If you get a folding kayak in which you don't sink it to the
point that its sponsons are constantly in contact with the water, you
have less to push through the water.

> My advice is to get a K-light while you still can. The Kahuna promises to be
> the kayak that a lot of folks are looking for. More capacity/reasonable
> price and better suited in reserve buoyancy for heavier paddlers. I think
> Feathercraft is making a mistake to discontinue the K-light though. The
> Kahuna will cut into the K-light's market seriously for sure, but the
> K-light will still likely be the better choice for smaller paddlers. My
> advice would be to direct it more at smaller paddlers by shortening the
> footpads and narrowing up and possibly lowering the cockpit slightly. I vote
> to keep the K-light in the line and will tell that to Feathercraft the next
> time I talk to someone there.

I too am disappointed to see that the K-Light is being discontinued.
For those with K-Lights that they wish to sell, the resale value should
go up quite a bit.  They will offer a premium package for some
paddlers.  I have not talked with Feathercraft about this much but I
think what happened is that in effect they changed the model so much
that it really needed a new name.  The same has happened all along with
the company's K-1.  It has borne that name since the early 1980s but it
has radically changed, so much that it could have easily been called the
Granville (for the island in Vancouver where the factory is located) or
anything else.  At one point, it was not much longer than the new Kahuna
(Kahuna 14 ft 9 in; the 1980s K-1 without coaming around 15 feet and a
couple of inches) Even in 1998, the company changed the K-1 so much
(length earlier had creeped up to 15 ft 10 in and then with the latest
change to 16.5 feet; but the frame also was completely overhauled and
the bow made to look like that on the Khats with a fine entry point)
that in my review I stated that they probably should have changed the
name because it was now a different boat.  In a sense Feathercraft may
just be wanting to recognize that the Kahuna is a K-Light so radically
changed (significant length addition plus sharper bow, plus a
significant frame change) that it is a new model.

Matt mentioned something about Feathercraft should perhaps lower the
cockpit rim on the K-Light and continue to sell it for smaller
paddlers.  In there lies a probably for Feathercraft.  The
K-Light/Kahuna are the only model(s) produced by the company that has
injection molded crossribs (of polycarbonate) instead of being cut by
machine individually from large slabs of polyethylene.  The costs of the
molds and machinery is so great that the Kahuna will have the exact same
4 injection molded crossribs as the K-Light.  Feathercraft simply could
not justify now reducing the cockpit height on the K-Light (which would
require lowering the height of crossribs #2 and #3).

BTW, the Kahuna looks terrific.  Elongating the K-Light by two feet (12
ft 10 inches to 14 feet 9 inches) has made the boat look sleeker
especially with its more narrow sharp and slightly uplifted bow.
Changing only $80 more is also a plus.

ralph diaz




From: "Wendy Ogaki"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Small paddler in a folding boat, Try
  Khatsalano
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:25:42 GMT

I bought the Khats this spring and at 5'3" am still struggling to get a good
tight fit in it.  The foot pegs were positioned on the reinforcement bars
but Feathercraft is going to do a retrofit for me to put them back on the
chines.  Without getting this correction, it's pretty difficult to brace
properly.  (I'm going to check with Feathercraft on those new hip pads.)

I had tried various things to get a tight fit -- moving my seat up or would
have to sit in an almost yoga position to get my thighs to be touching the
sides of the boat which was a tad bit uncomfortable after awhile, even for
an ex-gymnast.

I'd say for someone 5', it will probably be way too big.




From: Walt Levins
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:07:01 EDT
Subject: [Paddlewise] k-light

    I own a k-light and a pygmy arctic tern. I don't mean to ruffle any
feathers but my arctic tern is definitely a faster boat. And I mean at
cruising speed. Oh, the k-light is a great little boat and I keep it for its
portability but in no way can it match my hardshell in performance. Just
telling it like it is from my experience.

Walt Levins
Portland,Or.




Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:05:25 -0400
From: Nick Schade
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] k-light

It is kind of unfair to compare one given foldable with another given
hardshell and then make a generalization about the whole class of boats.
There are going to be hardshell kayaks slower than your K-light and a
foldable could be made which is faster than your arctic tern. Even if the
K-light was exactly the same shape as the Arctic Tern it could be some
reason other than the soft skin which makes the boat slower. It could be
because the rubber is rougher than gel-coat.
Nick


Guillemot Kayaks
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/

>>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<<




From: [Ralph Hoehn]
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:34:14 EDT
Subject: [Paddlewise] Soft- and Hard-Shelled Boats

Nick Schade writes:
<< It is kind of unfair to compare one given foldable with another given
hardshell and then make a generalization about the whole class of boats. ... >>

Hear, hear, Sir.

But was this really a case of hard shell vs. soft skin? Walt did stress that he
values his K-Light for its particular strength, namely its portability ...

At about 6:45 pm, crossing 5th Avenue last Friday, I was almost run over by a
tall, athletic looking male pedaling a folding bicycle against traffic on 36th
Street. As I turned for the double take, I noticed a large black pack on his back
with a Feathercraft logo. Could it be that this lucky person was about to pedal
his bike to the banks of the Hudson, unfold his boat, fold up his bike and stow it,
then paddle a while before reversing the procedure and pedaling home happy and
relaxed?

What a way to start the weekend!

Would the guilty party own up, please?

Best regards,
The Other Ralph
Ralph@PouchBoats...



                      


From: "PeterO"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Kahuna questions
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:15:34 +1100

Richard Best wrote

> Anyway, in the end I bought the Kahuna. It's a
> remarkable kayak: very portable, easy assembly
> with a bit of practice, comfortable, stable and
> quite fast enough

G'Day, Richard and paddlewise,

You mentioned your favourable experience with the Kahuna and this leads me
to ask a few questions also. Maybe you can help? I've heard many good
reports on this boat and have frequently been tempted to buy it except for
one bad report from a local who was desperately disappointed because one of
the ribs cut into his legs making it almost unbearably uncomfortable for
him. As I'm still tempted and don't have access to try one out, can anyone
tell me if this boat is likely to fit a 6 foot 1.5 inch 11 stone male. Also
is it suitable for up to 20 knots wind and/or 2 metre sea (i.e grade 3
conditions by the NSWKC standards). Also how long does it take to assemble,
disassemble, clean and stow away on an average day?

All the best, PeterO

                                                                    


From: "Richard Best"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kahuna questions
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:37:17 -0000

Dear Peter and all,
   Feathercraft make plastic tabs that velcro onto the crossribs if they dig
into your legs. I don't use them, but the Khatsalano I tried had them, and
they really felt comfortable.
   I'm 5' 10" and find the Kahuna quite comfortable, after finding the
position for the seat sling that suits me best.
   I haven't been out in conditions as challenging as 2m waves etc. so I
can't comment!
   It takes me 30 minutes to assemble, though I think I will reduce that
with practice, and probably half that to disassemble. I spent about half an
hour at home fussing over it, cleaning it up, and roll the skin back up
later once it's dry.
   Best wishes,
   Richard

                                                                    


From: "Severn Clay"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kahuna questions
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:37:32 -0500

PeterO,
I'm a 6'0" 190-lb paddler (I don't know that in stones) who recently bought
a used Kahuna.  It is my first boat, and I have to say that though I have
little experience with many other boats, I'm quite happy with it.  It moves
very easily in the water, and is a very cozy fit (this is a normal, not a
Big, Kahuna).  I take it apart after every paddle, and assembly time is down
to a leisurely 20-25 minutes.  I bought it from a local dealer specifically
because I could take a class in a demo boat and because he showed me how to
assemble and disassemble it.  The Feathercraft video is ok (and endearingly
Canadian), but there is no substitute for the reinforcement of seeing the
actual boat being assembled close up.

It took me awhile to get used to the sea sock, but in chilly weather it
gives the boat a pleasant sleeping-bag-like feel.  The foot pedals do not
feel as secure as I would like, especially through the sea sock (there was
an article on fixing this in the last Folding Kayaker Newsletter, though no
particularly elegant solutions [sorry]).  I haven't had any problems with
the ribs cutting into my legs, but the seat is remarkably adjustable and I
have yet to identify what configuration corresponds to lumbar bliss (I got
it once).  The backpack is a bit heavier than I expected, and the straps
aren't comparable to a typical hiking pack for comfort and fit,  but being
6'0" tall is a bonus here because I CAN carry it fairly easily through the
subways without a cart.  It weathercocks a little, but nothing that can't be
corrected by leaning.

Can't tell you about the 20 knot winds and 2-meter seas yet.
That, with many caveats, is my review...

Best,
Severn Clay

                                                                    


From: "drsm"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kahuna questions
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:28:01 -0500

PeterO:

I'm 5'11" and 145 lb. and just acquired a Kahuna this year. I like it a lot.
It's light and takes maybe 30 minutes to assemble. I suspect the assembly
time can be shortened to just over 20 minutes with practice. I've only had
it out in 15 knot winds and 3 foot waves, but it handled well. I found it
easier to maneuver than my old Skerray (probably due to weight and length
considerations. The biggest pleasant surprise for me has been the seat--very
comfortable. I do have to pack a couple things beside my hips to reduce a
tendency to slide to the side in the seat, though.

Steve

                                                                    


From: "ralph diaz"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kahuna questions
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:19:51 -0500

Feathercraft has an accessory, Hip Fit Kit, that provides hip padding for
those who feel they are sliding around in the seat or want to have extra
hold for rolling.

ralph diaz



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Post #35
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04
From: ralph diaz
Subject: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000


I got this heads-up from a fellow PaddleWiser:

-------------
Hey, Ralph -- did you see this?

http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/
-------------

Basically it is an article made up of two parts.  The first part is of
boorish behavior by a bunch of kayakers who pull up on to a dock on a
private island in broad daylight and then proceed to defecate, pee,
crawl all over the place.  The second part has to do with the Commando
Camping section of the Camping section of my book in which I go through
the necessity of sometimes having to commando camp (I believe, BTW, that
I coined the phrase...not the practice as I know kayakers and long range
bicyclists have done this for just about forever) and suggesting ways of
doing so that are non-disruptive to the property and privacy of the
location.

The author of the article takes me to task for what I wrote.  While like
any good author she does pitch her quotes from my book to prove her
point, they are not out of context although parts are left out that have
more provisos than I guess she could get into her column.

My problem with her column is a question of balance.  While it makes for
a good column for her to put the two parts of the article together (the
guys trashing the island and my suggestions for non-obtrusive commando
camping when you need to camp on private property or not sleep that
night at all, I believe it lacks a perception of degrees and a sense of
balance.  One form of behavior is offensive and disrespectful, the other
not offensive and disrespectful.

Anyway, this may be a good place to discuss the parameters of behavior
of kayakers.  I would like your take on this in PaddleWise.

I think there are degrees of behavior.  My advice of the need of
commando camping was toward being unobtrusive and only when you have
little choice in a long-range paddling situation.

BTW, on the question of asking permission, I made a distinction in the
book between asking permission to camp of a property owner in a remote
area (my suggestion is always ask in such a situation) and in a
populated area (my suggestion is not ask).  I was thinking of vacation
home people mainly in the latter.  A farmer in a remote place will
almost aways say yes.  A vacation home owner is more resentfully
guarding of his property and will likely say no and call the sheriff or
make a citizen's arrest.

ralph diaz  

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."




From: "Bill Hansen"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000  

I'm not sure if, in his letter to PW, Ralph refers only to emergency
camping, or what he calls "commando" camping, or to camping at all times.
Either way, I'm inclined to think one should always ask if it's possible to
ask. And I don't think non-emergency camping should be ever done on private
property unless we've secured permission in advance (that is, if you can't
reach the owners, just don't camp there). The more often we trespass (that's
what it is, without permission) on someone's private space, the more
resentment we stir up against all kayakers and other campers. That's true
regardless of how good we are as stewards of the camping place while we're
there.

As for the question of camping behavior, I heartily endorse the concept of
"leave no trace" camping, including the omission of all fires (except the
very rare fire which might be needed to re-warm a hypothermic person **who
could not be safely re-warmed by another technique**). Cleaning up any
refuse we find at a campsite is also good environmental practice and good
public relations.

Bill Hansen
Ithaca NY



Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:23:11 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior

I was unabashedly referring to non-emergency camping as well as
emergency.

On long stretches of paddling waters, it really is hard to avoid camping
on private property.  My first choice is to find some railroad or
utilities property such as we have along the Hudson River or a quiet
sparsely visited corner of some parkland.  While there is a Hudson River
Watertrail, most people who have paddled its length have had to do some
commando camping since the legal sites are not evenly spaced.  It is
hard to figure out places to seek permission.  Again, using the Hudson
as an example, you can plan to cover x miles in a day but nature may
conspire against you so that you won't reach the intended spot in time
where you may have gotten permission or is a legal camp site.  The RR
right of way often has little outcroppings of land where you can pull up
safely.  It is private property, i.e. railroad property, but you are not
intruding on an individual property owner.  Maybe my Jesuit-education
induced splitting hairs is emerging. I am not sure St. Thomas Aquinas
would agree, albeit he was the ultimate hair-spitter in his Summa
Theologica.

What I am driving at are balance and discretion.  It is one thing to
pull up to some individual's private property and camp on a person's
lawn disrupting his/her life.  It is another thing to find a corner of
that person's property, out-of-sight and out-of-the-way and do minimal
impact camping with no noise or disruptive intrusion.  Obviously, first
opt for RR or utilities property owned by a legal person as opposed to a
real person or some corner of parkland.  Then consider the non-intrusive
"commando" camping.  The whole point of using the term commando is to
denote clearly that; like a commando you make your presence unknown
while you are there and no trace of you remains after you leave.  The
term commando was picked with considerable thought.  If one wants to
emphasize the sneakiness of it that is fine.  My point was the invisible
presence a la commandos.

I am just being realistic.  If you do do successful commando camping,
and I codify the approaches that assure that you can, then you are not
disturbing anything and are not creating a bad image for sea kayakers.
It isn't a matter of not getting caught.  It is a matter of being so
inconspicious that you won't.

For example, on the question of an open fire, I came down hard on that
in the commando camping part of the Camping chapter.  No open fires.  A
self contained camping stove fire is another thing.

Again, what I stated in the book got a lot of comment from real life
people who either have done a lot of multi-day kayak camping or
bicycling.  Perhaps my mistake was in openly discussing commando camping
and codifying it.  But I felt a lot of people don't know about just how
low-impact you can get in camping.  My book has a lot of off-beat things
to say.  Some people get worked up like the author of that webzine piece
I cite.  Others take it in stride and are thankful.

Take your pick.  But I do welcome the discussion.

BTW when I had 10 acres of property in the Catskills I never posted no
traspessing signs etc.  I felt that I did not really own the trees,
rocks and earth in my deed but only a right to build on it.  Obviously I
did not want someone to build open fires and burn down the trees.  But I
had an open fireplace on a large flat boulder that people were welcome
to use.  During hunting season, I would occasionally see signs that some
hunters had used the woodpile to build a warming fire.  I was not worked
up over this.

ralph diaz




Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 08:33:57 -0700
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior

Well, I read her piece (http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/), and I have read
Ralph's piece in his book about commando camping.  If I were in a situation
where I **had** to camp on private property, I'd ask, always, because only
extreme fatigue or unsafe paddling conditions would cause me to bivouac on
private land.  And, I suspect there are few landowners who would deny me a safe
harbour under those conditions.

The boorish behaviour described in the article is a set piece for encouraging
landowners to get their elected representatives to pass restrictive legislation
on the use of riparian zones adjacent to streams and lakes.  In Oregon, we have
had a couple nasty fights over how the use of the "streambed" is regulated by
law.  Responsible paddlesport advocates (thank you, Steve and Cindy Scherrer of
Alder Creek Kayak Supply) spent a lot of time and some of their money fending
off restrictive legislation ... in exchange for educating the paddling public
on good manners and presenting a good exterior to streamside landowners.

Commando camping would not fit under that umbrella.

In some parts of Washington (the San Juans, for example), shoreside landowners
have had so many bad experiences with sea kayakers that they have put political
pressure to work, restricting access to launch points, and in one case banding
together to buy up the one primo beach on Shaw Island suitable for yak
launching.  (I should hasten to add this is not all the fault of sea kayakers.
There is an "attitude" on the parts of many owners in the San Juans that sea
kayakers are part of the "rabble."  Can you say wealthy but not nice?)

Using a private beach for illicit camping will only make this situation worse,
and for that reason, I won't do it.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR





Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000
From: Jerry Hawkins
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior

I've been an occassional commando camper while backpacking and bicycling.  
You learn some techniques that make it more-or-less OK, even if you are
discovered.  The no open fires rule is the best and most obvious.  Nothing
will get you thrown out faster than building a fire on someone else's place.

Some young adults I ran into on one trip were shocked that I spent most
nights at legal campgrounds.  They economized by commandoing at every
opportunity.  In much of the Pacific Northwest, there are small towns
strung out every 5-10 miles or even further apart.  Every town has a
cemetary.  They would find some tree covered spot on the edge of the
cemetary and camp nearly every night.

A brother and sister, about 19 and 17, told me their technique.  Early in
the evening the young lady would approach a nice house with an empty water
container.  She would ask to fill the water -- she was never refused.  Then
she would ask if there were camping spots anywhere nearby.  She said that
over 50% of the time she would be offered a lawn, or in some cases a trailer
or a room for free.

My own technique was more mundane.  Look for a place with either no fences,
or untended fences.  Camp out of sight of both houses and roads.  Leave
absolutely no trace.  Sometimes there would be surprises -- like cows
surrounding the tent in the morning, or a fellow who stopped on the road
which we were sure we were out of sight of, and asking, "you fellows want
a better place to camp than that?"  After camping we would try to leave at
or even before dawn.  

The only problem I've ever experienced was one incident commando camping
at a closed National Forest campground on the Klamath River.  (We were
biking, not paddling.)  There is nothing like getting to the only campground
for 20 miles and finding it unexpectedly closed.  We quietly crossed the
barrier and set up camp out of sight.  About 8 guys from a motorcycle gang
got roughly the same idea about 2 hours later, but after racing their bikes
around and smashing some tequila bottles they got bored and left, thank
goodness.

jerry.





From: dmccarty
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior/Trespassing

>>
I think there are degrees of behavior.  My advice of the need of
commando camping was toward being unobtrusive and only when you have
little choice in a long-range paddling situation.

BTW, on the question of asking permission, I made a distinction in the
book between asking permission to camp of a property owner in a remote
area (my suggestion is always ask in such a situation) and in a
populated area (my suggestion is not ask).  I was thinking of vacation
home people mainly in the latter.  A farmer in a remote place will
almost always say yes.  A vacation home owner is more resentfully
guarding of his property and will likely say no and call the sheriff or
make a citizen's arrest.
>>

Hmmm.  By and large I think I aggree with what you saying.  I don't like
the idea of commando camping at all but I understand the problem.

I'll give my viewpoint as a landowner who is currently facing a similar
problem with trespassers.

My wifey and I just bought some land that is somewhat out in the country.
The property is in the planning zone of a small town and our property
ajoins a subdivision.  It took us three years of looking and hard work to
find this place.  It will take many, many, more years of hard work to get
the property into the condition of our dreams.  Its also going to take some
careful planning, saving, and managing of finances to pay for the land.

I'm out on the property almost every week working.  I mean working.  Using
a 25 pound chain saw is WORK.  I mean WORK!  I work out and run so I'm in
at least some degree of fitness.  Wearing trousers, long sleeve shirt,
gloves, and chain saw chaps in high humidity/temps operating a chain saw
will BEAT and EAT you.  Clearing road ways, septic fields, driveways, yada
yada yada is just plain hard work.  You have to fight the ticks, the
chiggers and the squeeters.  Last Friday I wore the wrong socks and the
$%^&*( chiggers got me again.  I have about one hundred bites on my legs
that have finally gone to the bleeding stage.  This is actually good
because you don't itch at this point.  If you have never been lunch for
chiggers you don't understand what itching is all about.  Squeeter bites
are NOTHING compared to chiggers.  Chiggers itch for 3-4 days and I do mean
itch.  Itching so bad you have to take Benydral to get some sleep.

You need a strong back and maybe a weak mind to work like this!  8-)

I think most landowners become attached to their property.  The more they
own I think the more they are attached at least to a point.  There is a
VAST difference between how I feel about the house I own and the land I
own.  I value the land far more than the house.  Working the land, sweating
for it, itching/bleeding on it and in my case fighting to actually acquire
the property brings a certain degree of closeness to the land.  It also
makes one a wee bit protective.  8-)

Buying a house is easy.  Very easy.  Buying raw land requires working with
soil engineers, agents. deceitful/stupid country officials, timber agents,
loggers, lawyers, and very tough tax issues.  And then there are the
neighbors.....

The land we bought has never been developed or farmed.  It has only grown
trees and wildlife.  Well, there is the old still fire box that I found,
but except for a bit of moonshine the boys made sometime in the past the
property has only grown trees and wildlife.  There is a subdivision
fronting my property and a state road leads into the subdivision.
State/county road responsibility ends and the road continues well up into
my land.  I and three others own various portions of the road and are
responsible for its upkeep.  When I bought the land you could not walk up
the road due to the young pines and hardwoods that had grown over the road.
I spent many a weekend clearing the trees from the right of way on my land
with a trimmer and a chainsaw.  WORK!  Hard, hot, dangerous, dirty,
tick/chigger infested work.  Needless to say I'm not touching a paddle much
this year.....  8-(

Which finally brings me to the issues Ralph wants to discuss.

Some of the neighbors have made it a point to come out and introduce
themselves while I have been working.  They are very nice people and are
going to make great neighbors.  Then there are The Others.  In fact some
have called the Sheriff because they did not like logging trucks using the
public road. Huh? The road in question is a public road paid for by taxes.
So trucks can't use it?  The deputy got a good laugh out of the call.

I have had other people just walk/drive right up MY road on MY land,
passing me 10 feet away and not even saying hello!  Not even looking at me
and acknowledging my existence. That is just plain RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL.
Its happened THREE times by different families.  While working this weekend
I had two more families who saw that the road was open, started down the
road and then saw me and left.  I was kinda hoping to meet them but they
just left. Some of the people who have done this I know are using the road
and my land for the own recreation yet they don't have the courtesy to
introduce themselves and ask permission?

To say I'm annoyed is an understatement.  One or two people I can
understand but five different families are so lacking in common courtesy?
I have gone out of my way to be neighborly and even though the people who
have come onto the property have acted rudely, I still have talked to them
in a friendly manner.  I certainly have not earned this rudeness.

So....

The land is getting posted in the next couple of weekends.  The people who
have made it a point to be neighbors I told long ago they could walk the
road if they so desired and that will not change.  But the other people
will be trespassed.  Part of this is because of their rudeness but a larger
concern is .......

The big bad LIABILITY issue.  My understanding of North Carolina law is
that there are three levels of liability for a landowner.  The best and
most efficient way for me to protect my investment in the property and my
own family's finances is to post the land.  This makes it very difficult
for someone who is trespassing my property to sue me if a dead branch falls
out of a tree and hits them on the head.  If the land is NOT posted then
they have a slightly better case against the land owner. If I charge
someone to use the land in some manner then I am most exposed to liability
lawsuits.

Civility and politeness really goes far when trying to use someone elses
property.  Using and abusing someone's property as in the story of the dock
owner in the article gives kayakers a bad name.  But also understand the
landowner have their own concerns and responsibilities.



Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000
From: Jackie Fenton
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior

I second (or third) Dave and Bill's comments.  If you only ask permission
when you believe you will receive it and don't ask when you are pretty
sure you aren't going to receive it, then the act of asking at all is
meaningless.  Folks' doors to their homes do not begin and end at a
structure, imo (and also the opinion of their insurer and tax assessor).  
Neither should a kayaker's manners or respect for private property.  
Property owners have no way to determine who will leave no trace or will
leave their trash and feces behind.  How will it be determined that you
were the group that left no trace or it was the group right behind you
that decided not to ask and held a party in the same spot?

Tamia Nelson makes a good point in her comment "If there's any better way
to make enemies for paddlesport, I can't think of it."  The law is almost
always on the side of the property owner.  If paddlers continue to disregard
the laws, we will all pay the price.

Regards,

Jackie



From: "Seng, Dave"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000

  A lot of good points on both sides of this subject have been made.  One
thing that I've gotten out of the discussion is that, like with so many
other things, you need to carefully choose the time and place if you're
going to attempt "commando camping".  Trying to do it in high use, high
profile areas (like the San Juan islands in Washington State) is probably
not wise - both for you as an individual, and for the general reputation of
paddlers, campers, hikers, bikers, and others who generally try to exercise
no/low impact camping.  In other places it's a lot more feasible.  I don't
think it's a black & white issue.  Pick your spot, pick your time, and use
some common sense.
  If you come visit us in SE Alaska you'll find that you can camp almost
anywhere that you can find a flat enough (and dry enough!) spot for a tent -
but just be aware that the local residents will _always_ know exactly where
you're camped - and can exact a heavy toll for mistakes.  Sometimes though -
as in the recent BC wolf attack - they end up paying the price with _their_
lives.

Dave Seng
Juneau, Alaska



Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000
From: Wes Boyd
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior


At 11:23 AM 7/6/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote:

In general, I'd have to say that "commando" camping isn't a good idea. That
is, in general -- there may be some specific exceptions.

I'm going to head a little off-topic here. Until the end of last month, I
was the editor of "North Star -- The Magazine of the North Country Trail".
In that position, I got to know some memorable characters.  One guy, in
particular is as serious a hiker as I've ever known -- he spends upwards of
200 days a year on some trail or other, to the tune of several thousand
miles a year. He is, as far as I know, the only person to have end-to-ended
all eight of the National Scenic Trails (I'm not absoulutely sure about
that -- a while back he hadn't done the Natchez Trace, but it was on his
list and he's had the time). In addition, he's done several
transcontinental walks, and hiked many other trails. His opinion is that
it's impossible to do most of the National Scenic Trails without "stealth"
camping, which he had done a lot of. On some "trails" -- such as the
American Discovery, especially in the midwest, although the North Country
has some long dry stretches -- it can be hundreds of miles between places
where there's places to legally camp. We're talking pretty stealthy, too --
get in late, unroll the bivy, no cooking in camp, and be on the road by
dawn. He has been known to ask permission, but he's spent many a night in a
cornfield without anyone being the wiser. But, that's a long way from
trashing a posted area, such as was mentioned in the first part of the
paddlers.net article.

Speaking for myself, I generally prefer to plan boat camping trips in
places where there is adequate public land to allow legal camping. But, as
Ralph points out, it isn't always the case. For instance, I've given some
though to end-to-ending the Mississippi (I don't know where I'd ever find
the time, but it's a fun intellectual exercise to consider.) In a situation
like that, there are going to be plenty of places where it's necessary to
stop, but where there aren't adequate public lands to be able to do so.
And, in many places, it may be impossible to find someone to ask. My first
choice in such a situation would be to find someone to ask, if possible --
"Any place around here where I can camp for the night?" -- but if the area
is so uninhabited that there's no one to ask, and there's no posting of
property, I'd probably not worry too much about it.


>>
"commando" camping.  The whole point of using the term commando is to
denote clearly that; like a commando you make your presence unknown
while you are there and no trace of you remains after you leave.  The
term commando was picked with considerable thought.  If one wants to
emphasize the sneakiness of it that is fine.  My point was the invisible
presence a la commandos.
>>

My friend uses the term "stealth camping", which I think I prefer. Commando
implies some sort of assault. But, it's your book.

>>
For example, on the question of an open fire, I came down hard on that
in the commando camping part of the Camping chapter.  No open fires.  A
self contained camping stove fire is another thing.
>>

Yeah, that has nothing to do with the concept. My hiking friend rarely even
cooked in his overnight camp -- he felt there were better places.


>>
bicycling.  Perhaps my mistake was in openly discussing commando camping
and codifying it.  But I felt a lot of people don't know about just how
low-impact you can get in camping.  My book has a lot of off-beat things
>>

I know the feeling. As the North Star editor, I several times thought about
doing an article about "stealth camping", but figureed that I'd get enough
static about it that I really shouldn't. No guts, I guess.


>>
BTW when I had 10 acres of property in the Catskills I never posted no
traspessing signs etc.  I felt that I did not really own the trees,
rocks and earth in my deed but only a right to build on it.  Obviously I
>>

There is much private property that is unposted for that reason. It's
rarely advertised, since people don't want it known. Unfortunately, it's
becoming less and less all the while -- and for obivous reasons.

-- Wes



From: "Jack Fu"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior - commando pooping
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000

This may not be an appealing subject, but someone aught
to bring it up.

Even if you have a cat hole trowel and dig a deep enough
hole and cover your poop and paper up with dirt afterwards,
you still leave what I'll call for lack of a better word
a disturbance of the land. A much better idea is to carry
some heavy duty trash bags, do your number in one, and
CARRY THE WHOLE THING OUT with you until you can find a
proper way to dispose of it.

As for fires, you should not build a fire on someone's property
even if you are sure it cannot be seen. Put yourself in the
property owner's place. Would you like strangers building
fires on your land?


From: Kasia
Subject: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000

I've been reading with interest the E-conversation about what's been
referred to as "commando" camping. Out here in Washington state I (and
like-minded friends) call it "guerrilla camping."

As a single woman paddler/cyclist/hiker/wanderer who often travels alone, I
feel that it's generally safer for me to camp in a spot that pretty well
conceals the fact that I'm there. I think it's generally safer for me to
guerrilla-camp than it is for me to stay in a motel! When I camp, I pretty
much take up a minimal amount of space -- just enough for me and my boat or
pack or bike. It would never occur to me to start a fire or do anything else
that would advertise that I was there. In fact, I rarely even set up a tent,
not only because it could draw attention, but also because it would slow me
down if for some reason I had to exit in a hurry.

Anyway, I have never asked permission of anyone to stay anywhere, largely
because I don't want people to know I'm sleeping out under the stars all by
my lonesome. It's not that I don't think that it's a courtesy to ask
permission, it's just that I'm less interested in courtesy than in in my own
personal safety. Presumably none of you male paddlers ever have to think
this way.

I would like to note the difference in the terms used to describe this kind
of camping. Webster's says a "commando" is "a member of a small fighting
force specially trained for making quick, destructive raids." On the other
hand, "guerrilla" is defined as "a member of an irregular force operating in
small groups capable of great speed and mobility." I like to think that my
secret camping has less to do with destructive raids than with speed and
mobility! In fact, I often pick my guerrilla camping spot after dark (so as
to ensure that the spot I've chosen doesn't turn out to be the local teenage
party haunt, and also to reduce the chance that anyone will see me), and
generally bug out by dawn.

Any other women guerrilla campers out there?



Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000
From: Jackie Fenton
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

>>
As a single woman paddler/cyclist/hiker/wanderer who often travels alone, I
feel that it's generally safer for me to camp in a spot that pretty well
conceals the fact that I'm there.
>>

And what do you plan to do when whomever it is you are hiding from finds
you while you are out there all alone?  I'm surprised at the number of
people who think they are unobserved when in fact, locals often
know you are there.  Some react, some do not.  If the owner doesn't know
you are there at that time, often they find out later.  Some are not
amused.

I've camped alone plenty of times in campgrounds and on public land and
never felt threatened.  I'd rather be visible to other campers than
camped in a remote area alone where I was not supposed to be.  I reserve
the really remote primitive camping that I do on public land and away
from campgrounds for those trips with myself and one or more other
persons if I am concerned about my safety as a female paddler.

>>
Anyway, I have never asked permission of anyone to stay anywhere, largely
because I don't want people to know I'm sleeping out under the stars all by
my lonesome. It's not that I don't think that it's a courtesy to ask
permission, it's just that I'm less interested in courtesy than in in my own
personal safety.
>>

A lot of folks own land in remote areas because they, too, are seeking
privacy and solitude far from the maddening crowd. I would say be aware
that it is possible at some point an owner is going to decide to press
charges and my guess would be that any court would have more sympathy to
the owner's right to privacy on their own property than your need to feel
safe while out exploring freedom through camping alone.

Paddlers tresspassing to camp on private land without permission sounds
like a good argument for boat registration. (sigh)

Regards,

Jackie



From:   Bruce McC
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior

>>
  Again, using the Hudson
  as an example, you can plan to cover x miles in a day but nature may
  conspire against you so that you won't reach the intended spot in time
  where you may have gotten permission or is a legal camp site >>

  Would this be an example of poor planning?
  Simple Rule Number 3
  Leave yourself an out, have a plan B.
>>
  
  Would this transfer to theft?  If you are really good at it and don't get
caught, is it still wrong?
  Emergency/survival situations are exceptions to most rules IMLTHO, but poor
planning on my part should not be reason to violate someone else's rights.  
It is the self determination aspect of Ralph's suggestion that concerns me.
  I determine whether or not to trespass.  I am sure that Ralph is/was a
conscientious Commando Camper, but I may not be and the next CC may be less
fastidious than I.
  Simple Rule Number 2
     If it isn't yours, don't touch it without asking permission first.
  Simple Rule Number 1 (for those of you that are counting)
     Consider the effect of your action on the surrounding community prior to
committing the action. (Ripple Effect)
  Bruce McC
  WEO



From: Joe Brzoza
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000

I myself have participated in "Commando Camping" while biking a rather long
rail-trail.  We were in what I'd describe as "the boonies", no one in sight,
hadn't seen an inhabited house for hours.  At the end of the day when we had
exhausted ourselves we pretty much pedaled until we found a suitable flat
spot and crashed.  The only impact was maybe a flat spot in the grass, no
scat holes or trash left behind.  We treated this camp spot better than if
it were our own property.

I certainly can't speak for all land owners, but I would like to think that
as long as property is treated with respect and care, most owners wouldn't
be upset by this occasional use.  Heck if you take such care that they never
become aware perhaps that's even better.

Joe



From: "O'Leary, Keith P"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000

>>
From:  Seng, Dave
you need to carefully choose the time and place if you're
going to attempt "commando camping".  Trying to do it in high use, high
profile areas (like the San Juan islands in Washington State) is probably
not wise -
>>

Dave drills it on this one.  I'm a "reformed" commando camper.  I learned
my lesson when I couldn't get into a campsite in Washington State peninsula.  
I began driving around and found an old road littered with appliances and
other forms of garbage.  Darkness was approaching fast, and I didn't have
time to be choosy, so I found a spot and crawled in the canopy of my pickup.  
Three hours later I awoke to the sounds of a megaphone and looked up to see
a double-barreled shotgun pointing at me.  The old road was being staked out
by local police who were trying to nab the culprit littering the road.  
Unfortunately I was the victim of mistaken identity, but it was an experience
I don't wish to repeat.



From: Kasia
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000

>>
About 20 Years ago I guerrilla camped while on a bicycle trip around Lake
Michigan and into Canada.  It was a lot of fun and a wonderful adventure,
but the greatest thing about it was the feeling of freedom.
>>

Yah, that's the thing! We all have so little freedom in our lives anymore,
ya know? And isn't that a lot of what we're seeking by exploring under our
own power in boats, on bikes, and on foot?

I generally guerrilla-camp as a rule and a plan, and only use campgrounds or
official campsites when necessary, convenient, or to protect the natural
environment. After all, showers are a good thing.... Of course, on
frequently-used hiking trails in the mountains, I wouldn't think of
squishing a garden of lovely wildflowers when there is a perfectly good
denuded patch of hard packed mud to sleep on! ;-)

I disagree that guerrilla camping is theft. Like Joe Brzoza, all I leave is
a little flat patch in the grass. And I also agree with the serious
backpacker who never even cooks at his guerrilla camping spots... I think
that's really in the true spirit of low-impact camping. Someone in a
previous message said they think few people really understand how low-impact
camping can really be. I think that's very true. Although I have to admit
that when camping with friends at our local Cascadia Marine Trail sites here
in Puget Sound, I do get a kick out of all the cool stuff my friends can
cram into their boats... BBQs, lounge chairs, cakes, pies, coolers filled
with steaks and beer.... When I pack for camping -- even at an
honest-to-God, paid-for campsite -- I would never even think to bring such
things! But don't get me wrong.... when they pull all those goodies out of
their boats, I think to myself, "Why didn't I think of bringing that?!" And
of course, I'm not opposed to steak handouts...... :-)

Bruce is right... not everyone is a conscientious guerrilla camper. I guess
that's why I don't talk a whole lot about guerrilla camping to folks who
don't already do it (besides, I wouldn't want them to find and take over my
own favorite spots.....!). I'm confident that my friends who engage in this
secret pasttime do take very good care of the 5x10 spaces they occupy for
six or eight hours. As for the yahoos who are actually engaging in "commando
partying" and leave their beer cans, cig butts and trash behind.... well, I
doubt any of those types are even in on this conversation!

Happy guerrilla camping!




Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior

Terms like guerrilla camping and stealth camping are better.  I hit on
commando camping for its alliterative aspect.

When the book first came out I ran into the editor of Messing About In
Boats, Bob Hicks, whom I know from symposia and other venues.  He said
when he saw it he told his wife "Gee, and Ralph Diaz seemed like such a
law-abiding individual."  :-)

As some one said here in such stealth camping you pick your time and
place.  I know of some not-so-stealthy examples.  Years ago when I
worked near the UN, my two mile walk to work each day took me through
Central Park past Sheep's Meadow in the southwestern part of the park.
One day I spotted a tent smack in the middle of Sheep's Meadow.  Two
park rangers were rapping on the aluminum frame to wake the guy up.  The
sun was bright that morning and I could see his silohuette clearly
inside the tent; he seemed startled to be discovered.  From his head
scratching he seemed to be thinking to himself "this sure seemed to be a
quiet meadow when I pitched my tent".  :-)

A similar thing happened to a friend when he paddled up the Hudson a
decade ago.  One night he found what seemed a quite spot where he pulled
up about midnight.  The next morning the local constable was rapping on
his tent.  Seems it was the town square!! (The constable was so
intrigued by his kayak and kayaking trip that he bought him coffee and
donuts.)

I suppose this type of camping might be termed clown camping :-)

ralph
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From: "Larry Bliven"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000

From: Seng, Dave
>>
If you come visit us in SE Alaska you'll find that you can camp almost
anywhere that you can find a flat enough (and dry enough!) spot for a
tent - but just be aware that the local residents will _always_ know
exactly where you're camped - and can exact a heavy toll for mistakes.
Sometimes though - as in the recent BC wolf attack - they end up paying
the price with _their_ lives.
>>

as winter set in a few years ago, i went for a paddle at one of my regular
sites... after awhile, i saw another guy.. wanting solitude, i tried to out
run him.. but he was in better shape than me. so we met and that was the
start of a friendship... he is from a Norwegian family. hats of hi to some
dark-side paddlers.

Today i discussed the BC wolf attack with an 80 yr young retired prof from
MIT who also has as Norwegian heritage... he told me that when attacked,
some hikers use their stick to club wolfs across the back (to break it) or
hit them in the jaw. hopefully i wil be able to show Eric MC some remote
locations this weekend.

so, i see some wisdom in paddling gently and sleeping with a sturdy paddle.

bye bye bliven



From: Mark Lane
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000

>>
BTW, on the question of asking permission, I made a distinction in the
book between asking permission to camp of a property owner in a remote
area (my suggestion is always ask in such a situation) and in a
populated area (my suggestion is not ask).  I was thinking of vacation
home people mainly in the latter.  A farmer in a remote place will
almost aways say yes.  A vacation home owner is more resentfully
guarding of his property and will likely say no and call the sheriff or
make a citizen's arrest.
>>

I think this statement is pretty far afield from reality.  In fact, I think
it's total nonsense.

I grew up in rural NC, lived for years on Martha's Vineyard in Mass (in a
very wealthy area along the coastd), and now live in NY, but have vacation
property in Maine.  My Maine property is right along the coast, in Rockport,
in an area where the MITA doesn't really have any good landings.  For
myself, I'm delighted to have kayakers land on my beach (which they do), and
eat, hang out, whatever.  I think most of the people along that coastline --
and this is a very wealthy coastline of "vacation homes" of great value --
would feel the same way.  My experiences kayaking up and down this coast
confirm this.  People are delighted to see us, wave and beckon, and are very
welcoming, even though they don't know I am really one of their neighbors.
All they see is kayaks and people and they are warm and welcoming.  In
short, the "vacation home" owners I know are wonderfully welcoming people,
and are receptive to kayakers (and other recreational users) along their
beaches.  I quite frankly think there is a prejudice against people who have
"vacation homes" based on resentment and class-based anger, and I think it
is totally unfounded and irrational.

OTOH, I do agree that rural people are also often very welcoming.  I've had
plenty of experiences that back this up, all over the US.  Here in Maine,
the rural people I have met have been wonderfully welcoming, genuine,
friendly and helpful.

As for "commando camping" -- bad news.  Bad news all around.  If you can
possibly find the owners, or residents, ask.  I can tell you, as I indicated
above, I am DELIGHTED to have paddlers come ashore on my property and camp,
etc.  But if I am around and available and they were to do so in a
"commando" mode, without asking, I'd resent it and be pissed.  All you have
to do is show a little civility.  All you have to do is show a little
respect for the property owner.  If you can't find it in you to do that, . .
. well, maybe you're not welcome after all.  And if enough jerks treat me
and my land that way, well. . . maybe eventually no one will be welcome.
So, my view: take a few minutes to scout around and find a way to politely
ask.  I really like the idea, mentioned earlier, that someone comes to the
house and asks to fill a water container.  Chances are anyone doing that at
my "vacation house" will be offered a hot meal, a warm bed, and hot shower,
a drive into town for any needed supplies, and general warmth and
hospitality.  Anyone sneaking around and thinking they are "commados" may be
tolerated but will be resented and will in the end harm the situation for
everyone.

So.  My two cents worth.  Back to lurk mode. . .

Mark Lane



From: "Merijn Wijnen"
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

The law is not always against the commando camper.

Once I and my girlfriend were cycling in brittain, and could not find any
legal campsite. We were about 40 miles north of Londen, in a fairly
populated area, so commando camping was out of the question. Meanwhile the
wether detoriated, and it was getting dark, so we decided to ask for a
(legal) campsite at a local police station.  The cops didn't know any legal
campsites nearby, and proposed to show us the local park to pitch up our
tent. But t was a not so smal city so my girlfriend was concerned about
gangs of the local youth, and also it was really pouring down, so I asked
for another solution. Then the cops offered us there interogation room for
the night. Only if they would pick up somebody we would have to move out.
The result: a good night of sleep, and dry wether next morning. And it is
quite interesting to watch their reaction when you tell people that you
once had to spend a night at a police station!

Greetings,

Merijn

******************************
Merijn Wijnen
Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl



Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

I had an analogous experience while commando camping on the Hudson.  We
pulled up at a spot that actually was suggested to us by a park official
who we know which was not legal but okay according to him.  Well, we
were set up when a parks enforcement cop came by saying we shouldn't be
there.  Using the name of the parks guy who said it was okay cut no ice
with this enforcement fellow.  He asked us to paddle on to another spot
about 3 miles downriver also not legal.  But the currents were against
us and we had already done about 35 miles that day.  He then looked us
over again, saw we were real low impact and then said it was okay but
was worried about all the kids who tended to hang out in the area
drinking and shooting up.  He said if they bothered us to go to the
enforcement office.  So in a sense we were now under the official
protection of the park police in an illegal spot!

This whole commando camping discussion has been quite a revelation.
People who I thought would find it okay seem strongly against.  And some
of those who I thought would be against seemed to be okay on it.  Also I
was quite surprised over how black and white some people saw it
particularly the vehemence of some of those advocating the sanctity of
private property.

I think a lot has to do with the area involved.  For example, those in
the Northwest seem most sensitive about it probably because of the flack
over overuse of the San Juans and such by kayakers.  There are very good
reasons not to commando camp in such sensitive areas.  Elsewhere,
though, I think it is a different matter.

I am also surprised to see that some people see little difference
between 20 paddlers pulling up on a person's front lawn to defecate,
pee, break tree branches for an open fire and a paddler or two pulling
in to a quiet corner at dusk, paddling off at dawn and leaving not a
mark on the place.  It's like the difference in basketball between an
intentional foul and a no harm no foul call.

Perhaps this is a discussion to have over a campfire at a legal kayak
campsite that permits open fires, a site blessed with woodchip padded
paths to clean latrines and wooden tent platforms, running water and
showers etc.  Unfortunately there are not many of these around.

ralph diaz
--
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Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."



From: Kasia
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
 
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kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."



From: Kasia
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000

>>
And what do you plan to do when whomever it is you are hiding from finds
you while you are out there all alone?<
>>

Are you suggesting that because I'm a woman, I shouldn't be out alone? I'm
not going to let worries about "what might happen" keep me from living my
life. But just like everyone else -- men included -- I need to be conscious
of safety. It's kind of like that discussion about not leaving food or
toothpaste in your tent to reduce the chance that a bear will identify you
as a tasty morsel. Of course, folks travelling in bear country have been
known to carry a gun for protection. Maybe I should think about getting a
gun permit! ;-)

Anyway, if a campground is busy and full, then sure, it's likely safe to
camp there as a woman alone. But if the only other occupants are a bunch of
guys with a cooler full of beer, I'll pass, thanks. Really, I can't remember
the last time I camped in a busy campground. That would sort of imply that I
was car-camping, and I'd still prefer a guerrilla camping spot where I can
sleep in the back of my station wagon, rather than a crowded, noisy
campground filled with blaring radios and screaming kids!

to catching a few z's in the woods, it appears some folks think that
guerrilla camping means setting up a tent on someone's lawn and hoping the
property owner won't notice. Believe me, it's not impossible to find a place
to sneak a sleep without folks knowing about it. As a transplanted East
Coaster (Chesapeake Bay region), I appreciate that out West here it's a
heckuva lot easier to find a secluded spot to snooze.

If one is truly practicing "low-impact guerrilla camping" -- no fires, no
noise, no brush-clearing or wood-chopping, etc. -- I don't know what the
difference is between sleeping for eight hours and stopping unseen on
someone's property to take a pee, to have lunch or to take a mid-day snooze
break.

While I have lots of friends with whom I enjoy getting outdoors, I find I'm
most connected with my environment and more open to my experience of life
when I'm alone.

Jackie suggested that even travelling with one other woman is safer than a
woman travelling alone, but I doubt that's true. And don't get me wrong...
having a man around can be handy -- they can lift heavy stuff, open tight
jars, and some can even cook! ;-) -- and there are definitely places where
it's safer to travel with a man in tow (I'm thinking particularly of some
international destinations). I have one particular male friend who is a
champion guerrilla camper. Together we'd found some really primo places to
nod off. In all our backcountry adventures, we have never once stayed in an
official camping spot.

I apologize to all of you out there who view me a rogue.

Any other hard-core guerrilla campers lurking? I know you're out there!!!!
Being your usual stealthy selves.......




Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000
From: Jackie Fenton
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

>>
Are you suggesting that because I'm a woman, I shouldn't be out alone? I'm
>>

Not only did I not suggest that, I stated I have traveled and camped as a
lone female myself on numerous occasions... in the US and overseas.

>>
not going to let worries about "what might happen" keep me from living my
life.   But just like everyone else -- men included -- I need to be
conscious of safety.
>>

Those that know me personally know that I live my life that way (not
allowing worries about what might happen preventing me from experiencing
life).  But I also think it is not wise to camp on private property
without asking permission or deliberately avoiding asking permission
because you fear the owner will say no.  If you do so, be prepared for
the consequences.  Unfortunately, it may have impact on the rest of us.

You continue to refer to your gender as an issue of safety and why you
won't tell the property owner you are camping on their property for your
own safety.  *Your* safety is not all that is at issue here.  These
days, there are many single female property owners that live out in
the "boonies" (I was one for many years).  A lone individual unannounced
and uninvited spending time on my property (I'm talking 20 acres in an
area with similar acreage and more for property owners... not a small
front lawn in a subdivision) was a cause of concern for me because past
experience meant 50% were there for the view... my place was elevated
with a spectacular view of the hill country...  and 50% were up
to no good.  Hard for me (and other property owners) to know who was
which until it was too late.  And it isn't only the single female
property owners that become concerned about their safety.  Several
hundred acres were burned near me along with a home and two outbuildings
when a camper decided to fire up a camp stove during high-risk fire season.
*We* don't know what *you* are up to.  We can't know unless you ask and
give us a chance to say "please be our guest, no camp stoves, ok? and
you'll find the water spicket by the back door, so help yourself."  

>>
Anyway, if a campground is busy and full, then sure, it's likely safe
to camp there as a woman alone. But if the only other occupants are
a bunch of guys with a cooler full of beer, I'll pass, thanks.
>>

What campgrounds are you referring to?  The national parks and state parks
that I'm familiar with have a no-alcohol policy with park rangers on
duty.   I repeat, I have never felt threatened when camped in public
campgrounds and I have found plenty of campgrounds, even in California
at the right time of year, that are virtually empty except for the
ranger on patrol.  

>>
If one is truly practicing "low-impact guerrilla camping" -- no fires, no
noise, no brush-clearing or wood-chopping, etc. -- I don't know what the
difference is between sleeping for eight hours and stopping unseen on
someone's property to take a pee, to have lunch or to take a mid-day snooze
break.
>>

You will get no argument from me about low-impact camping.  I'm a strong
proponent of low-impact camping.  The issue is tresspassing and respect
for property owners and the fall-out that disregarding that respect might
have on the paddling community at large.  To some property owners, 20
at one time or one-at-a-time over 20 visits still means the same thing...
you are there without permission and invading *their* privacy.  If you
show common courtesy and ask permission, then they are aware of your
intentions and most likely will be happy to allow you to camp (I agree
with Mark and I think most owners would be quite hospitable when shown
due respect and asked which leaves a much better impression about our
sport).

>>
Jackie suggested that even travelling with one other woman is safer than a
woman travelling alone, but I doubt that's true.
>>

No, I did not say that.  I said if I had concerns about being a lone
female traveler to primitive camping grounds, I would reserve those
trips to go with another paddler or paddlers.  It just happens that
they have been with males or a combination males and females.  

>>
And don't get me wrong...
having a man around can be handy -- they can lift heavy stuff, open tight
jars, and some can even cook! ;-) -- and there are definitely places where
it's safer to travel with a man in tow (I'm thinking particularly of some
international destinations).
>>

Which basically punctuates the point I made previously.... what do you plan
to do when whomever it is you are hiding from finds you as you are camped
out alone?  It has happened.  I'm afraid you are lulling yourself into a
sense of false security by thinking you are always stealth.  There have
been examples here where other paddlers were sure they were stealth camping
only to find out the next day they were not.  I will repeat what I said
earlier, many who think they are unobserved are mistaken.

Regards,

Jackie



From: Kasia
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000

>>
Ralph wrote:

I think a lot has to do with the area involved.  For example, those in
the Northwest seem most sensitive about it probably because of the flack
over overuse of the San Juans and such by kayakers.
>>

Ralph, you are so right! I can hardly picture a successful guerrilla camping
trip in the San Juans, except perhaps in winter. Most of Puget Sound is
crowded with waterfront homes, and certainly if I needed to bivouac beside
the dock on someone's front lawn, I'd be asking for permission.

>>
I am also surprised to see that some people see little difference
between 20 paddlers pulling up on a person's front lawn to defecate,
pee, break tree branches for an open fire and a paddler or two pulling
in to a quiet corner at dusk, paddling off at dawn and leaving not a
mark on the place.
>>

Yeah, big difference there. However, I do have a photo of myself and a
friend (another intrepid female paddler) posing in front of a particularly
rude "no tresspassing" sign on the shoreline somewhere here in south Puget
Sound. I hesitate to admit this to you folks lest you imagine I'm one of
those obnoxious kayakers of dubious fame, but in fact we went out of our way
to land on that beach to take a photo with that sign. What I thought was
amusing was that the property owner seemed to be trying to keep people off a
little strip of sticky mud, as it was sort of a cliff there and not even a
hint of a spot to sleep on at high tide! It's not as though they were trying
to keep us off their lovely lawn or even an enticing woodland. And there's
no way the spot could be used as a party spot or anything. Anyway, we really
only landed long enough to take the photo, but I confess we were just irked
by that sign.

>>
Perhaps this is a discussion to have over a campfire
>>

OK, who's plannin' the trip?! :-)




Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000
From: Jackie Fenton
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

>>
Yeah, big difference there. However, I do have a photo of myself and a
friend (another intrepid female paddler) posing in front of a particularly
rude "no tresspassing" sign on the shoreline somewhere here in south Puget
Sound. I hesitate to admit this to you folks lest you imagine I'm one of
those obnoxious kayakers of dubious fame, but in fact we went out of our way
to land on that beach to take a photo with that sign.
>>

I avoided no-tresspassing signs on my property for a long time but decided
I had no choice when I found a pile of beer bottles and cigarette butts
on my property during a particularly dry season.  I fought one fire out
there with neighbors and really didn't want to fight another.

In some places (don't know about your area) one measure a property
owner has for protecting themselves from losing their property to civil
lawsuit in case a tresspasser becomes injured on their property is to
post it with "No Tresspassing" signs.

Just an fyi.

Jackie



From: (Bob Myers)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

>>
Yeah, big difference there. However, I do have a photo of myself and a
friend (another intrepid female paddler) posing in front of a particularly
rude "no trespassing" sign on the shoreline somewhere here in south Puget
Sound. I hesitate to admit this to you folks lest you imagine I'm one of
those obnoxious kayakers of dubious fame,
>>

It does indeed come to mind.

>>
but in fact we went out of our way
to land on that beach to take a photo with that sign. What I thought was
amusing was that the property owner seemed to be trying to keep people off a
little strip of sticky mud, as it was sort of a cliff there and not even a
hint of a spot to sleep on at high tide! It's not as though they were trying
to keep us off their lovely lawn or even an enticing woodland. And there's
no way the spot could be used as a party spot or anything. Anyway, we really
only landed long enough to take the photo, but I confess we were just irked
by that sign.
>>

So let me get this straight.

You not only don't ask people's permission to camp on their land, you
specifically go out of your way to trespass when they specifically ask
you not to?

You definitely sound pretty obnoxious to me.

Oh, I forgot, you're "intrepid".

--
Bob Myers
  


From: Mark Lane
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000


[Chuckle]  Right on, Bob.  I had the same reaction.  Kasia, you're coming
off as rather rude yourself, in my not-so-humble opinion.  I hope you don't
resort to having your photo taken in front of no trespassing signs in my
area -- my neighbors will find that fairly offensive, and it's just the kind
of thing that will inspire them (and perhaps me) to take greater measures to
prohibit trespassing.  In other words, your conduct is injurious to us all.
Grow up a little, will ya.
Mark



From: "Philip Torrens"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commando" Camping
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000

An interesting (to me) perspective to the discussion on "commando camping".
I keep my single sea kayak and my whitewater boat in a community boathouse
which local paddlers rent from the city. When I go to access my boats I
often find "street people" sleeping in the recessed boathouse doorway,
taking shelter against the heavy Vancouver rains. These people are not
"commando camping" for fun or sport - they have no homes, and I am generally
very sympathic to their situation. However, just as the private property
owner's attitude towards kayak campers varies with the conduct of the
"guests", so my attitude varies with the way these visitors deport
themselves. Most are very polite and civil, but a few leave behind
newspapers (their "bedding"wink, empty bottles and cans, and a strong smell of
urine, necessitating a clean-up and hose-down of the area. These thoughtless
ones may eventually ruin an otherwise congenial "dual-use" of the doorway,
if the abuse results in the installation of a folding gate which would block
access for the "innocent" sleepers.

Philip Torrens
N49°16' W123°06'



From: "Seng, Dave"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Fri, 7 Jul

>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Myers
>>

OK - here's a virtual bucket of cold salt water from Alaska on the subject.
(that oughta cool off those keyboards!(grin))  It's clear that there are
widely divergent views held by different parties and there are probably more
variables involved than any of us would want to try to think about.  I vote
to drop this line of discussion and move on to more productive avenues....

Dave Seng
Juneau, Alaska



Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:59:53
From: Wes Boyd
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

Fine with me. Which would you prefer?

- -- rudder vs. no rudder?
- -- feathered vs. nonfeathered vs. Inuit?
- -- plastic vs. fiberglass?
- -- or even, roll/paddle float vs. sponsons?
;-)

- -- Wes



Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000
From: ralph diaz
Subject: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping

Since I am responsible for starting this general thread I would like to
make clearer my position, which was both stated and implied in my book.
Here is what I practice based on my own experience and which are the
tenets of the conscientious commando camper:

Here is a pecking order of property I would camp on if I could not find
anything legal to stop at:

First, Railroad right of way property or utilities property.  Abandoned
factory land, wide expanses of undeveloped land, etc. are also a first
choice.  Your are traspassing but if your actions don't interfere with
the workings of the place, then what is the harm?  I would most
definitely stay away from range towers and on-land bouys where your
camping might interfere with its operation or be construed that way by
the Coast Guard (Think I am kidding.  Two guys got hit with some heavy
fines when they camped on Mill Rock, a stopover spot for round-Manhattan
paddlers.  There is an aid to navigation there steering ships through
the tricky Hell Gate area.  The Coast Guard nabbed them probably for
hanging their wash on the aid.)

Next or on the same order as the first above, would be parkland, off in
a corner somewhere or a bit of an island or isolated peninsula away from
paths and roads.  An amazing amount of such exists along the shores of
most bodies of water.  Again this is a violation but if you do no harm.
If you are being sensible in your camping practices and you do get found
by a ranger, your luck will likely be like mine.  They will say okay.

Next, if it had to be really private property, I would opt for one that
seemed owned by a local AND I would most definitely ask permission
regardless of what I expected they might say.  Locals tend to be aware
when you are around and so it is safest to ask them.  I stated all of
this in my book, i.e. locals being aware of you and going to ask them
permission.  They are also the most likely to say yes.  But if they say
no, then paddle on.  You should not defy them.

Lastly, I would opt for private property owned as vacation homes here in
the East.  This type of person is never going to give you permission,
believe me.  If that was all that was available, then I would do so
without asking.  This is a biased opinion of mine based on what I have
seen of such landowners, Mark Lane excepted who seems most generous with
his stretch of land on the Maine coast.    

BUT surely one of the other categories presented above would lend itself
to camping and you could almost always find such before resorting to the
last type.

I apologize for the discussion focusing so much on the individual
private owner and the question of asking permission.  It is a rare
occasion that I and any sensible commando camper would choose such a
site.  We are not out there to defy authority and property rights.  We
are out there to get along with our surroundings and to be as
unobtrusive as we can.  You would have to be pretty desperate and
dog-tired or fleeing some nasty weather before being forced into the
position of camping on the land owned by an individual.

The real issue is that there is so little legal camping spots along some
of the best paddling waters.  So support water trail organizations to
see to it that more spots open up.

ralph diaz

--
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Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: Mark "Sailboat Restorations, Inc.
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000

>>
Jackie wrote:
In some places (don't know about your area) one measure a property
owner has for protecting themselves from losing their property to civil
lawsuit in case a tresspasser becomes injured on their property is to
post it with "No Tresspassing" signs.
>>

This is exactly right.  I know plenty of people who put up no trespassing
signs solely because the absence of them can be relevant in any liability
determination.  It's unfortunate.  I have resisted putting up the signs
myself, and most of my neighbors along the coast have, as well (obnoxious
vacation home owners that they are (g)).  The signs themselves deface the
nature beauty of the place, but some people do feel the need to have them.

There is an old trail that runs along the coast from Rockland to Rockport --
or at least it used to run that distance -- which crosses my property and
that of lots of other people.  For the fairly nice stretch from Rockport out
a couple of miles, I know of only two people who have put up no trespassing
signs.  In one case, I believe it was for liability reasons, and folks do
walk the trail across that piece.  In other case, it is my understanding
that the owner really does not want people to walk the property.  It's sad,
because the trail is very beautiful.  There is also a Nature Conservancy
piece nearby where the trail can be accessed (legally -- there is even a
trailhead marker with maps) from the road.  I have found it pleasing to see
that so many of the "vacation home owners" along the stretch have no
objection to keeping the trail open to those who wish to walk along the
shore.  If you land your kayak here, it can be a nice stroll.

Mark



From: Mark "Sailboat Restorations, Inc."
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000

ralph wrote about his views of commando camping, providing some very
thoughtful ideas.  Among them, he wrote:

>>
Next or on the same order as the first above, would be parkland, off in
a corner somewhere or a bit of an island or isolated peninsula away from
paths and roads.  An amazing amount of such exists along the shores of
most bodies of water.  Again this is a violation but if you do no harm.
If you are being sensible in your camping practices and you do get found
by a ranger, your luck will likely be like mine.  They will say okay.
>>

The only thing I would add to this -- and I don't mean to come off as
sanctimonious here -- is that if a parkland (or even private land) *is*
designated as a no-camping area (which you may not know just by wandering
onto it) it *could* be because it is a nesting ground or breeding area for
some animal (or plant) that might be seriously harmed by your presence.
Example: I recently landed on a tiny (uninhabited) island in an inland
lake -- for no particular reason other than it seemed like a fun thing to do
(and to take a pee).  Once I was out of the boat, I saw two loon eggs
carefully tucked up next to a tree at the edge of the shore.  Looking
around, I saw the loons out in the water.  I felt sick inside.  As quickly
and quietly as I could, I launched and moved on, praying that my landing
would not have any impact on the nest.  I did see the loons a couple of days
later still guarding the spot, so I think it is OK.  But it would be very
easy, I believe, for a landing to result in the loss of the two eggs -- a
great loss -- they are such amazingly beautiful birds.

Just a thought. . . not meant to make any kind of point, really. . .

Mark



From: "Matt Broze"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commando" Camping
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000

A true guerrilla camper would not be advertising the technique (or their
favorite camping spots). I couldn't believe that Ralph wrote about it in his
book. This is roughly equivalent of writing an article in the newspaper
describing your secret (but illegal) fishing hole. Not only will hundreds of
fishermen descend on it and ruin the fishing but the game warden will be
there waiting to arrest them to teach them a lesson. Best sometimes to just
keep your mouth shut and your pen holstered. A kayaker in real need will
figure out what they need to do. We don't need to encourage new paddlers to
break the law by describing how it is done and romanticizing it.

The major problem that has made kayakers unwelcome in the San Juans was not
guerrilla camping. Campsites were relatively plentiful (at least until the
Water Trails organization sold them down the river). The problem is the fact
that most of the beaches in the San Juans are really the public's property
(usually to the high tide line). The owners of the uplands have always
treated the beaches as though they owned them. They could keep terrestrial
tourists off them by limiting access and by putting pressure on their
neighbors to do the same. So to prevent an invasion from the sea (and more
kayakers taking a stroll down that public beach in front of their house when
they can't legally just go get the shotgun and fire a few warning shots over
their "No trespassing" signs and the kayakers beyond them) they must devise
more sinister methods. They have sought to put their "property" out of reach
of most kayakers, just like they did with earthbound tourists, by organizing
to limit a kayaker's access to the water anywhere on "their" islands. They
have been quite successful at this and now every access point I used to use
from the ferry has been closed. This is too bad because kayakers mostly need
to now take their cars on the ferry to get access to the water.

Matt Broze (who tries very hard not to be a guerrilla kayak camper but
realizes that on occasion there is not really any other sane choice)
http://www.marinerkayaks.com



Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000
From: Jackie Fenton
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

>>
From: "Seng, Dave"
OK - here's a virtual bucket of cold salt water from Alaska on the subject.
that oughta cool off those keyboards!(grin))  It's clear that there are
widely divergent views held by different parties and there are probably more
variables involved than any of us would want to try to think about.  I vote
to drop this line of discussion and move on to more productive avenues....
>>

Some may be uncomfortable with the direction of this discussion but the issue
is an important one and may determine what areas will be open (or not) to
paddlers for kayak camping.  The issue of kayakers rudely thumbing their
noses at property rights of owners is where this discussion began (the
article by Tamia Nelson).  I think Bob is perfectly within line to express
concern, even distate, at the rude behavior of a kayaker who brags about
that behavior here on PaddleWise.  The rude actions of kayakers towards
private property owners is an issue we should *all* be concerned with
because, as Ralph pointed out, camping locations are getting more and
more sparse in many areas.  Property owners are getting fed up as Dave
Kruger noted by banding together to buy up kayak launch points and
convince officials to restrict access to launch points.  I hope the
kayaker and her friend were not seen but probably were.

Irresponsible and rude jet skiiers have gotten *all* jet skiiers banned
from numerous areas as the responsible jet skiiers waited until it was too
late to speak up.  Shocked and surprised to discover that it is possible
to lose access to favorite jetski spots, they are now attempting to put
pressure on their peers to change the bad behavior but in many cases,
it's too little too late.  We need to do something now or we will find
that we kayakers will be welcomed less and less and, in some places,
outright banned.

Regards,

Jackie



From: Mark "Sailboat Restorations, Inc."
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000

>>
Rich (responding about a shoreside trail that crosses my land) wrote:
I'm not a lawyer but I do understand that many states recognized
established rights of way.  If people have been using the trail regularly
for 15(?) years, it becomes a right of way.  The land owner has his
restricted rights in such cases.
>>

Of course, many states recognize some form of adverse possession or other
principle that can result in a public right of way due to usage over time.
In the case of my land, that has not happened.  It's an issue I'm very
familiar with (unlike Rich, I am a lawyer, BTW -- although I suspect Rich
chose the wiser professional course ).  Without getting into the legal
doctrine, there are a number of issues that are generally relevant,
including the concept of the usage being "adverse."  Permitted use does not
result in adverse possession.  There are many other issues.  I respond here
mainly because this is a subject that could be relevant to paddlers. . . .
But I won't get into in detail at this time. . .

BTW, I have been thinking for years of working on a compendium of laws
relating to public access to waterways.  It would be written for for the
non-lawyer (ie, the paddler, rower, sailor, swimmer, etc).  I'd welcome any
thoughts you guys might have about the usefulness of such a book. . .

Mark Lane



From: "Donald R. Reid"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000

I've been following this train of thought for the last
several days .... Mark Lane and Rich Beatty have brought up
the subject of some form of adverse possession or other
principle that can result in a public right of way due to
usage over time.

I have lived in Brazil off and on for over 20 years ... and
it is very interesting there in the fact that all marine
land is considered public domain from 15 - 25 meters from
the high water line.  There all no private beaches .... they
belong to the people of Brazil ... called 'marine land'.
There are no fences allowed on 'marine land'.

There are some cases where I wouldn't want to argue that
point with some indian tribes, or ranchers that have been
'invaded' by the MST (Sem Terra movement), or in areas along
the borders with Columbia, Venezuela, or Bolivia frequented
by 'drug smugglers' .... (the biggest problem that I see
from them is the wakes from their high speed boats ... they
slow down for no one).

Brazilians are actually very ecology minded .... and the
novelty of kayakers or canoers arriving somewhere ... leads
to a hospitality unequaled anywhere in the world.

We are in the process of launching a kayak tour operation in
Brazil this winter (target date December 15), and all of the
guides that we have selected to work with us are avid
ecologists, some actually work for the government (their
normal 'day job'wink in that field.

My 'gut feeling' that anyone that travels that far to
explore new waters is probably like minded.

(http://www.andetur.com/Brazil/Projects/sea_kayak.htm)

Capt. Donald R. Reid - Director International
Professional Member -
Association for International Business
Brazil Destination Specialist
Escorted Tour Specialist



From: "Phares Heindl"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Adverse Posession- Wekiva River
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000

I think it takes at least 7 years of use here in Florida. It would be hard
to commando camp that long. Along the Wekiva the doctrine did not work.
There were squatter cabins along the river. The state successfully evicted
despite claims of adverse possession. I do not know the details. My website
has a nice photo of the Wekiva, a spring fed river in Central Florida if you
wish to take a look. Great place to visit in the middle of winter. Water 72
degrees all year.

Phares Heindl
Phares M. Heindl P. A.
Board Certified Civil Trial Lawyer
Altamonte Springs, Florida
Web:   www.heindllaw.com



Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 10:15:45 -0700
From: "Robert C. Cline"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Adverse Posession- Wekiva River

In Texas, one cannot claim adversely against the state.  

Robert



From: Mark "Sailboat Restorations, Inc."
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Adverse Posession- Wekiva River
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000

Adverse possession does not work on government land.  The old phrase (which
shows how old the doctrine is) is: "Time does not run against the King."
You can squat on govt land forever and you will never have rights in the
land.  As for the time, it varies from state to state.  Seven years is
pretty short.  Most states have more like 10 to 20.  The use must be open
and notorious, adverse to the owner, and continuous.  If an owners suffers
that for the legally required time, the "squatter" can become the owner.  It
applies to entire spreads of property just as much as it does to that 2 foot
strip next to your driveway (put up a fence and in 20 years you'll own that
strip (g)).  Those are the basics.
Mark



Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000
From: Ira  Adams

It used to be that way in Australia as well. Don't know how it is these
days, but from my last trip to Queensland I seem to recall Japanese
resort developments that had closed off public access to sections of
beach, so perhaps the laws have changed. Or my recollection may be
faulty. Maybe someone in Oz could bring us up to date.

Ira

>>
I have lived in Brazil off and on for over 20 years ... and
it is very interesting there in the fact that all marine
land is considered public domain from 15 - 25 meters from
the high water line.  There all no private beaches .... they
belong to the people of Brazil ... called 'marine land'.
There are no fences allowed on 'marine land'.
>>



Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

>>
Donald R. Reid wrote:
I've been following this train of thought for the last
several days .... Mark Lane and Rich Beatty have brought up
the subject of some form of adverse possession or other
principle that can result in a public right of way due to
usage over time.

I have lived in Brazil off and on for over 20 years ... and
it is very interesting there in the fact that all marine
land is considered public domain from 15 - 25 meters from
the high water line.  There all no private beaches .... they
belong to the people of Brazil ... called 'marine land'.
There are no fences allowed on 'marine land'.
>>

Most countries have similar rules, i.e. a fairly wide-band of shoreline
ABOVE the mean high tide line is public.  Depending on your outlook, the
US is either foreward looking or backward looking regarding this.

BTW, I was impressed in my visits to Puerto Rico to find that something
similar applies there, i.e. a wide band of the beaches belongs to the
public.  The hotels, no matter how much they would like the situation to
be different, cannot ban innocent passage along the beaches in front of
their property.  Also, and this is critical, there must be access to
those beachs from the land at decent intervals.

Just a word about my "romanticizing" commando camping.  I don't think I
have.  Getting in after dark, stumbling around without lights, not
talking loudly, getting your tent down in very early morning light and
on your way before the sun comes up is hardly my idea of "romantic."  I
see it as a necessary evil at times when you can't find anywhere else to
camp.  Many people are new to camping and kayak camping and don't have
the wisdom and savvy of many of the old hands who populate this
listserve.  I set down guidelines in order to help the unaware ones make
as little impact as possible on the privacy of land.

ralph diaz

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000
From: Dirk Barends
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping

>>
OK - here's a virtual bucket of cold salt water from Alaska
>on the subject. (that oughta cool off those keyboards!(grin)
>>

So far I really did not see much that was not interesting to read about
this subject. Especially the views of the (problems of) landowners at
PaddleWise have given me more and better ideas about how to handle
situations when I have to camp illegally. And camping, and the possibility
to do it, is a very important aspect of the paddlesport, I think.
So concerns about how to deal with situations that force(!) you to camp
illegally are really valid: when you cannot camp (anymore) in a certain
area, it could mean that you will have to give up paddling there?
And it is an aspect that could be spoiled for you due to the behavior of
others! I know a lot of people (some even good friends...) that have
a very 'romantic' approach to camping illegaly, and do not (want to?)
realize what harm they could do with this behaviour.
For those people this kind of discussion could make them realize
that their behaviour is problematic?

BTW. When camping illegally in the Netherlands,
if a policeman would wake you with a gun in his hand,
it sure will be him that would be fired!

Dirk Barends

the Netherlands



Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000
From: Melissa
Subject: [Paddlewise] Public Beaches (was: "Commado" Camping)

I live in an oceanfront house in WA state (USA), and I have mixed
feelings about the public policy on beaches.  On the one hand, I'm very
glad that the beaches are public land.  For me, a coastline - the edge
of a continent - is a sacred place, and personal ownership just doesn't
seem right to me (personal ownership of bits of earth is already a
somewhat absurd concept to me - although I can understand the utility
in some of it).  

However, there is one thing that really really REALLY bothers me about
my state's policy... Driving is allowed on the beach (ack!!!).  What's
that all about?  I've been told that it's because the beach is
designated a *state highway* (I've never seen anyone using the beach
for point to point travel - especially at the beach in front of my
house, as I live on a little spit of sand sticking out into the ocean -
effectively a dead end).  That (state highway designation) may be why
it's allowed, but why is it designated as such in the first place??!!
This is something I've never understood.  There is no real need to
drive on the beach (except for surf rescues and other possible
emergencies).  

I've written to the Governor a few times regarding this disgusting
practice, but haven't heard back from him.  I've written to the DOT,
and haven't heard from them.  It's a sad situation.

Melissa  



Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Public Beaches (was: "Commado" Camping)

It's all a tough call no matter how you look at it.  Unlike in
Washington where you report the beach is public, other states have had
to really fight for this.

I am a member of a NY area group called the Shorewalkers.  I always like
to walk as much as possible along the shoreline that I paddle.  The
group is dedicated to the right of innocent passage by people along the
entire shore perimeter of the tri-state area.

Last year, I walked with the group on the New Jersey side from Hoboken
(Frank Sinatra's old haunting ground; a riverside park is now named
after him and has an official kayak launch site).  As we walking about
half way up to our destination at the George Washington Bridge (about a
12 mile walk), we came upon a residential development.  There were light
obstacles in our way.  As we started going through them we were stopped
not by a security guard but rather one of the apartment dwellers and his
wife.  Here was the conflict: a middle to advanced age couple
confronting a group of walkers who mirrored them in looks and age.  We
had no boomboxes, we were totally non-threatening (if any one saw a foto
of me you would know that) but the husband stood his ground...we could
not walk through.  Well it so happens that that the state authorities
were fighting that development's encroachment on the legislated free
access walk along the entire stretch of the river.  The state won in the
courts.

The state officials at a harbor wide meeting held later gathering
together government, private, commercial and environmental groups made
an interesting point.  Certain land such as shoreline and waters are
held in trust by the state; these belong to NO ONE and EVERYONE.

ralph
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."



Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000
From: "Fred T, CA Kayaker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Public Beaches (was: "Commado" Camping)

In S. Florida the Condo Commando's try to restrict THEIR beach.  The
taxpayer spends big bucks pumping sand back on the things to keep the
condo's from falling in the Atlantic.  I say let them go.  Have you every
driven A1A from Miami north and enjoyed the unrestricted view of the
ocean.   I have been harassed by some of these irate Condo Commando's who
believed they owned the beach from their property to the water.  If I am
not mistaken when adjoining a "navigable waterway" the access extends to
the Mean High Water Level or 100 year flood level.  That is public right of
way.

The fourth of July weekend found us visiting my sister in the N. LA area
off of Old Topanga Canyon Road.  I decided to paddle South of Leo Carillo
at the north end of Malibu you will find a small access area to the beach
between nice beach homes.  When you get to the beach you find a sign that
says:  "This beach was surveyed:  6/1/00.  From this sign 20 feet towards
the ocean is private property."  Sorry Ms. Nelson this is paraphrased, but
I am sure it is accurate!  The sign was getting wet prior to high tide.

On page 15 of "California Coastal Access Guide" it states that:
Article 10, Section 4 of the California constitution guarantees the
public's right to access to the state's navigable waters.
The State of California owns the tide and submerged lands seaward of what
is called the "mean high tide line"
Mean High Tide Line is calculated by using the mean of normal tides over
approximately 19 years.
"visitors have the right to walk on a wet beach"

I may not be able to afford their homes, but I can and will use "OUR"
beaches!  Quote that Ms. Nelson!  And I would like to be able to camp on
them as well!

Fred Thomas
California Kayaker



From: "Matt Broze"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000

Actually I agree with most of what Ralph says (below). I was still surprised
he put it into print in his book. I can imagine how a landowner, upset with
some kayakers, could use it in a hearing about controlling access to
kayakers in his area. "Look its not just a few bad apples doing this here it
is described in a well respected book on the subject.".

I disagree with Ralph about supporting paddle trails organizations though.
They sell the pipe dream of more camping areas but from what I have seen
locally that's not what actually happens. More likely they will find all the
existing camping areas and post them and charge a fee and advertise them
nationally to attract paddlers from all around to their new trail. They
justify these new fees by saying they need it so that new areas can be
purchased or developed but I've not seen much progress here either.

>>
From: ralph diaz
Subject: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping

Since I am responsible for starting this general thread I would like to
make clearer my position, which was both stated and implied in my book.
Here is what I practice based on my own experience and which are the
tenets of the conscientious commando camper:

Here is a pecking order of property I would camp on if I could not find
anything legal to stop at:

First, Railroad right of way property or utilities property.  Abandoned
factory land, wide expanses of undeveloped land, etc. are also a first
choice.  Your are traspassing but if your actions don't interfere with
the workings of the place, then what is the harm?  I would most
definitely stay away from range towers and on-land bouys where your
camping might interfere with its operation or be construed that way by
the Coast Guard (Think I am kidding.  Two guys got hit with some heavy
fines when they camped on Mill Rock, a stopover spot for round-Manhattan
paddlers.  There is an aid to navigation there steering ships through
the tricky Hell Gate area.  The Coast Guard nabbed them probably for
hanging their wash on the aid.)

Next or on the same order as the first above, would be parkland, off in
a corner somewhere or a bit of an island or isolated peninsula away from
paths and roads.  An amazing amount of such exists along the shores of
most bodies of water.  Again this is a violation but if you do no harm.
If you are being sensible in your camping practices and you do get found
by a ranger, your luck will likely be like mine.  They will say okay.

Next, if it had to be really private property, I would opt for one that
seemed owned by a local AND I would most definitely ask permission
regardless of what I expected they might say.  Locals tend to be aware
when you are around and so it is safest to ask them.  I stated all of
this in my book, i.e. locals being aware of you and going to ask them
permission.  They are also the most likely to say yes.  But if they say
no, then paddle on.  You should not defy them.

Lastly, I would opt for private property owned as vacation homes here in
the East.  This type of person is never going to give you permission,
believe me.  If that was all that was available, then I would do so
without asking.  This is a biased opinion of mine based on what I have
seen of such landowners, Mark Lane excepted who seems most generous with
his stretch of land on the Maine coast.

BUT surely one of the other categories presented above would lend itself
to camping and you could almost always find such before resorting to the
last type.

I apologize for the discussion focusing so much on the individual
private owner and the question of asking permission.  It is a rare
occasion that I and any sensible commando camper would choose such a
site.  We are not out there to defy authority and property rights.  We
are out there to get along with our surroundings and to be as
unobtrusive as we can.  You would have to be pretty desperate and
dog-tired or fleeing some nasty weather before being forced into the
position of camping on the land owned by an individual.

The real issue is that there is so little legal camping spots along some
of the best paddling waters.  So support water trail organizations to
see to it that more spots open up.

ralph diaz
>>

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com



Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000
From: Nick Schade
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping

I have mixed feelings about the watertrails concept. I am a member of the
Maine Island Trail Association, the originator of the idea. I see the
service they provide as getting permission to use private islands. These
islands were probably being camped on before MITA came along, so in a sense
they are just charging a fee for what people had been doing for a long
time. But the ethics of commando camping at these spots was questionable.
There is no ethical question about camping on a "MITA island" once MITA has
negotiated the permission.

The MITA guide includes public lands in its directory, but you don't need
to be a MITA member to use these islands.

The traffic on private and public islands has increased, but is this a
result of MITA advertising or is it due to the increased popluarity of sea
kayaking. If people are out kayaking anyway, isn't it better that they camp
where they have permission, in a somewhat controlled manner, than sneaking
in somewhere. The trail movement has concentrated the camping, and in a
sense "ruined" many good campsites. But people randomly creating campsites
would be damaging as well.

I've paddled alot in the Stonington, Maine area, which is the nicest, best
kayaking, section of the Maine Island Trail. The many islands are close
together and there are several nice camping islands. I have yet to see a
real crowding problem. Maybe a couple days a year there is a problem.

The most powerful protection for the islands is the ocean and the skills
required to paddle on it. More people get the MITA guide, read it and
dream, than actually get out on the islands. The people that do get out
there would probably do so anyway. MITA just lets them do it without facing
the ethical problem of trespassing.

Where I have problems with the Trails concept is where it gets in the way
of the local's use of traditional camp sites. Now they have to deal with
people from "away" telling them they can't use an island they've used for
generations, just because they aren't carrying the right card. The locals
often have at least implicit permission to use the island and should not be
bothered by high minded outsiders. If the guide says that only
card-carrying members should use the island... well let the owner enforce
it.

Nick Schade
Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St, Suite I
Glastonbury, CT 06033
(860) 659-8847

http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/

>>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<<



Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000
From: Tina
Subject: [Paddlewise] Public Beaches (was: "Commado" Camping)

I'm so glad to hear that others feel the same way about driving on beaches.
Beach walks on the Long Beach peninsula are so disturbing, with cars
whizzing by every which way, that I don't even go there anymore.

One of my former favorite places to kayak camp on the Oregon coast has been
ruined by beach driving.  I used to love going to the spit at the mouth of
Nestucca Bay, and camping in the dunes.  Even in the summer, one could feel
like they had the bay to themselves.  Unfortunately, a visit three years
ago was ruined by the beach drivers.  There were tracks over every spot on
the spit, every little hill had tire tracks on it and toilet paper
"flowers" were scattered everywhere in the sand.  It took a long time to
gather and burn enough trash to clear a place to camp, and there was a
nagging feeling the entire time that some crazy 4 wheeler would come
crashing over the dune we were next to, and land on our tent.

The most disturbing thing about all this is that there is a movement in
Oregon to ban camping on the public beaches, due to the trash left by
campers. Unfortunately, this would affect conscientious campers also, and
wouldn't eliminate those that do the most serious damage to the beaches.
In Oregon, there are places where ATV and dune buggies can go play in their
own designated beach parks, and nobody would consider strolling or camping
in these places. It's a shame that legislators don't get out beach walking
and kayak camping and see these things for themselves.

Tina

-------------------------------------------------------------
Healthy meals on wheels;
The BENTO BUGGY website
http://www.pcez.com/BentoBuggy
Check out The Panama Pages trip at:
http://www.pcez.com/panama
-------------------------------------------------------------



From: Mark
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:17:32 -0000

>>
Nick Schade wrote:
I have mixed feelings about the watertrails concept. I am a member of the
Maine Island Trail Association, the originator of the idea. I see the
service they provide as getting permission to use private islands.
>>

I agree completely with all that Nick said.  I too am a supporting member of
MITA, and I think they are doing good work.  They aren't really "selling"
anything -- the membership fee is a mere $15 or so.  (They depend primarily
on voluntary contributions of much larger amounts.)  One of the most
important things they are doing, IMO, is to promote the idea of voluntary
member self-management.  I suspect there has been some . . . discussion
within MITA about more closely regulating island use, or requiring advance
reservations, permitting, things like that. . . but these ideas have
apparently been rejected in favor of voluntary self-management.  I like
that.  People should feel more "connected" to the islands if they feel some
responsibility for them.  Instead of creating an "other" in the form of a
regulatory or management body, to which one must "apply" for "permission" or
something like that, MITA is promoting a notion that integrates its
membership into the process.

I think this parallels a trend within the environmental movement (or some
sections of it) that would remove the conceptual "barriers" between us and
our planet that have, in a sense, been created by the movement itself (for
example, challenging the concept of "wilderness" as distinct from the rest
of the planet, which distinction in itself may more readily allow
degradation of the rest of the planet, and thus may be a harmful way of
thinking. . . ).  (The fascinating magazine Orion seems to be on the cutting
edge of this.)  I don't know that much about it at this point, but I do find
it interesting, and at any rate I am pleased with MITA's philosophical
stance and will continue to support the organization.

I don't know anything about any other "water trail" organizations, and so
can't comment on them.  I did read an interesting article in a recent ACK
about a water trail project through Maine lakes to New York.  My biggest
concern about these things is that they will result in heavier usage, and
naturally I want it all to myself (g).  . .  .  Of course, heavier usage
*can* be good, if properly done, as it brings more people closer to the
earth they live on and thereby *may* help save the place. . . .

Mark



Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping

Sounds like MITA may have hit on a reasonable balance in its approach to trail
management:  "... the idea of voluntary member self management ..."  As Nick
mentioned [I snipped that part], when a MITA-type system begins to restrict the
"locals" from their traditional haunts, resentment is inevitable.

Where I live, a couple of water trails have been proposed, and a couple of
sites for camping have been set up, albeit not in my county.  I am frankly
opposed to extending them into my neck of the woods, a little for the notoriety
they bring, but mainly because most of the area paddlers would traverse **is a
wildlife refuge.**  Our presence on the water in large numbers is counter to
accepted principles of wildlife management.

Yah, sure, there are compromises inherent in water trails, but I think
curmudgeon Broze (he is a 10 on the curmudgeon scale -- I'm only a 7) may be
watching an example of a misdirected water trail up in Puget Sound.  Or, could
be that population pressures would have brought things to where they are,
currently, independent of the existence of any formal water trail.

For a wonderful look at their water trail, check out Joel Rogers' picture book,
"Water Trail," Sasquatch Books, US$22, ISBN 1-57061-095-9

I equivocate about these things, because I can see their benefit in the face of
desperate land-use conflicts and an ever-booming population of paddlers (they
are the best of a compromised situation), **and** I have the "memory" of things
the way they used to be ... which, of course, I can't have any more.  Times
change.  Like Mark, "... naturally I want it all to myself. (g)"  At the root,
don't we all have a piece of that in our psyche?

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR



Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000
From: Nick Schade
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Water Trails

"Equivocate" is a good word for my opinion on water trails. One thought
that has made them look better in my eyes is that 50, 100, 200 years from
now people will still be going out on the water. The population pressure
will likely get worse with a resultant increase in recreational pressures.
While the immediate impact may be an increase in traffic, the groundworks
for long term protection of the resources are being laid by the watertrails
movement.

I hope the increased traffic for us today will payoff with a better
experience for everyone in the long run. Let us hope that the organizers
manage their responsibility well.

Nick Schade
Guillemot Kayaks
824 Thompson St, Suite I
Glastonbury, CT 06033
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 00:14:34
Post #37
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 big thanks to Reinhold Weber for organizing this PaddleWise discussion on tents for this website.


From: "Peter Osman"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:35:55 GMT

G'Day

Two years ago I started kayaking but was able to draw on the childhood
experience of 42 years past when I propelled two planks of wood using an
iron pole as a paddle.

Now I am about to embark on an equally hazardous initiation - but with no
prior expewrience of any kind. IE the first time in my life to go camping -
Could anyone volunteer the three worst mistakes I could make? Its part of a
sea kayak trip from Sydney (Australia) to Newcastle (Australia).

All the best, PeterO




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 01:51:38 -0700
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes


Oh, boy, is my hopper full of recent experience on this one!  Peter, I can't
stop at just three.  Please do not ask why I am so acutely tuned to these
errors (especially the last one -- arrrgh!).

0. Failing to pitch your tent above the midnight high tide mark.

1. Failing to have enough dry bags to keep your gear dry.

2. Failing to run your food up high enough (and far enough from the tree trunk)
that the critters (rats, raccoons, bears, etc.) won't get into it.

3. Failing to bring enough fuel for cooking.

4. Failing to bring enough drinking water (or, forgetting the filter needed to
produce safe water from surface sources).

5. Forgetting the TP.

6. Leaving the tent (sleeping bag, tarp, stove, food, paddling partner, etc.)
home.

7. And the worst:  leaving your sense of humor at home.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR




From: "Peter Treby"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:27:25 +1000

Here's three of mine:
1. Sleeping bag too light, freezing all night.
2. Failing to re-pack food in suitable plastic containers, bags, and having
food escape inside pack.
3. Forgetting stove, matches. Raw rice is not palatable.
Regards,
Peter Treby
37* 42' S 145* 08' E




From: "Whyte, David"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:11:33 +1000

Peter I would just make one suggestion.

make a list and use it to check of your camping gear before putting
it in the car.

With 20 bushwalking and 10 years camping from canoes and kayakers I
find I still forget things. So I have a list for kayaking, hiking, XC skiing
etc. I check everything off before I put it into bags or backpacks.  
  
If you want a list for kayaking I will gladly forward one on to you.


I grew up near Newcastle on the shores of Lake Macquarie. My parents
gave me a canoe when I was 9 and they got so sick of me getting up early on
the weekends to go fishing out of it that they knocked out my window and put
in a door

Cheers
David




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:01:16 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes

1.  Bringing too much stuff.  Too many campers think of a camping trip
as an extension of their dining room, bedroom and backyard.  The more
you bring to achieve the creature comforts of home, the more you have to
carry to and from your boat, the heavier your boat will be, etc.  Less
means more in enjoying the natural world around you.

2.  Putting the stuff into big dry bags.  Use lots of small to medium
sized bags.  Write the contents on them or have some color code as to
their contents.  Bigger dry bags are harder to pack into a boat and
harder to find items in.  In this imperfect world, dry bags do fail.  If
you have your contents in 3 dry bags and one fails, one third of your
stuff gets wet.  If you have them in 8  or 9, then only a little over 10
percent gets wet.

3.  Hanging around camp in the morning on a multi-day trip.  If you are
trying to cover any considerable distances, you are almost always better
off getting out near the crack of dawn, without breakfast (have an
energy bar and some water), and paddling three hours or so before
stopping for your oatmeal.  The reason: statistically and
athmospherically seas and winds are at their calmest in the early
morning (also very late in the day as darkness descends).  If you get
out early, you will have a better chance at getting in some miles along
your course (3 hours times 3.5 knots gives you some 10 miles of distance
under your belt).  If conditions do become unsettled later, you won't
find yourself attempting to press through bad seas because you feel a
need to achieve some distance that day.  If conditions remain good, you
can paddle lots or settle in earlier in the day at a landing and
campsite picked with greater leisure. You hardly ever hear of an
expedition gone bad in the early morning; most of the s--t hits the fan
in the afternoon when people are trying to get somewhere in bad
conditions.

In general, go as minimalist and St. Francis saintly as you can rather
than hedonistic and Yuppie modern day worldly and gadget-laden.

ralph diaz  
--




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:24:13 -0500
From: Will Jennings
Subject: [Paddlewise] 3 Mistakes when camping

I'd echo much of what's already been said. I'd add these FWIW.

1.  Failure to adapt. Maps lie, gear breaks, companion's attitudes
waver, energy rises and falls, weather happens. Focus on gear and
technique often places a thicker distance between us and the environments
we encounter. I've known people to nearly wander off cliffs their maps
said couldn't exist, seen people at trailheads calling Garmin Customer
Service on their cell phone to explain to them why their GPS didn't match
up with the posted markers, observed people heading out into very cold
water and iffy conditions w/o being dressed for immersion because their
double-wide kayaks "never tip". Darwin is right....those who don't have
the skills to adapt are most likely the first to exit the gene pool.

2.  Learn to recognize pleasure.  Start small. The bigger pleasures are
usually an aggregate.  Enjoy the physical cadence of making your way
through a small part of the world, relish the mental and emotional
challenge of negotiating time and space. This sounds far too
metaphysical....but the truth is that most of what I gather and retain
from my ventures is a collection of smaller experiences that lead me to
feel better, more often, over longer and longer periods of time. This
doesn't require the purchase of any particular gear.

3.  Take conscious time to pay attention to the task at hand. Lists
help you to remember. Methods help break the larger tasks into smaller,
more readily accomplished and repeatable sequences/steps. If you find
yourself worried about a crossing, or the weather, and you are trying to
pack up camp at the same time, you're not giving either the full measure
of your focus. Once I was caught in a high camp as a furious lightening
storm approached. Rather than finding refuge in the thicker woods a few
hundred feet below, I hurriedly tried to break camp to hike out... my bear-bag
line was snagged in the one tall tree near by, and as the gunshot was going
off around me, I yanked by 'biner weighted line with all my might. It sproinged
loose, whizzing straight for my scalp and opened a lovely, gushing head wound
than had to be treated before we could make a safe zone out of the storm. Small
casualty resulting from not paying attention to bad decision making that might
have caused a much more tragic result than my bruised ego. I could swear I
heard the whistle telling me to get out of the gene pool.

     If weather and conditions concern you, make the time to deal with those
concerns in a rational, reasonable manner. Give everyone ample time to work
through their own process and voice their concerns or decision. If a beginner
is worried about facing rough conditions, and everyone else is hurriedly packing
camp to 'get underway', the momentum is on going, and you've just upped the
chances that a chain of events might unfold off your group's weakest link.
Bad idea.

-will




From: "Sailboat Restorations, Inc."
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:50:37 -0400

This is turning into a "what do you carry camping" thread, which interests
me, as I have been trying to fine-tune my lists. . .

I like Ralph's approach re minimalism. Coming from backpacking, I was
thrilled to realize how much gear a kayak can carry. So I bought just about
everything I could find that would fit -- folding chairs and tables, screen
tent, larger tent, etc etc etc.  On a recent three-day (solo) camping trip,
I left most of it behind, and didn't miss it. Just my smallest tent,
Whisperlite and a little fuel, basic foods, water, Gatorade, Crazy Creek,
bag, mini-Thermarest and a book (which I never opened). I was quite happy
with this.

A couple of things that I will carry on future trips (keep in mind I'm
getting old and soft): (1) a hammock, which I got at Kittery Trading Post
for $11.95 -- one of the best purchases I ever made (ahhh, now that's
luxury); (2) a "camp shower" by Cascade Designs -- I always regarded those
things as stupid, but this one is good quality and I found it worthwhile;
(3) a full-size Therma-Rest -- I had the little one (in the old days, I
didn't carry any such thing at all, being a tough guy...), but it just
wasn't quite enough for these old bones (which was made worse on the first
night I used it because I forgot that you have to blow the things up (duh);
(4) a good pillow of some sort (which I haven't bought yet but will, being,
as I said, old and soft now); (5) my little Coleman battery powered
"lantern" - I felt silly buying this "car camping" relif, but it was great
in the tent at night, no worry about flames etc.; (6) some wine in a Nalgene
bottle; (7) at least some of my nature field guides -- to me, that is still
one of the greatest pleasures of camping; the books help me identify the
world around me (trees, bugs, birds, etc), and help me to focus on that
world, rather than the one I left behind; they weigh a lot, but are worth it
(also carry pad and pencil to take notes); (8) a variety of footwear (eg, I
have some mocassins that are great for in the tent and when I first get out
of it; walking shoes for short hikes, Tevas for walking out into the water
to bath, wash dishes, etc). . .  There are lots of other items that are
obviously essential.  I listed these because they may not be on everyone's
list. . . .

Oh, biggest mistakes: forgetting matches (argggghh!), forgetting soap,
forgetting TP (I carry paper towels in a zip-lock bag).

Mark




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:50:04 -0400
From: John Fereira
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes

At 01:51 AM 8/14/00 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote:

>Oh, boy, is my hopper full of recent experience on this one!  Peter, I can't
>stop at just three.  Please do not ask why I am so acutely tuned to these
>errors (especially the last one -- arrrgh!).

Since I just got back from three days of kayak camping in the Adirondacks I
can add a few items, that though could have spelled disaster actually
turned out all right (mostly, due to blind luck and remembering to pack a
sense of humor.

We all met the night before to plan things out.  The guy that sort of
organized the trip planned on leaving early in the day so that he could get
to Little Tupper Lake and select a campsite.  The other four of us left
Ithaca around 4:00pm and even with a conservative estimate should have put
us at the lake around the time it got dark.  With detours, traffic slowed
down due to a steady rain all the way there, a stop for dinner that took
longer than expected, and a bit of shopping to pick up some extra supplies
we arrive at the lake around 11:00pm.  (lesson #1: factor in lots of extra
time for travel time to your destination)

After arriving we found the campsite check-in board and found that Ed had
arrived but for some reason neglected to write down the number of the
campsite he'd paddled off to.  So now we start checking the tags which
indicate which camps that full and try to figure out which one didn't have
a log entry.  Of course, we also assumed that Ed had flipped over the tag
for the campsite he'd gone too.  That narrowed it down to about four
different camps so we decided to just try and head for one of the empty
sites and look for Ed (I won't mention some of the things we talked about
doing to him when we found him) in the morning.  

The campsite we picked out was about 2 miles (or was it one and a half?)
down the lake.  Of course, none of us had ever been to this lake before,
and didn't know what the markers looked like for identifying the camp
sites, and it was raining so visibility was not good, and we had fully
loaded kayaks (much more so than three of us had ever tried paddling
before).  So given all these factors we did what any rational person would
do;  we got into our kayaks and paddled off into the dark...and the rain.

The kayaks felt very stable with the extra weight and armed with a 8"x11"
map printed off using the Delorme software using an inkjet printer on which
I had marked *most* of the campsite numbers we attempted to located
campsite #20.  We were able to avoid paddling into the shallows most of the
time and made pretty good progress.  After paddling about 15 minutes I got
out the map (lesson #2:  don't forget to bring the waterproof map case) and
we found a couple of landmarks and made a good guess as to where we were.
After passing an island (which wasn't on the map) we began looking for a
little inlet, where by my calculations preceeded camp #20.  After passing
that "inlet" we rounded a point and discovered what had to be the *real*
inlet we were looking for ...in the dark...in the rain.  I got out the map
again and decided that the camp should be somewhere along the next 1000' or
so of shore.

After going about 1500' or so and reaching the next island I got out the
map again,  pieced it together where it was ripping in half and decided
that camp #19 (or was that smudge an 18) should be on the island we were
next to.  We followed along the shore and didn't see any marks for a camp
(assuming that we knew what to look for) so we rafted up again to decide
what to do.  Camp 18 (or was it 19?) *could* be on that next island...oooh,
there's a light on the opposite shore.  We decided to paddle across the
lake (about a 1/4 mile) and find the source of the light so that we could
find out which camp it was and figure out where to go next.  When we got
across we did find a camp, but as we found out the next day it wasn't the
source of the light.  It was camp #11 and according to my map (which was
now almost unrecognizable as a map) camp #20 should be about due east
(lesson #3:  having a compass is a good thing).  Of course, I couldn't read
my compass in the dark (lesson #4:  check the batteries on your headlamp
before leaving) but was able to pick out a landmark before heading across.
Hey...it stopped raining.

We paddled across toward the landmark and within two minutes of reaching
shore located campsite #20.  We managed to get out of our boats without
falling in and started to unload.  I managed to just get my backpacking
lantern (lesson #4:  bring several light sources) lit when it started to
rain again.  We finally got everything unloaded, tents set up, food hung
and climbed into our tents around 2:30am in the morning.  We also came up
with several more ideas on what we were going to do to Ed when we found him.

It rained all night but was much lighter when we woke up and started to
make coffee.  "I think it's going to clear up...", someone said.  It
didn't.  We also found that we were suprisingly awake for 6:00am.  After a
brief breakfast we climbed back into our kayaks to hunt down, I mean, find
Ed's campsite.  We found that we were real close to the island we had gone
around the night before, so we skirted the opposite shore looking for a
site.  Just as we got past it I saw a tent on the next island and there was
Ed standing on a rock waving to us.  We had passed within 200' or so of his
site the night before.

The trip went mostly uphill from then on...except that it didn't stop
raining until that night.

Final Lesson:  don't ever, ever, forget to bring bug repellant.
Fortunately we had plenty.




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:49:23 -0400
From: Michael R Noyes
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes

"Sailboat Restorations, Inc." wrote:

> This is turning into a "what do you carry camping" thread, which interests
> me, as I have been trying to fine-tune my lists. . .
>
> I like Ralph's approach re minimalism.  Coming from backpacking, I was
> thrilled to realize how much gear a kayak can carry.

I am more from a car camping and canoe camping background, so I am also
interested in fine tuning.  My biggest problem right now is my cook set. My set
needed to work for the "Michael feeds the masses" scenario, so it is a bit much
for kayaking. I got a few odd looks from my companions in Acadia when I pulled
out a gym bag with my "kitchen" in it. One backpacking stove (I left my three
Coleman two burners at home), one backpacking lantern, assorted pots out to
twelve quarts, two frying pans, cups, plates, bowls, and SEVEN sets of
silverware! Not to mention the ladles, spatulas, and cutting board. Oh yes,
the measuring cups, salt and pepper shakers, and butane lighter (large type).
    I think with a smaller cook set, one set of silverware, and ditch the four
man tent for a smaller one, I might have a good start. So I am following this
thread with interest.

Lesson from this one, too much can be almost as bad as not enough.

Mike


--
    Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are
visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great
blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a
mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your
passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space.
Mark H Hunt




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:47:20 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes

Sandy mentioned the Eureka Zephyr.  I have the earliest version without
vestibules and it works just fine.  An excellent one-person tent at a
good weight and price with sit-up room for a six footer.

As for stove, fuel etc. again the minimalist just to heat water for
coffee, hot chocolate, oatmeal, freezed dry food (the kind that doesn't
need to simmer or cook as that wastes fuel).  I like the butane ones,
any of the small ones will do.  Butane would be real inefficient and
costly if you did cooking with it rather than heating up water.

My camping gear for 6 days including food, stove/fuel/pots/cup/utensils,
tent, sleeping bag, sleep pad, extra clothing, lighting (small
flashlights and small candle lantern with spare candles), a liter of
wine, absolutely everything (except my normal paddling gear and water)
weighs 28-29 pounds.

This provides a good measure of comfort without weighing me down and
that weight includes a small tarp for waiting out bad weather or for
providing a warm covered area over a hanging out/cooking area (a tarp
over you reduces radiation from your body by an impressive amount; on a
cool evening, the air underneath appears to be 15 degrees warmer, just a
guess.  If I wanted to really rough it I could take 10 pounds off that.
It is also easy to add lots of weight.  I earlier made the mistake that
Mark Lane made in eying all that space in a kayak and filling it.

ralph diaz
--




From: [Sandy Kramer]
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:43:50 EDT
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes

In a message dated 08/14/2000 4:40:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[Peter Osman] writes:

<< Could anyone volunteer the three worst mistakes I could make? Its part
of a sea kayak trip from Sydney (Australia) to Newcastle (Australia).  >>

1.  Forgetting to bring the wine!  We find that Chateau le Cardboard is
great.  You dump the box and are left with a bladder and "faucet."

2.  Forgetting bug repellent, head net, tent with four no-see'um mesh
windows.  Of course if it's winter, disregard!

3.  Forgetting the corkscrew if you ignore the advice in #1!

Seriously, Peter, have a great time.  

PS  It's miserable to be cold in your tent so my next 3 pieces of advice are:

1.  Microfleece - leggings and vest

2.  Polartec 200 fleece jacket

3.  Coolmax T-shirts - long and short-sleeved.

Oh, take a Therm-a-rest or similar self-inflating mattress.  You're tall and
skinny so get the full-length one.  You might be tolerably comfortable on the
Ultra-lite  which is the thinnest and less bulky.  Of course the regular
thickness will be that much more comfy.  

Check out www.campmor.com for a gander at what we have available here.  Their
prices are pretty good.  They sell a small fleece pillow case that you stuff
with clothing to make a pillow.

Solumbra (don't know if that is their dot com address also) makes clothing
that protects from the sun.  Firms like travelsmith.com also carry shirts
made out of this fabric.

Can't wait for the trip report.  Safe trip.

sandy kramer who thinks that polartec fleece is the best thing since sliced
bread
miami




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:23:01 -0700
From: Dave Uebele
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Camping - 3 worst mistakes

I keep seeing this. All these efforts to minimize the packing and the
weight and then almost as an after thought "oh yeah, a bunch of wine".
I have nothing against wine, and a "wine in a box" bladder can
be very useful as a storage or flotation device, but I've always
leaned toward bringing hard alcohol when weight or space is important.
A small flask of scotch packs more buzz than the same weight
of beer or wine.  And if you go with something over 100 proof (P
alcohol) you can use it sterilize items if you have a first aid
issue.  Transfer to a stainless steel hip flask to reduce concerns
about carrying glass bottles.
Granted there are also even lighter, more compact intoxicants, if that
is your preference, though many of them are frowned upon by local
law enforcement.

I admit to suffering the ongoing struggle of gadget infatuation and
minimalism.  For me camping is something of a release from the burden
of day to trappings, as long as don't go so minimal that basic
comfort and health suffer.

So I tend to over pack clothing, trying to cover all weather situations.
Using a layering approach to keeping warm helps reduce the problems there.

Also, at 6'2" I have trouble finding a tent that I fit in, without
waking up with either feet or head up against the tent (and dripping wet
as a result).  I wonder what group of midgets do they use to calculate
the "sleeps 3" rating on a tent.  And none of these ratings assume
you'll want anything other then 3 pygmies in sleeping bags, while
I usually want to bring in other gear, to keep it close, or protect
from the elements.

My favorite tent to actually have room is a North Face Expedition 25.
But that is a pretty serious and expensive tent 4 season tent. Plus
its heavier.

I keep eyeballing some of these bivy sack style tents with just
enough space for a sleeping bag and wonder how they could be useful, if
how I would fit inside and yet, for a minimal, get away from the world
approach, they have a certain appeal.  I might have to see if I can borrow
or rent one sometime.

I'll bring a stove, but I find that mostly I tend to prefer
no-cook nibble food, carrots, celery, protein bars, dried meats and
fruits, "trail mix", etc. and nibble during any available break.
I'm not a coffee drinker, so firing up the stove in the morning for
coffee is less of an issue, just plenty of drinking water.  There also
are times when a hot meal, boiling water, or extra heat source is
important, so a stove is handy there.

dave




Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:37:05 -0700
From: Doug Lloyd
Subject: [Paddlewise] Gear list request

David said:

<< So many people have asked me for a copy of my gear list that it is
probably easier if I cut and paste it into an email and send it to the
list. I will fix up any spelling and odd abbreviations and send it in
the next day or so. >>

David, et al:
Just started reading a couple of recent digest versions from most recent
to older (was away a week). So, I don't know if anyone else posted their
check lists, or if I should add mine to any ongoing lists. My list is
more specific, as I keep it for insurance purposes along with a video
tape kept at a relatives (only way I get replacement value with my
underwriter) and as a final check before leaving on a trip. Hope it
might be useful! BTW, this is not a completely current list - some
deletions additions have been made. Not all items are always taken,
either. It is cut and pasted, so may look odd.

CHECK LIST - Doug Lloyd

Kayak (heavily modified 1980 Nordkapp)
Paddle (Lendal Crank/Archippelago or straight loom/Nordkapp, depending
on trip)
Paddle Leash (North Water - coiled)
Spare paddle (Seamaster)
Deck knife (diver's model affixed to deck, in scabbard with coiled
tether to handle)
Diver's writing slate with pencil (Fastex-buckled to deck)
Front deck paddle float (single chamber)
Front net bag (North Water, Small) with:
   -Throw bag/towline (50 feet)
   -Sponge
   -Hand Held Flare in Ziplock
   -Flare gun/cartriges -  all in Ziplock, then in waterproof bag
   -Noise maker
Rear deck bag (North Water, Large) with:
   -Rear deck double-chamber paddle float
   -Heavy duty orange rescue bag
   -Large parachute flare in Ziplock
   -Platypus hydration water bladder/tube
Rear deck flag
Helmet with sun-visor (optional to trip) with Fastex-buckle to deck
Cockpit water bottle (recessed into knee tube)
Curved lexan deck water bottle (for Gatorade)
Chart(s) and deck chart case (Ortelib)
Parallel rules
Topographical map(s) (if required)
Park brochures, etc.
Tide/current tables (Xeroxed and/or laminated)
Inside knee tube, top-deck access:
   -VHF radio and case
   -Cell phone and case
   -Monocular
   -Sun block grease for lips and face
   -Sunscreen spray (to avoid slippery hands)
   -GPS (to purchase)
   -Class B EPIRB (to purchase)
In knee tube, in small North Face zippered net container:
   -Small container antacid pills
   -Waterproof Band-Aids
   -Kleenex in Ziplock for glasses (with defog agent)
   -Tylenol (more in aid kit)
   -Bug repellent (spray)
Cockpit Cover
Full Length Thermarest ( in stuff sack, in sealed bag)
Sleeping bag (in garbage bag, in compression sack)
Pillow (stuff bag, fleeced one side)
Tent (North Face Nimbus (in Outdoor Research bag, with overhead loft
net)
Tent fly (in nylon stuff sack)
Tent ground sheet (in stuff sack)
Tent poles (in nylon stuff sack)
Tent pegs (in nylon stuff sack)
Aluminum space sheet (HD)
Nylon tarp and tie lines in stuff sack
Food hanging rope (100' twisted poly)
Bear spray (in Cordura case, fastens to SealPack beach hip bag)
Day knife (with sheath, fastens to SP beach hip bag)
Small SealPak beach hip bag, and inside are:
   -Small weather radio
   -Spare cell phone battery
   -Spare VHF 6-double A's battery pack
   -Spare 3-volt camera battery
   -Small camera tripod
   -Eyeshades (for early bed times, beach resting)
   -Wallet/keys
   -Smoke flare spare (in case of fall/attack away from kayak, etc.)
   -Emergency cash
   -List of local VHF frequencies and their use (such as ferry channel,
local chat channel, etc.)
WR90 camera and case
NEC MobilePro HPC in Otter Box (two double A's)
Petzl Duo Headlamp (4 Double A's)
Survival saw (folding)
Spare prescription glasses and clip-on, in case
Small Sea Otter box with spare double A's - 8 (all equipment runs off
same size), camera batteries
Net bags (three sizes hold all gear for transportation up/down beach)
Stove, fuel, base stabilizer, wind-break:
   -Coleman propane stove with spare canister if trip under one week
   -Multifuel gas with gas bottle if longer expedition trip
MSR cooking set  (two pots with plate/lid, in drawstring bag) inside
small pot are:
   -MSR round container with round plastic cutting board
   -Pot holder
   -Matches in Ziplock (NO BIC LIGHTERS - they can explode in a fire)
   -Sea Soap
   -Pot scrubber
   -Mini pan/pot scraper
North Face zippered net bag:
   -MSR folding pot strainer, ladle and griddle flipper
   -Lexan eating utensils
   -Mini cheese grater
   -Mini can opener x 2
   -Two-part Pristine water purification drops (Chlorine Dioxide)
   -Bear bell
   -Day snack (net bag is kept in most accessible hatch)
   -Pre-packaged Alpen cold breakfast cereal (placed previous night)
   -Salt/Pepper/Seasoning
   -Prescription pills and vitamins in "daily" pill box reminder
   -Butane refillable lighter with closing lid (as a back-up)
Small Lexan bottle - wide mouth (hold one full can condensed milk and
mixed water)
Water bladders (including MSR, Cascade Designs, and burnable mineral
water bottles)
Stainless steel insulated cup (use for morning cold cereal, as well as
tea, etc.)
Lexan cup (for expeditions, replace SS cup)
Ziplock bags (large and small, various uses, garbage, day meals, etc.)
PackTowel in PT case
Toilet paper (in Ziplocks, cores removed)
In 8 x 30 yellow roll-top bag:
   -Note book, pencil, sharpener
   -Reading material
   -Tensor elbow brace
   -Outdoor Research zippered fold-out pouch for toiletries, with hook
In above zipper pouch:
   -Antifungal/Cortizone Cream (prescription)
   -Tea Tree oil
   -Unscented deodorant
   -Dental floss
   -Folding toothbrush
   -Toothpaste
   -Chapstick
   -Visine eye drops
   -Robaxacet muscle relaxers
   -Ibuprofen
   -Anti-nausea pills
   -Tinactin foot fungus cream
   -Antacid effervescing powder packages
   -Claritin allergy pills
   -Fucidine topical antibiotic
   -Phen-oris medicated lip cream
   -"Q-Tips"
   -Imodium diarrhea packages
   -Herbal sleeping pills
   -Various Asprin/Tylanol pills
   -Travel mirror
In 8 x 30 red roll top:
   -OR fold-out pouch First Aid Kit
   -Repair Kit
In First Aid Kit:
   -Sting Ease, Betadine skin cleanser, Tensor roll bandage, Polysporin,
adhesive tape, eye cup,
    Gauze roll, first aid scissors, Ipecac Syrup, large heavy pressure
dressing, gloves, Spenco
    Adhesive Knit tape, Spenco supersorb padding, Spenco second skin,
surgical scalpel with spare
    blades,  laceration closure Band-Aids, 40 mm polyglycolic acid
suture sets, alchol wipes, various
    telfa sterile dressings, sterile combine pads, triangular bandage,
aluminum
    split material, finger splint, male external catheter, fine point
tweezers, needles, Operating  room
    scissors, antibiotic pills, bee sting kit (prescription), tube
gauze, Butterfly closures, Burn ointment

In Repair Kit:
   -Victorinox multi-tool, West System epoxy repair pack, various grits
sandpaper, string,
    hose clamps, duct tape, sewing set, eyeglass repair kit, spare
flashlight bulbs, piece of  hacksaw
    blade, drill bits, assorted plastic ties, cotter pins, nuts and
bolts, lubricant (anti-rust), various
    wire,   rudder repair kit

CLOTHING
Two Pair Patagonia Capilene underwear shorts
North Face medium weight tights
North Face lightweight shirts (short sleeve and long with neck zipper,
for paddling in)
Sierra Designs fleece outer pants
Sea Kayaker fleece vest
Patagonia fleece socks (lightweight and heavy)
Fleece shirt
SealSkins Goretex socks
Quick Dry shorts
Cotton tank top for sleeping
Ripstop Nylon "First Light" fast-dry pants and shirt
Navarro Fleece paddling sweater
Navarro Summer Nylon paddling jacket
Navarro SympaTex red drytop
Navarro nylon rain pants
Navarro nylon paddling pants (wetsuit ankle/waist closures - for winter
time)
Navarro lightweight lined poggies
Neoprene poggies (for winter)
Sierra Designs fleece watch cap (for winter)
Outdoor Research Gortex baseball cap
Outdoor Research Gortex wide brimmed rain hat
Cotton "flight-deck" cap with neck protection
Paddling gloves (full neoprene, fingerless neoprene, and synthetic
fingerless lightweight)
Skull cap
Chota boots (soled high-top wet suit boots)
Teva sandals
Nike Aqua Socks
Farmer John custom-fit wetsuit with front relief zipper
Lotus Designs PFD with attachments:
   -Dual flashlight/strobe on back
   -Dual Lotus back-bags, custom sew vertically
   -In first bag above, Sea Seat rescue devise (mini life raft)
   -In second bag above, wilderness survival kit (fire starter, flares,
food, emerg fishing gear, etc.)
   -In large front pocket, Skyblazer flares, two sizes of flashlights
   -In small front pocket, two smoke signals, high intensity signal
mirror, Lock-It folding knife
   -Upper chest rescue belt, with North Water tow bungie and 10-foot
river-tow pouch/tether
   -Whistle

Phoenix double-tube spray skirt with suspenders, custom inner latex seal

Emergency food
SeaLine Baja 5 roll-top bags
Various other bags

BC'in Ya
Doug Lloyd (who will try to post the Storm Island summer trip report
later)




Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:20:16 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Gear list request

Doug Lloyd wrote:
>
> CHECK LIST - Doug Lloyd



A very impressive list.  Good thing you are not a gear-head! :-)

Seriously though, just a few comments/questions:

--Notice that Doug puts his Thermarest in a dry bag.  Some paddlers
thinking that the pad is covered with waterproof fabric, don't give it
that extra measure of protection.  They sometimes wind up sleeping on a
wet surface.  Tents, tent poles, and tarps should also be similarly
protected even though the fabrics are largely waterproof and the poles
of aluminum.  Tent poles can corrode in saltwater as some paddlers have
found out.  Protect everything.

--Doug, what is the weight of everything not including the kayak and
paddles?  Better stated, do you have the weight for ordinary day paddle
gear and the weight for camping gear and food?

--When you speak of keeping a careful record for insurance purposes is
it just to document lost gear for insurance coverage? Or is it also to
cover your own possible demise (something I pray will never happen to
such a nice and noble person such as you who I have grown to like even
though not having met) to underscore that you were not recklessly
unprepared for whatever conditions did you in and therefore your
beneficiaries are entitled to file a claim for benefits under your life
insurance policy?  I don't mean to be morbid or blunt but it is possible
that some recalcitrant insurance claims adjuster might see your paddling
style as reckless and risky (even suicidal); such obvious preparedness
in gear (and vastly tested experience) would prove otherwise.

Again, thanks for such a complete list with lots of food for thought.

ralph diaz
--




Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:21:47 -0700
From: Doug Lloyd
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Gear list request

ralph diaz wrote:

> A very impressive list.  Good thing you are not a gear-head! :-)

Sorry for delay in response -- I'm in and out of town right now, so please
don't be offended by any apparent long delays getting back on subjects.

Me, a gear head? Naw, I was told the Nordkapp handles better with a full
load, so by packing dense, I have the best handling Nordkapp around. Packing
dense, now there's a pun :-)

Actually, so little of my kayak shows in a rough sea under a full load, that
I hardly notice winds (well, some days it seems). Also, I can pack as much
as some others with higher volume kayaks, due to my use of four compartments
and low-profile deck net bags and a consistent loading pattern varied only
slightly for down-wind running. I do have overload buckles on the rear deck,
but only use them on the rarest occasion, if ever. By using large "laundry
net bags" to transport gear to the waterside, and then having most things in
smaller, slender bags, I can load that Nordkapp like no body's business. The
addition of an VCP oval hatch immediately abaft of the cockpit has been a
godsend for loading. I also use the aluminum space blanket if needed, to
place beside the kayak while loading, which keeps the gear clean and grit
free. Gear can "get in the way" of the wilderness experience. However, with
my experience and organization, I find all the gear helps me "participate"
in wilderness adventure travel in a safer, more efficient manner. I _have_
seen the opposite on some trips, where individuals were overwhelmed by all
the gear and loading permutations. Going naked with a stick and a log is not
something i would enjoy, though I'd love to see Nigel Foster do this at a
one of his symposium talks on paddling techniques (well, perhaps some of the
females would!).

> Seriously though, just a few comments/questions:
>
> --Notice that Doug puts his Thermarest in a dry bag.  Some paddlers
> thinking that the pad is covered with waterproof fabric, don't give it
> that extra measure of protection.  They sometimes wind up sleeping on a
> wet surface.  Tents, tent poles, and tarps should also be similarly
> protected even though the fabrics are largely waterproof and the poles
> of aluminum.  Tent poles can corrode in saltwater as some paddlers have
> found out.  Protect everything.

Amen. Gear is expensive, so why not protect it and keep it for a long time.
Is that not part of good stewardship of earth's resources from whence our
gear came? Not only do bags/stuff sacks, etc.,  keep gear from getting wet,
they help keep off grime, grit, dirt, destructive saltwater, etc. Also,
loading in the rain isn't a pain when each and every item is in its own
protective bag or grouped in same, etc.

>
>
> --Doug, what is the weight of everything not including the kayak and
> paddles?  Better stated, do you have the weight for ordinary day paddle
> gear and the weight for camping gear and food?

ITEM.................................................................RUNNING
TOTAL

Kayak, with permanent accessories.....................87 lbs
With deck items in place.....................................102 lbs (add 14
lbs)
With knee tube full, camera, deck water..............111 lbs (add 9 lbs)
With basic default gear and lunch........................126 lbs (add 15
lbs)
With basic multi-day gear added.........................162 lbs (add 36 lbs)

Per day weight of food/water is 5 lbs...................187 lbs (add 25 lbs
5-day trip)
Weight of booties, PFD,skirt, wetsuite.................202 lbs (add 15 lbs)
Current weight of paddler....................................408 lbs (add
206 lbs)

This list is based on my last trip (and some prior day-trip weights), which
I happened to do an actual weighing of as I was curious, especially given
the fact that all modifications likely to be made to my Nordkapp are now
complete, and I don't have any more gear I need now, other than EPIRB and
GPS someday. So, it looks like a day trip runs at 38 lbs, and an overnight
trip (one night only) runs 79 lbs, respectively, minus boat, paddling gear
and paddle/paddler. In winter, I add more gear like a Thermos, fleece
jacket, more poly underwear, and more dense food stuffs, soups for mid-day
warm up; but, I take less water as it is more plentiful along the coast.

Note that my food tends to be on the heavy side, as I take condensed liquid
milk, Alpen cold cereal, cans of beans and chile, boil-in-bag rice, power
bars, gorp, dried apricots/apples/pears, etc., back up Kraft pasta dinners.
I only do "gourmet" cooking when I take my wife. I gave up on alchol due to
gastric problems intrinsic to sitting in a kayak. Trips over 10 days tend to
be more of the freeze-dried food variety. On my own, I tend to push myself
in the elements, and have little energy at the end of the day for food
preparation. I am often on the water by 6:00 am (even earlier occasionally),
and breakfast takes four minutes for a fast go. I often do some major
paddling in the late afternoon once winds calm down again when running the
length of an exposed coast with summer wind patterns. I think I would have
expired long ago if it wasn't for the early starts. Winter tripping, all
bets are off. Survival in a moment by moment affair, with constant
re-evaluation needed and lots of escape routes, and decisive action taken in
compliance with gut feelings to get off the water NOW. Good gear is a must.
You can be stuck for days in one place (though I always find narrow windows
to keep moving).

I've also added a few things to my last gear list from 1999. Dye marker,
Glow sticks, Patagonia moisture barrier vest (insulates in winter, keeps
wind off torso in summer), a hand held compass, back-up cheap watch to my
regular diver's model, light wind shell for summer, and I take my old hooded
Wildwasser seam sealed paddling jacket for rain camping in the winter (it is
totally waterproof). Alas, rubber boots don't find room in a Nordkapp.

> --When you speak of keeping a careful record for insurance purposes is
> it just to document lost gear for insurance coverage? Or is it also to
> cover your own possible demise (something I pray will never happen to
> such a nice and noble person such as you who I have grown to like even
> though not having met) to underscore that you were not recklessly
> unprepared for whatever conditions did you in and therefore your
> beneficiaries are entitled to file a claim for benefits under your life
> insurance policy?

Both. Insurance adjusters like visual proof via a list and video tape or
still pictures in case of theft, loss, or fire, etc. My gear list also goes
on the back of my float plan, along with how many days water and food
(including back-up food) I'm carrying. I know if I die, i will be labeled
irresponsible no matter what, if I'm solo; so at least, a list goes a long
way to showing "whomever" that some responsibility was apparent. I know on
our last rescue, the Coasties were very impressed with the collective
equipment and preparation and prior experience and training. Me nice and
noble? Naw, why Matt said he wouldn't sell me one of his kayaks, as he
wouldn't want to see the Mariner name appearing in some future
accident/incident review/report. Of course, I'm not sure if the possible
truth to this is due to the fact of my track record, or perhaps a prophetic
utterance he didn't realize at the time matt said this to me, due to the
implication that one of his Mariner kayaks might not survive one of my trips
:-)

> I don't mean to be morbid or blunt but it is possible
> that some recalcitrant insurance claims adjuster might see your paddling
> style as reckless and risky (even suicidal); such obvious preparedness
> in gear (and vastly tested experience) would prove otherwise.

Funny you should mention this. As I left Port Hardy last week, a gale was
blowing. A lady in a business outfit came up to me and asked me where I was
going. I pointed to some offshore island in the distance. She said "You're
going out there, today?" She then took  my name and number, and said she
would call me in a few weeks upon my return to sell me "no-fault" accident
insurance. $50,000, no questions asked upon one's demise if it was sports
related. My current policies are fairly good, but there is often fine print
regarding "white water kayaking and river rafting". Insurance companies
still consider seagoing activities relatively safe, it would seem. Suicidal,
eh? I just call it fun. Living in New York - now that's suicidal :-) (Mug
mug, bang bang, crash crash).

> Again, thanks for such a complete list with lots of food for thought.

No problem. I'll "cc" the list the above response, as the weight
calculations might be useful to some folks. Take care ralph. Keep up the
great work with Canoe and Kayak magazine. I get the magazine now, since the
new editor took over and you started contributing. Hope the new head honcho
there works out. He sounds like a down-to-earth type. Gotta go. "She who
must be obeyed" is telling me to get off the computer.

BC'in Ya
Doug Lloyd (who loves these "heavy" subjects, but is a very down-to-earth,
gravity-pulled fellow most of the time)




From: "Whyte, David"
Subject: [Paddlewise] gear list
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:58:08 +1000

A lot of people asked me for a copy of my gear list so I thought it would be
easier if I just posted it to the list. There are many out there who have
done more trips or have better lists so I am sure there are holes in mine
but it has done me for quite a few years. Coming from a bushwalking
background mine is probably a bit sparten

David
Canberra, Australia

I made this current one up when earlier this year I went on a 5 week trip
with two other paddlers. I didn't take everything on this list and I posted
some stuff home after  4 days. I find it better to have more on my list then
I need then decide when I am packing whether to take it or not depending on
where I am going or what I am doing. For example we didn't take the water
purifier as we knew there would be enough supplies of clean water.

Lists are a bit personal so I will add the following:

I do a lot of photography so take quite a bit of camera gear. I love looking
at the slides when a trip is over.
I haven't mentioned pumps as I have a foot pump permanently mounted on my
front bulkhead which is custom built for my size.
I don't have a paddle float system
I am rethinking my first aid kit at the moment.
I am looking into vhf radios but haven't decided yet. The way cell(mobile)
phones are going I may not need one
I would like a GPS but have got by for so long now with a map and compass
that I haven't been able to justify the cost. They are still over $300 in
Australia
Really cold water is not usually an issue where I paddle
I paddle solo as well as with groups
I don't use a lot of dry bags (they are heavy and expensive) except for
camera gear, sleeping bag and some of the warm clothing. The rest I put in
ripstop nylon bags that I knocked up on a sewing machine. If the hatch
filled with water it would be a nuisance but not life threatening.


Expedition Gear List

Canoe Gear
Spray skirt
Life jacket
Sail
Bailer
Sponge
Canoe shoes
Paddle and spare
Paddle leash
Tow line
EPRIB
V sheet
Flares
Dye
Life jacket knife
Goggles and snorkel
Paddling  gloves (light ones for sun protection)
Paddling shorts
Kayak mounted Compass

Camping gear
Tent, poles & sand pegs
Ground sheet
Stove and fuel
Fuel bottle
Billy
Matches
Sleeping bag
Silk inner
thermarest
Stool or sitting matt
Headlamp & spare batt
Torch & spare batts
Mess kit
Cord
Fly & rope
Trowel
Insect repellant
Sun cream 2 lots
Lip cream
Notebook pens and pencil
Maps
Bushwalking Compass
Water bottles & wine casks
Matches
Toilet paper
Soap & razor
Toothbrush, comb
First aid kit
Bratice bag
Clothes pegs
Watch
Small AM/FM radio
Water purifier
Reading book (usually for solo trips)
Will buy a walkman one day for solo trips as well to listen to music

Fishing gear
Fishing knife
Fishing line and lures
heavy trolling line
hooks and sinkers
trace wire & swivels
Hand spear

Clothes
Hat and spare
Sun glasses (2)
Underwear
two t-shirts
thermals (2 tops)
Polar fleece pants
Track pants to wear to pub
2 pairs shorts
long sleeve shirt
woollen jumper
sleeveless jacket
rash shirt
sports sandals
walking shoes
long pants
Raincoat
overpants
Swimmers
Spare clothes in car
Day pack
Water (15 litres)

Camera gear
Camera (SLR and Underwater)
Film
tripod check quick release socket
Cable release
Filters (polariser and RED)
Lens
Lens cleaners
spare batteries
Flash & batteries
Binoculars

Repair Kit
Seam Sealer
Pliers (leatherman)
Screw driver
Some stainless screws
Epoxy
Needle and thread
Cable ties
Boring tool
Tent pole spare tube
Wire saw
Webbing tape
Duc tape
3 metres of cord
Fibreglass repair kit
Elastic bands
Plastic bags
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 00:17:27
Post #38
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 The following discussion occurred on the PaddleWise mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission.


Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dave Gutierrez
Subject: [Paddlewise] Help with foldable!!!

Alright.  I am in a bind here so I really need some
help from all of you with foldables out there.  I am
finally getting ready to leave Bahrain and get back to
the States so I am packing things up.  Well, today I
went to work on my K-1 and I happened to notice, while
taking it apart, that two of the pipe segments would
not seperate from one another!!!!  The water out here
is VERY SALTY and I know that I am supposed to rinse
my kayak out.  To be honest with you, I have been away
from my home quite  abit lately due to the problems
over here in the Middle East.  Well, while I have been
away the salt has taken over that one "join" in my
boat.  Everything else came apart just fine except for
this one.  Any suggestions on how to fix it?  I pray
that there is a tried and tested way of getting these
two parts apart again.  Arghhhh!  Please give me your
guidance.  This is driving me nuts because my boat is
a close friend of mine and I feel like I have let it
down.
Dave




Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:55:14 -0700
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Help with foldable!!!

1.Most likely you will have to sacrifice the segments and request replacements
from Feathercraft.

2. One method to try:

Saturate the joint with penetrant (WD-40, CRC, Boeshield, or equivalent)
overnight.

Tap gently on the outside of the joint with a soft-faced hammer (wood or
plastic or rubber -- not metal) while two strong and dumb buddies (Bruno and
Ahhnold)  pull and twist on the two segments.

Increase severity of tapping (put joint on a solid surface) and allow Bruno and
Ahhnold to twist and pull with more force.

If it works, feed B and A some steak and put them back on leash.

If it does not work, go back to 1.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR




From: "John and Donna Looze"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Help with foldable!!!
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 23:16:01 -0600

Dave;
    Mark's WD 40, or other penetrating oil is a the best place to start.  If
it does not work, a variation is to heat the joints, and then apply the oil
and twist.
    If all else fails there is one way left to try.  It will be hard on the
aluminum, and you MUST exercise great care.  Muriatic acid, a/k/a
hydrochloric acid dissolves minerals, skin, and metals FAST.  You should  to
dilute it.  How much will depend on how diluted it is when you buy it.
    Safety includes rubber gloves, goggles or face mask and a bucket of cold
water standing by.  I would apply it with an eye dropper or a similar device
(eg, large I.V. syringe, sans needle).
    I know it works because I use this technique for the plumbing in my old
house.  Joints that defy the largest wrench will open as if brand new.

JKL




From: "Kevin Stevens"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Help with foldable!!!
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 01:25:17 -0800

You might try this technique used by fisherman on persistent yet fragile
two-piece rods:

Put the rods behind your knees with the joint in the middle.
Reach down and take hold of each rod in a fist with your hands just outside your
knees.
Hold on and force your knees apart.

Gives a straight pull with more force than you can get by hand.

KeS




Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 02:50:41 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Help with foldable!!!

John and Donna Looze wrote:

> [] WD 40, or other penetrating oil is a the best place to start.  If
> it does not work, a variation is to heat the joints, and then apply the oil
> and twist.
>     If all else fails there is one way left to try.  It will be hard on the
> aluminum, and you MUST exercise great care.  Muriatic acid, a/k/a
> hydrochloric acid dissolves minerals, skin, and metals FAST.  You should  to
> dilute it.  How much will depend on how diluted it is when you buy it.
>     Safety includes rubber gloves, goggles or face mask and a bucket of cold
> water standing by.  I would apply it with an eye dropper or a similar device
> (eg, large I.V. syringe, sans needle).
>     I know it works because I use this technique for the plumbing in my old
> house.  Joints that defy the largest wrench will open as if brand new.

Well, muriatic acid is a very powerful acid, and works well on iron pipes, or
copper pipes, but I am skeptical that it is a good idea on an aluminum frame
such as the Feathercraft has.  Aluminum will react pretty fast with it, unlike
iron.

I do not recommend using muriatic acid on aluminum.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
chemist




Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 11:42:35 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Help with foldable!!!

Hi Dave,

I have covered this several times in my newsletter.  Further below is
from the May/June 1997 issue.

I have done some more stuff regarding this but can't find it but will
paraphrase some advice to try before resorting to what appeared in that
1997 article.  It comes from Doug Simpson owner of the company.

Fill the boat with fresh water about half way and swish it around in the
boat.  Empty and repeat the process with somewhat less water, not so
much that you and an assistant or two can't pick it up and begin
twisting the boat some; then empty.  Next fill the boat just a bit with
water and go paddle it preferably over some swells.  All of these
actions will tend to get water into the tube ends, perhaps enough to
then take the boat apart.

(BTW, If you insist on keeping the boat assembled, it is best to do so
upside down which will move bilge water away from the tubes, especially
the keel which is the most likely spot to seize up.  Also do rinse it
out regularly.  And let air out of the sponsons (the sponsons pressing
against the frame help give a curve to the boat, which is fine for
paddling but in storage will also curve the frame and possibly stick
connections together.)

Now the advice from Folding Kayaker three years ago. It is mainly aimed
at the K-Light but applicable to the K-1:

HOW TO UNSSTICK A STUCK FRAME
It happens every spring.  No, not just the birds and the bees.  Paddlers
who have left their Feathercrafts assembled in some nice snug storage
spot, go out for a paddle with the boat.  Then decide to knock it down
for travel somewhere and, well, it won't knock down!
This also happens during the course of the normal summer months
paddling season.  Feathercrafts left assembled from early in the season,
get certain of their parts stuck or frozen together.  This is not an
indictment of what are fine boats especially the K-Light. It is just
that the model is so ubiquitous that more cases of freeze up of them are
being reported than of any other model of folding kayak.
I'm hearing of cases all the time.  Usually the K-Light has been left
assembled for a year or more.  I know someone on the West Coast who is
extremely happy about the problem.  She called me before buying a demo
from a West Coast dealer and I suggested she see if the boat would knock
down.  The dealer, much to his chagrin, couldn't (it had been left
assembled for two years!) and had to hacksaw a piece or two.  The
already low demo price was knocked down even more and new pieces ordered
at the expense of the dealer.  Our new owner of the K-Light was
delighted!
What to do if you have a frozen K-Light?  Well, the first thing or
things obviously is preventative: Don't leave the boat assembled too
long, let's say not beyond about two months.  Also, make certain that
all the connection points are lubricated whenever you are assembling the
boat and plan to leave it that way for a period.  The boat simply will
not stick in ordinary use or if left assembled for trips and vacations.

Step-by-Step
But, OK, you didn't do those things and your boat will not knock down.
What do you do now?  Before you reach for that hacksaw as did the dealer
mentioned above, Here are a number of tips.  They mainly come from Randy
Henriksen of New York Kayaking Company in the heart of Manhattan (601 W.
26th St,  12th fl. NY, NY , phone/fax 212-924-1327) plus other measures
I have seen elsewhere.

1. If the problem is a seized or stuck chine bar, make certain to first
try to straighten out the bar.  Both the chine and gunwale bars on a
K-Light take on a slight curve where they meet in the middle of the boat
and connect with a slider bar.  (The chine bars are the more likely of
the two to stick since they may be lying in bilge water and wet sand
part of the time; the gunwale bars generally don't give any difficulty
because they are above it all.)  So part of the problem is that the
tubes are under sideward tension (as they should be for a good tight
frame when the boat is in use).  Very often, even in boats that seem
stuck, by working on lining up the tubes in a straight line and then
trying to twist or rotate the sliding bar, the adhesion is broken.

2. While doing the above, squirt some lubricant generously around the
ends of the slider.  People have tried WD-40 and other such products.
Check out blister packages at auto supply shops for what might work to
deal with seized or frozen bolts and nuts.  Don't worry about damage to
the skin.  Hypalon is used for all sorts of industrial applications
including conveyor belts to carry corrosive materials.  If you wish slip
some plastic or cardboard behind the area to protect the hypalon
although it really doesn't need it.  Another product that could work is
Boeshield T-9, which is an excellent lubricant to use on the parts
regularly as a preventative measure and is useful for working with parts
when they are already stuck.

3. If the slider and tubes are still stuck bang on them.  The purpose of
this step is to break adhesion and really does work wonders the majority
of the time.  But you don't want to break or bend the tubes in the
process.  Randy recommends that you use a small block of aluminum to
protect the tubes and slider.  The aluminum block or plate should be
about a quarter inch thick and the profile of a pack of cigarettes.
This size of aluminum is the right thickness to transfer a lot of
vibrating force from a hammer's blow to the stuck area but also soft
enough to be sacrificial, i.e. take all the dents while sparing the
tubes any damage.

Take the plate and move it along the area.  First on one of the tubes
just before it enters the slider area, then the slider itself and then
the other adjoining tube.  Be patient and do give it more than just love
taps.  The protective aluminum will allow some forceful hammering blows
but not of the forging iron on an anvil level.

4. Try twisting the slider and tubes in opposite directions.  You have
to be careful here.  A pair of ordinary wrenches will damage the
tubing.  I haven't tried this but some of the strap type pipe wrenches
on the market (which use a band of heavy fabric strapping instead of
chain) might work to do this.  Also a smooth faced set of wrenches and
some rubber strips may also be able to get the necessary amount of
opposite direction rotation to loosen the adhesion.  Try this only after
you have done steps #2 and #3 first, and remembering to use the
principle mentioned in step #1, i.e. make certain all the connections
are in a straight line.

5. If the problem is in the keel extension bar.  This is also an area
that gets stuck but seems less problematic.  This counter-intuitive
because the keelbar is most definitely sitting in bilge water and sand
more often than the chine bars.  There is so much length to the keelbar
as opposed to the relatively shorter chine slider that you do have more
of a chance to get a grip here for twisting and forcing the device
open.  Basically follow all the steps above, especially the banging with
a hammer and aluminum sacrificial plate.

Other Remedies
I have heard of a case where a blowtorch was used to sweat the tubes
and expand them enough to start rotating them, etc.  This, however, has
worked with the K-1 which has a different grade and thickness of
aluminum from that in the K-Light.  So it most likely won't work without
doing damage.  And in any case when using such a radical device as a
blowtorch you have to take all sorts of precautions to protect the skin.

If none of the steps above work, then it is time for surgery.  In order
to reduce the chance of damaging the skin it is best to just make one
cut in the stuck area.  There are different arguments on which tube to
cut.  But it seems that the best option would be to cut on the tube end
against whose rivet stopper the slider is abutting.  Cut just behind
that rivet stopper.  Once the frame half has been removed from the boat,
you could work on the end still holding the slider using a vise and
workbench; with greater leverage you may be able to loosen it.  This
would mean you only have to replace the end that was cut.

By the way, if you have several stuck stringers, don't set out to cut
at them all at once.  Getting one stringer free by cutting may loosen up
the frame enough that another frozen area may be loosened using the less
radical steps covered earlier.




Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:49:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Gutierrez
Subject: [Paddlewise] Foldable again!!!!

Hey there fellow paddlers!!
                          I just want to let you all
know that I was able to un-stick the two sections of
my K-1 today with the help of two vise grips and a
great deal of lubricant.  I can't even begin to tell
you how happy I am!  I want to thank all of you that
sent me your suggestions for how to take care of the
problem.  Times like these make me very thankful that
I am a member of PaddleWise because I know that I can
draw on all of the experience that you all have to
offer.
            Anyway, I will be back in the States in
two weeks now with my wonderful kayak paddling in new
waters. Take care and thanks again,
Dave




From: "Robert Woodard"
Subject: [Paddlewise] K1 assembly
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:36:18 -0500

Hi,

Does anyone have any tips on getting the frame centered inside the hull of a
Feathercraft K1 during assembly? I end up spending a good deal of time
fidgeting with trying to get the keel bar and deck bar centered on the
fabric, only to have it nowhere close when I do the final spreading of the
bars in the cockpit. This results in having to loosen the bars again and
fidget for another 10-15+ minutes trying to get it centered again.

The entire boat goes together effortlessly except for this one issue, which
I'm spending a good 20+ minutes on in construction time. Any tips/tricks
from the expert folder community is most appreciated!

TIA,

Woody




From: "ralph diaz"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] K1 assembly
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:39:06 -0500

I believe what you are saying is that the frame halves go in okay, i.e.
well-centered when just the halves are finally in.  But that in the process
of extending the keel and side bars, the frame twists inside the hull to an
off center position. If this is not the case, skip the next few paragraphs
and go to one that starts with the words COME HERE.

A couple of thoughts, one quite unorthodox:

1. I believe there are velcro ties to tie down the frame at the keel; they
are located out of sight about 18 inches or so underdeck; this is in
addition to a velcro tie dead center in the cockpit.  I can't remember if
that is true of the K-1 but it is of the Kahuna and K-Light.  Have you
closed those velcro loops to hold the frame halves in position?

2. Have you tried to do the extension in the pattern suggested by
Feathercraft ( I think it is first extend the keel then the gunwales, then
the chines) i.e. don't do all the extensions on the port or starboard sides
all at once.  If you have done the sequence as suggested by Feathercraft,
try doing the sequence in another order say extend keel, then chines, then
gunwales.  Often when people are having trouble with a specific boat, if
they switch the assembly sequence it can help.

Now to my unorthodox suggestion:  when the frame halves are in the boat,
partly inflate the sponsons.  The idea is to tighten the skin enough to keep
the frame halves from twisting when you do the extensions.  Inflating the
sponsons may hinder extension some, so do it in some increments starting say
from half inflated sponsons to less inflated sponsons.  This may help.  I
have never tried this suggestion but I have not had that twisting problem.

COME HERE.  If you are having problems getting the frame halves to go in
straight as you shove each one in, you may want to try the motion in which
one uses a handsaw, i.e. go in and out a few inches at a time.  Some models
of folding kayaks absolutely demand that you put the frame halves in this
way, most specifically the Nautiraids as they have external sponsons and the
fit of frame to skin is tighter than on an internal sponsoned folding kayak.

Also if this is the case (that frame halves are not going in straight) you
may want to do it from the other side of the boat, i.e. switch your position
from starboard to port or vice versa.  People definitely have different
strength in their right and left arm as well as different finesse and touch
with each arm.  Normally it shouldn't matter but in some case it can
especially with stronger individuals.  Try with your weaker arm.

Oh, one last thought: when you shove the frame halves in are they really all
the way in, i.e. can you feel that the frame is fully inserted into both
ends.  You may want to assure yourself of this not only by feeling the skin
at the bow and stern but also by getting into the cockpit and pushing the
frame halves further in with your feet.  This was once a necessity with the
older hulls with cordura decks that shrunk (worked also on the Feathercraft
Klondike double).  The fuller the frame halves are in, the less tendency for
the frame to twist as you do the extending.

best,

ralph diaz




From: "David W. Quist"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Fw: K1 assembly
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:08:35 -0500

Ralph, as always, struck again.  The sponson thing is something I'll have to
try, although the shifting problem has settled down over time.  At most, it
shifts less than an inch off-center of the keel strips, instead of at the
edge (or off) as it seemed to do earlier.  Also, I notice that cartopping
doesn't exactly help in keeping everything aligned.

Bob - is your boat new?  The shifting seemed to be less of a problem towards
the end of the first season.  It was a wicked problem the first several
times I assembled it, though.

Here's a question of my own - any great tricks for re-aligning one of the
spring buttons?  Fortunately, it's just one of the five buttons holding the
crossrib in place, but still.  I'm starting to think about some way of
looping dental floss around it, but....




From: "Robert Woodard"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] K1 assembly
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:07:17 -0500

> Ralph, as always, struck again.  The sponson thing is something
> I'll have to try, although the shifting problem has settled down
> over time.

This is good to know, and it is a new boat.

So far, if I get the keel lined up, it seems the deck bar isn't. And if I
get the deck bar lined up... A whole lot of time spent getting this right,
as I know until the skin gets it's final shape getting it lined up is very
important.

I may play with the tension order of the extension bars as Ralph suggested.
I've been doing it according to the video, but a slight variation might
help.

> the end of the first season.  It was a wicked problem the first several
> times I assembled it, though.

So far it is a wicked problem. But I've only assembled it 3 times so far.
I'll keep plugging at it.

Thanks for the help!

Woody




From: HTERVORT@
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 04:46:56 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] K1 assembly

Woody,

Ralph and David both had some very good suggestions.

Since it is a new boat, I'm not at all surprised you're having trouble.  The
new welded skins are very slippery, so I have had the same problem with all
models with urethane skins -- much more than the older fabrics.  But only
when the boat is new.  The good news is that they are much easier to assemble
than the older boats once the skin gets some shape to it.

I find that carefully twisting the frame sections into alignment and then
sitting in the skin while pushing with the feet helps a lot.  Balanced foot
work is the secret.  You must do both ends and then recheck alignment before
and in-between each bar expansion for the first few assemblies.

The real helper is to leave the boat assembled with the sponsons fully
inflated for a week or so after making certain the boat is aligned properly.  
The ends of the skin will take a set and become more self-aligning after a
while.  It probably helps to leave the boat in a warm place during this time.

Another thing -- when inflating the sponsons, start with one big breath in
one side, two in the other, three in the first, then back and forth, trying
not to get one side ahead of the other.  Check alignment during this process
and, if the skin is off center, blow one side up more than the other to use
the pressure of the sponson to pull the skin back on-center.

Good luck and congrats on the new K1.

Harold
Khats pilot




From: "Robert Woodard"
Subject: [Paddlewise] K1 Assembly revisited
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:11:28 -0500

First, thanks to all the suggestions on getting my K1 skin lined up with the
frame. Here's what worked for me:

I decided rather than go for time, I'd take it easy and try and understand
why the frame was not lining up on the skin. Harold suggested I place the
frame in the skin, and then sit in cockpit and evenly push the frame into
the ends with my feet.

What I did was to *loosely* insert the frame to get the Velcro keel tabs
just past the second and fifth crossribs. I then fastened the Velcro tightly
around the keel ensuring this portion would stay in the center. Next I sat
in the cockpit and pushed against the # 2&5 crossribs until the frame was
entirely in the end. As I'm pushing with my feet I leaned back slightly and
had an excellent view of the deck bar and keel bar and very easily kept them
centered on the skin as the frame moved towards the ends.

Put the expansion bars in per the video and screwed up a few other minor
steps that cost me some time but I still got the boat from bag to the top of
my truck in 45 minutes. 15 minutes below my best time so far and this is
only my 4th assembly. Without the screw ups (forgot to put in the seat sling
and got the rudder cable caught between the crossribs and the skin) I'm sure
I can shave off another 5 minutes.

Thanks again for the help!

Woody


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旧帖 2020-10-09 00:18:43
Post #39
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 A big thanks goes to Reinhold Weber for organizing this PaddleWise Discussion on Khatsalano S and Expedition K1 for its inclusion on this web page.

Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:07:58 +0100
From: Merijn Wijnen
Subject: [Paddlewise] folders tried

Hi all,

In my search for a foldable I tried two Feathercrafts yesterday, a
Khatsalano S, and the old model of the K1 (both without rudder).
Yet paddling them  did not make the decision much easier. Trial
was only possible on a large flat water pond, so I got no information
on the behaviour in waves. My first impressions:

K1:
Wow, this is a huge machine. Lots of volume, enough for all gear
you could possibly imagine. Acces through deck hatches is
adequate, only the rear hatch is positioned quite far forward, so
some stuff might get lost where you can't reach it. Not a light boat,
probably over 25 kg. Assembly is quite complicated, with the
welded central assy.

On the water:
Plenty of stability, both initial and final. Im am long (6'5"wink and
skinny, and missed some contact with the boat. Bracing yourself
with knees / thighs is not very easy, and due to the high coaming
the ockpit feels very wide. I did not have a very direct feeling of the
boat. Acceleration and speed are good, better than I would imagine
from a boat this size. Cornering is a joy, even with the lose cockpit.
Lean steering is effortless, telemarking very effective.

Khatsalano S:
This is a real seakayak. Much less internal volume, but I think
(hope?) it should be enough for most trips. The bow volume can be
reached through a deck hatch, but the longerons a much in the
way. Rear volume is good accesible. The boat is quite light. The
boat is quite low, and I have some problems getting my large feet
(size 12.5-13) at the right positions. (This is a problem I do have
with more boats: a Skerray does not fit only due to this reason,
and even in a Sea Lion I have a hard job getting my feet in place.
Does anybody have this problem also?)
On the water:
The first few strokes the boat feels much more tippy than  the K1.
However,  you get used to it quite quickly. The final stability is
quite good. The cockpit has a snug fit, and bracing is effective due
to the extra stiffening bars. This gives a good feel of control.
Cornering is less easy than with the K1, but still easy enough.
Telemarking is less effective than in the K1, but that is partially due
the the lower stability: more experience is required to get the
feeling how far the bout can be put on its side. Remarkable is the
effortless glide. It feels a lot faster than the K1.

And now the problem of choice:
What I like in the old model K1:
-internal volume
-accessebility of the forward volume
-manouverability
-stability

What I don't like in the old model K1:
- huge cockpit with limited bracing
-heavy


What I like in the Khat S:
-snug fit, lots of feeling
-fast
-light

What I don't like in the Khat S:
-just enough space for my feet
-Limited internal volume, and limited acces to the forward volume

So now the problem of choice:
Both boats are fine in their own way. Both boats are now available
at a reduced price (25% off new), so that is a good deal. My most
important doubts are:
Weight: I plan to take the boat on a plane, so weight is
consideration. The 5 kg weight difference can cost some money on
the plane.
Volume: Is the internal volume of the Khat S enough for most
camping trips? (I take a tent, cooker, personal stuff, water for some
days)
Stability: on flat water the difference in stability was not important,
however, at sea this might be different. The nearest dealer where I
cab try the boat at sea is in Germany, 400 miles away, so it is
difficult for me to try the boats there.
Cockpit fit:
I love the snug fit and good bracing in the Khat S. Is it possible add
bracing-stuff to the K1 to get a better cockpit feeling? And how is
the new K1 compared with the old K1 on this point?
For the K1:
The old model K1 has some disadvantages. I know the German
dealer has a used K1 model 98 for sale, it is a bit mor expensive
than the old model. Is the difference worth the money?

Questions, questions. Please help me out with some real world
experiences.

Greetings,
Merijn Wijnen




Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:16:34 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The best defense.....More "S" topics

LedJube@... wrote:
>
> Obviously addressed to the Gentleman for NY with a nod to the gentleman from
> BC:
>
>     How appropriate is the Khatsano or KhatsanoS for those of us that prefer
> high performance (narrow and lively) and high energy paddles?  Is there a
> better folder for this kind of paddling?  I love the idea of a folder,
> dislike the thought of the cost but want another boat to play in.  There will
> be no fishing/photography/gunkholeing for me.  I want a folder for fast-paced
> day trips in well-featured conditions, Greenland skills practice and the like.

The Khatsalano in either of its forms (1. Plain has smallish sponsons
that you elect to inflate or not inflate, beam is 22 inches if I recall
2. the S version has bigger sponsons that you have to have inflated)
would work well for Greenlandic style paddling etc.  But they are
expensive; around $4K but you can find them used at around $3K, 2 or 3
years old.  Since the company has revolutionized its hull and deck
material and the way they are mated, prices on used Feathercrafts are
likely to soften a bit more.

I am okay in the Khatsalano S but prefer more stability yet; so in that
end of the Feathercraft family, I prefer the K-1 especially now that
they have lengthened it a half a foot and given it a sharp upswept bow
akin to that of the Khatsalano.  The Khatsalanos in general are a lot of
boat that requires the skills of Doug and kindred souls to get the most
out of.  I have run across several individuals who bought an Khats
hoping to be faster and better paddlers but wound up have to add ballast
and/or not feel comfortable in rough waters.

It really is like anything in kayaking regardless of whether soft sided
or hard sided: some boats require more skill level and they won't
necessarily make you a better paddler.  You have to make yourself a
better paddler or be one to start with.  I think a lot of people who eye
the Khats would be better off in the K-1.  The difference in top speed
between the two models is something in the order of 5 per cent.  Both
can be rolled.  The K-1 will assemble quicker than the Khats which has
more frame members including a secondary buttress frame to deal with its
extra length and narrowness.

As for other foldables that would meet the requirement you have, it is
too bad we weren't talking about this 70 years ago.  A number of the
folding kayak companies were making very impressive Greenland style
kayaks back then.  You should see the sweet one that Hans Edi Pawlata
(of Pawlata roll fame) was using in the late 20s.  Very long and narrow
kayaks with minute cockpits and adjustable bracing devices within for
good purchase/boatcontact for your knees and hips.  Or even 15 years ago
when Nautiraid was making a 16 ft by 19 inch Greenlander and weighing
around 34 pounds.  Most people couldn't paddle it and so the company
then took it to 23.5 beam; now the current Greenlander, which has a 27
inch beam, is Greenlander only in name.  A fellow offered one of the
original Nautiraid 19 inch beam Greenlanders on rec.boats.paddle in the
summer of 1999; I don't know whatever happened to it.

ralph diaz





Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 9:33 PM
From:  Wendy
Subject: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

I apologize if this thread has been visited as I realize there's a lot of
info on folding boats and this is a very long e-mail.

I'm planning to buy a folding boat to complement my hardshell.  I'm just not
sure what would be the best model to buy as trying out a boat will most
likely be impossible since most of these boats would be special ordered in
my area and unfortunately I don't know anyone with these particular models
of folding boats.  One decision I've made is that I would like to get a
Feathercraft, now just what model, although I think right now I'm leaning
toward the Khatsalano S.  I've got the literature from Feathercraft and also
Ralph's book.

I'll give you a bit of history of my experience and boat use as that will
make a difference.

Experience:

- have paddled sprint racing flatwater kayaks & canoes, so balance is pretty
good.  I'm not sure what the kayak beam is across but probably 18 inches or
less, rounded hull.  Have paddled about 10-15 years.
- currently paddle a Current Designs GTS, 22 inches.  Unfortunately, bought
the high volume and is a bit too big for me and haven't bothered to
customize it yet, so not the best feel for the boat.  I usually sit on a
thermarest seat cushion so I can be higher up.
- previously owned a Current Designs SS, 22 inches, smaller fitting boat,
fit like a glove and it was nice to play around with -- but I sold it so I
could get more storage
- roll, I'd say is kind of non-existent since I haven't bothered to try with
the GTS since I'm moving around too much in the boat.  With the SS, could
roll but not bomb proof.  I've never put much effort in rolling since I
don't think it's that important -- if it looks like I can't handle it, I
don't bother going out.  I do know how to do self-rescues, etc.  Could
probably pick up the roll if I really wanted to, although maybe not
bombproof.
- paddle mostly around the Great Lakes, Georgian Bay area, so really not
used to ocean paddling, tides, currents, etc., but have paddled many times
on the east & west coast, Mexico and other places on vacation

Classification of experience:  I don't know, maybe intermediate???  I guess
good bracing -- more or less second nature because of the sprint kayaks.  I
don't really think that much if I'm going to perform a high or low brace,
just do it naturally as the need arises.

Paddle style:  more vertical stroke.  Usually use a paddle about 215 but
sometimes will use my scoop paddle which is even shorter.  I would probably
end up buying a four-piece paddle at 220, though, so I can stuff it in the
backpack.


Uses for the Folding boat:
- plan to take it on vacation with me.  Would probably use my hardshell when
I'm at home, and take the folding when it's more convenient or as an extra
for someone else to paddle -- whichever boat they feel more comfortable
with.
- would like to do trips of two weeks in length, possibly more -- and this
would include the arctic
- I tend to like to take the kitchen sink, but am a very efficient packer,
although I can skimp if I have to
- would probably have a deck bag on top, and large camera case on back,
extra paddles, whatever, if I was on an expedition so that may prevent
rolling if I did develop a half decent roll anyway
- usually would paddle with someone else, but occasionally on my own, likely
daytrips in that case
- not really interested in going out in big surf
- I definitely would like to feel comfortable, not having to worry if I'm
going to dump in freezing cold water (I do have a drysuit, but still would
like to stay on top).  Paddling in cold water is something I'd be in more
than not so I need to have a certain comfort level.

Choices:

Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable
cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to
medium build.  25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might
swim in it.

Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced???

Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic
kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least
someone else so we're sharing some of the gear.  Right amount of stability
that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands
in the boat!

Your thoughts are appreciated.

thanks.


wendy



Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:43:56 -0500
From: Vince Dalrymple
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

Don't even think about buying the Khats S.  It'll feel like driving a
bus (other than the speed).  I personally feel the Khats S was designed
for folks who shouldn't be in a skinny boat to begin with, overly
relying on the sponsons to keep them from tipping over, but in a boat
that with sponsons inflated would be a difficult boat to roll back up.
How many Khatsalanos do you see come up for resale compared to the high
number of Khats Ss?  Food for thought.

Even the Khats (standard) will feel big in terms of boat fit and overly
stable for you (without the sponsons inflated).  At 5'3", you'll find
the rear deck very high for layback rolls (for when you do decide to
work on skill building).

I personally feel Doug Simpson, head of F-craft should try his hand at a
Khatsalano Sport model with about a 20~21" beam and lower deck for
easier layback.  Pick up some of the lost volume by adding another half
foot or so in length - maybe split the bow float bag to fit around the
bow keel frame to add more bow volume.  But keep it designed from the
outset for paddlers in the 120~170 lb. range.  I have too many friends in
that weight range interested in my Khats but who feel the boat is on the
large side for them.  Any PaddleWisers want to add their two cents to
this - or challenge it?  I might forward the results on to Doug.

You should be able to get one (maybe two) two piece paddle(s) at the
216~218 cm length inside the backpack (which comes w/ blade pockets on
the sides - outside).

No real need to pick up a new paddle with less blade area and more
joints just to travel with your boat.  F-craft also sells a larger,
looser soft case which is supposed to be better for airline travel (my
backpack-& Khats in it-took a real beating).

Having a hardshell in addition to your Khats will work out well in order
to break the boat down for maintenance regularly w/o putting a crimp in
your regular/local paddling plans.

> - would like to do trips of two weeks in length, possibly more -- and this
> would include the arctic
> - I tend to like to take the kitchen sink, but am a very efficient packer,
> although I can skimp if I have to
> - would probably have a deck bag on top, and large camera case on back,
> extra paddles, whatever, if I was on an expedition so that may prevent
> rolling if I did develop a half decent roll anyway

Not necessarily. Start out rolling with the local whitewater group and
work on & offside proficiency in a basic C2C roll and you should be in
good standing for expeditioning.  Aim to eventually Reenter & Roll.

Word of advice; breaking surf will quickly strip years off your Khats -
it certainly has mine.  On the upside, the standard Khats is one
beautiful craft to paddle in big conditions (storm paddling) and will
survive some amount of surf abuse if you do get stuck on the outside
with dark approaching.

Unless you paddle a Klepper, you may eventually end up in the water.
Learn to roll.

> Choices:
>
> Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable
> cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to
> medium build.  25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might
> swim in it.

You will swim in it, but if you reeally want the added stability, then
keep the K1 in mind.  It definitely has the cargo space for your kitchen
sink!

> Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced???

Best boat for you.  Not at all advanced for you.  Will be the most fun -
day in, day out.  Good camping ability with 1~2 week capability.  Just
learn to roll, please.

> Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic
> kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least
> someone else so we're sharing some of the gear.  Right amount of stability
> that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands
> in the boat!

Good stable platform for stand up photography.

Feel free to contact me with questions regarding my Khats and its
set-up, etc.

Vince



Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:27:19 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

As you can see from Vince's answer, there are paddlers and there are
paddlers.  Vince is a more skilled one and will look at the varying
forms of the Khats in a different way then someone coming from the other
side might.

A few of my own comments:

Vince Dalrymple wrote:

> Don't even think about buying the Khats S.  It'll feel like driving a
> bus (other than the speed).  I personally feel the Khats S was designed
> for folks who shouldn't be in a skinny boat to begin with, overly
> relying on the sponsons to keep them from tipping over, but in a boat
> that with sponsons inflated would be a difficult boat to roll back up.
> How many Khatsalanos do you see come up for resale compared to the high
> number of Khats Ss?  Food for thought.

Given your background, Vince is absolutely right.  If you have the
balancing skills to go in a skinny boat, then by all means go for the
skinnier version of the Khats.  I would agree with Vince only in part.
_Both_ versions, the standard (in which you can elect to inflate or not
inflate the smallish built-in sponsons, is in itself a compromise boat
that was redesigned up from the non-sponsoned version because paddlers
seem to want something very skinny but couldn't handle it) and the
Khats-S in which you must use the sponsons all the time (these are
medium sized), are meant to give a measure of training wheels to a
skinny boat.  One is just more training wheels than the other.  As for
who has a right to be in a skinny boat, I don't see how anyone should be
denied going skinny or seemingly skinny.  A boat like the Khats-S
actually bridges a lot of worlds quite nicely.  It is not a barge or
bus.

As for the numbers of Khats Standard vs. Khat-S's for resale, the
numbers reflect to some degree the number of sales of one versus the
other.  But it is true that some paddlers who bought the Khats-S as an
excursion into the realm of skinny, found that it wasn't to their liking
nor did it make them better paddlers.  Something akin to this happened
in the late 1980s when many a paddler was conned into buying a Nordkapp
as a boat to grow into and it did not turn out to be that easy.  The
glut of used Nordkapps on the market was astounding but a blessing to
good paddlers who could get used ones for a song from sellers desperate
to get rid of them.  I know of one determined paddler here who went out
some 50 times with his Nordkapp until he finally felt one with it and
confident and comfortable.  In the Khats-S I have known people who
really wanted it no matter what and opted eventually to put in ballast
for the security it gave them.

> Even the Khats (standard) will feel big in terms of boat fit and overly
> stable for you (without the sponsons inflated).  At 5'3", you'll find
> the rear deck very high for layback rolls (for when you do decide to
> work on skill building).

The trouble in the Khats is not so much the high rear deck but rather
the high seatback.  It is relatively easy to resolve this...cut down the
plastic board used for back support within the seatback cushion.  It is
something I am recommending this fix in my next issue for those who want
to roll any of the Feathercrafts with a sweep, layback roll.

> I personally feel Doug Simpson, head of F-craft should try his hand at a
> Khatsalano Sport model with about a 20~21" beam and lower deck for
> easier layback.  Pick up some of the lost volume by adding another half
> foot or so in length - maybe split the bow float bag to fit around the
> bow keel frame to add more bow volume.  But keep it designed from the
> outset for paddlers in the 120~170 lb. range.  I have too many friends
> in that weight range interested in my Khats but who feel the boat is on
> the large side for them.  Any PaddleWisers want to add their two cents
> to this - or challenge it?  I might forward the results on to Doug.

If you are forwarding requests to Doug ask him for me and a lot of
others to make a longer version of the K-Light.  The world is waiting
for a 15 foot K-Light.  It would blow the socks over any other
conventional folding single.  Adding two feet would still give us a 40
pound nice single for the way most of us paddle, i.e. not like Doug
(...Lloyd not Simpson) or Vince, the hurricane chasers respectively (and
respected) of the West and East Coasts :-)

Incidentally, at your weight and need for stability, you may want to opt
for the K-Light even at its present 13 foot length.  It is a speedy
enough boat, very agile and sporty feeling and accelerates well.
Sometimes smaller paddlers actually can do better in a smaller boat than
a longer boat.  At least give it a try.

ralph
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From: "Andy Johnson"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:21:31 -0800

Wendy,

I'm no expert but I have paddled both of these boats and own a 99 K1. I'm
just 4 inches taller than you and it fits me fine. It sounds to me like you
are a dry paddler on the whole, as am I. The Khatsalano is more the wet
paddler's boat. It sits lower in the water and you tend to get a good deal
wetter. It probably rolls easier that the K1 but I couldn't say. They are
both fast. If you are serious about being 2 weeks out and potentially in the
arctic it seems to me the K1 is the boat for you. If you go with the
Khatsalano I'd really recommend the S. I think you'd survive long days on
the water much less fatigued. I went through the same drill before I decided
and it took me nearly a year. Don't waste that kind of time. Get one of them
and start enjoying it.

Andy

C. Anderson Johnson



Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:09:49 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

Vince Dalrymple wrote:
> > Not so much the stability, Ralph, as getting used to a v-bottom hard
> > chine design.
> > Ken Fink "tested" me in the original Khats (and expected a quick
> > capsize, I think), and the trick was to not fight for a vertical rest
> > position, but to just let the craft settle over on a chine 'til getting
> > under way.

I have found that all of the Khats that I have tried out do that, the
prototype (then called the Kitsalano, which is the name of a section of
Vancouver named after a chieftain, Khatsalano), the plain Khats and the
Khats with the largest sponsons.  I found it absolutely disconcerting in
the Kits prototype and actually climbed out and got into a hardshell
rather than paddle it.  After 15 minutes, even the factory guy who was
in the Kits decided we should turn back from the rough conditions we
were beginning to enter.  The Khats family likes to fall over on to a
chine when you stop; in which direction depends on your skeletonal
structure I guess.  I bet a chiropractor could use having people sit in
a Khats to determine the natural alignment of their spine :-)

I have not attempted to roll a Khats but my understanding is that for
marginal rollers (Vince, I am not implying that you are :-)) it is a
more difficult boat to roll than would seem evident by its sleek look.
My understanding also from Ken Fink is that you need to not rush the
roll in a foldable; he feels foldables move slower through their
rotation in a roll and you need to avoid getting out ahead of yourself.
Let the boat come around and it will.

The K-Light is a delight to paddle, a nice mix of tracking and turning.
I don't find it weathercocks.

> > Something I forgot to address in the last e-mail to Wendy (and list) is
> > the ease with which the K1 and esp. the K-Light set up due to their
> > simplicity, especially when compared to the Khatsalano, a boat which
> > wears me out just putting together (which explains it being on my car
> > rather than in it).

Amen.  The Khats takes a lot of assembly.  Just when you think you are
finished, you need to do the secondary or upper buttressing frame
insertions and connections.  The K-Light is fairly easy, although some
individual ones take somewhat more,  and the K-1 is vastly improved in
assembly time since the major revisions to that model in 1998.  The K-1
is usually the better choice for most paddlers than the Khats although
people do like and want to be associated with the looks of the latter.
I have talked several paddlers out of opting for the Khats and instead
go for the K-1.  They thank me every time we meet.

ralph diaz
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
旧帖 2020-10-09 00:20:03
Post #40
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 From: "cholst"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Folding kayak rescues
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:25:59 GMT

As a trip leader, I would like advice on how to integrate folding kayaks
with hardshells on group trips -- techniques, rescues, things to look out
for, etc. Our club, Inland Sea Kayakers (http://www.isk.canoe-kayak.org),
has a policy that anyone who wants to go on an open water trip, such as on
Lake Superior, must demonstrate beforehand that he or she can do both a solo
rescue and assisted rescues, preferably both as a rescuer and a rescuee. Not
being familiar with the various foldables, I don't know what to ask of
potential trip members with foldables in the way of rescue techniques,
particularly in the matter of boat-to-boat rescues (soft shell rescuing a
hard shell and vice-versa). Normal kayak instruction covers only hardshell
rescues. So far we have a Klepper Aerius and a short Folbot in the club. The
Klepper is frequently paddled solo, the Folbot always is. I don't think
either owner has ever had any instruction in rescue techniques specific to
their boats, though both are willing and eager to learn.

Chuck Holst



From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:36:44 EDT
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folding kayak rescues

Chuck,

If the Aerius to which you refer is a double (Aerius II), then very little
technique is required in most rescue situations (but practice is, of course,
no less than prudent in any case!!):

a) the boat is unlikely to capsize in the first place

b) a swimmer will have little trouble in just climbing back in over the side --
   in really terrible conditions climbing back in over the bow or stern (beware
   of rudder, if fitted) may be more appropriate, for one thing because it'll
   turn the boat into the wind / waves

c) a self rescue in a double folder like the Aerius II is a cinch if there is
   already a crew of two, one paddler steadies while the other climbs in; if
   the boat is paddled solo, then a steadying hand by another paddler might be
   nice

From your description below, the Folbot in question is a single. Most Folbot
models are particularly stable and again very little assistance should be
required for a reentry.

In both cases bailing the boat out is easy due to the relatively large open
cockpit and stability of the hull shape.

Most important:

Make sure that there is sufficient floatation in the boats since there are no
bulkheads. It is good practice to fill as much of the boat as possible if
conditions are so severe that even a folding boat is at all likely to capsize.
The full length sponsons on most folding boats are a good start, but it is
important to reduce the area of free water surface sloshing around in the wide
open spaces of the hull to increase stability of a partially flooded boat in
waves.

(My only involuntary capsize in a folder in 30 years occurred in surf in a
double when we did not heed my own advice about floatation AND did not bother
to pump the bilges, which were partially filled from the trip out: Water pooled
in the bow and "downslope" side of the boat in a breaker and the ensuing broach
became uncontrollable.)

Draining other boats by dragging them over the deck of a folder is the only
thing that I can think of that would have to be approached with some forethought
and care: Drain the boat as much as possible before dragging it out of the water
and try to position the second boat in such a way that it rests over a frame
(sometimes termed rib or cross-frame) to avoid excessive loads on the central
deck stringer.

Folders are ideal rescue vehicles to assist other kayaks due to their stability.

There are exceptions to the above: Feathercraft Khatsalanos behave and perform
very much like most so-called hard shell seakayaks and then the same rules apply
as for the latter, of course.

Chuck, I would suggest that you put in a (VERY) wet mixed practice session with
the folders and the hard shells and just play through different scenarios. Post
pictures!!

:-)))

The joining of forces of folders and non-folders sounds like a great set-up and
is a recipe for fun and safe trips.

Best regards,
Ralph

Ralph C. Hoehn



Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:35:25 +1000
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Folding Kayak Rescues

I reply:

As a Klepper paddler who regularly and almost exclusively keeps company
with the hardshell brigade I would suggest the following points:

# A folding kayaker can rescue herself/himself as efficiently as a
hardshell operator who presumably has a reliable roll.  This only occurs if
the folding kayaker regularly practices self rescue techniques.  If they
are not willing to demonstrate this, I would not paddle with them.

#  This is because  the inherent stability of the folding kayaks you
mention, means their paddlers may NOT regularly practice self rescue.

#  A reasonably skilled folding kayaker can be an asset on a trip.
Her/his kayak makes a relatively stable platform on which to base assisted
rescues. If you run to a buddy system in your club on the water,  it would
pay to have the foldable/hardshell buddies practice assisted rescues.  Their
boats can have quite disparate behavior upside down, and/or partially
waterlogged.

# Amen to the advice on reducing volume, either with gear, or floatation
bags.

# You seem to indicate a double Klepper is paddled solo.  That's a lot
of kayak to manoeuvre in a blow,  even for a strong paddler.  I would be
reluctant as a trip leader to let that one through.  

# If the foldables don't carry electric pumps, [ actually even if they
do!] I would personally check on the bail-out equipment of the foldables.
Remember, even if they carry floatation bags and gear, these kayaks  can
still ship an awful lot of water without a seasock.

# I would be checking on what sort of spraydeck/skirt arrangement they
have, not only for seaworthiness, but also for protection from hypothermia.
Big open cockpits can result in cold kayakers,  particularly in cold rain.
[ In my neck of the woods,  sunburn to the legs is a worry.]

#  As far as group spread goes,  foldables are not necessarily the slow
coaches,  so in my club at least,  there are no on-the-water instructions
peculiar to folding kayakers.

#  If your foldables are going to be assembled at put-ins, it might be
helpful for group harmony to suggest their owners arrive early enough to
get their boat ready, especially on day trips.   Again, this depends on the
skill of the folding kayaker , ie, their assembly times.

# In the hands of folks who know their boats and skills, I believe
foldables have a significant degree of survivability.  I speak for the
Klepper, which I know.  I would describe this as 'built-in redundancy'.
The only caveat is big surf,  but I guess you get short, steep, breaking
and dumping seas where you are.

Hopes this helps!

Peter Rattenbury, Wollongong, Australia.




Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 13:00:47 +1000
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Foldable Rescues

Hi Ralph H :

I have no particular 'downunder' techniques at self rescue.  My practice
is invariably the 'cowboy' rescue.   I like its simplicity!  No fussing
with paddlefloat or stirrup set ups.  The boat flips upright  easily, even
unloaded. I can be back in the boat literally in seconds [ with a little
boost of adrenalin!] I am 56 years old,  by the way, no spring chicken,
but with a healthy respect for the sea which comes from 45 years plus
mucking about in various boats.
  The key is to practice in varying weather and sea conditions and with
varying loads.  In a decent sort of sea, which presumably capsizes you in
the first place, the boat is quite a different beast, as you know!
In these realistic  conditions,  the Klepper is usually half swamped,
with seas washing into the boat.  Sprayskirt on,  electric pump on, both hands
engaged in paddling into the sea.   I have a 800gph pump which provides the
capacity needed for a large volume boat.  I carry a one gallon collapsible
bucket, and the standard vertically operated handpump as backup.
I spoke about inbuilt redundancy before.  I also practice paddling the
boat totally swamped.  This is, the Klepper is manageable [except in surf]
fully 'waterlogged', which has earned it U-boat status in my club!  This
implies integrity of sponsons [ the ones that come with the boat!] and
floatation bags.   This is a fun thing to do, unless it is freezing! and
you learn what it is like to paddle a boat with about six hundred pounds of
water moving along with you!  Interestingly, I have found the Klepper to be
as stable UPSIDE down, as right side up!  Again, useful knowledge in
survival.   May be other boats have similar characteristics.
There is a helluva difference between practising rescue techniques, be
they a roll up, re-enter and roll, or cowboy , in a decent sort of sea
state, and  in the swimming pool like conditions I see lots of folks do.  I
also carry  surf fins, in the  event of having to swim the boat in through
surf,  and I tether myself to the boat when paddling and/or sailing solo.
So dominant is hardshell technique that in my club at least, one is NOT
qualified as a sea going kayaker unless one can demonstrate a reliable
roll.  This implies a boat of Inuit heritage, ie  designed to roll.   I
just like the idea of SURVIVING,  I don't care how!
Just a quick word on group rescue.  The flavor of the month here is for
the rescuer to help right the rescuee's boat;  have the rescuee hold on to
her/his boat near the cockpit,  rescuer manoevre's her/his boat alongside,
facing the rescuee, and the rescuee then uses the buoyancy/stability of
both boats to swing herself/himself back into her/his cockpit.
I do notice a strange reluctance among hardshell kayakers to engage in
realistic gelcoat-crunching  across the deck T rescues and the like!
Hope you find the above interesting. That's my two cents worth.  Regards
PeterR


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旧帖 2020-10-09 03:02:46
Post #41
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 I recently bought (for a good price) a K1 that no longer folds. I bought it sight unseen and was a bit shocked when I found the frame was much worse than I was lead to believe.Four of the 5 extension bars were seized.The rear deck bar was seized and after cutting the extension bars I found quite a few of the rear sections joins seized as well Replacing all the tubes would probably be over A$1000 so I had to try something else. These are the tricks I learned.

First I filled the boat with fresh water and left it for a week. I soaked some joints in Penetrene - a very thin penetrating lubricant - I soaked paper towel in this and then wrapped aluminum foil around this and left it for a few days-this did work to some degree but not on the extension sleeves. I cut out one of the extension tubes and tried quite a few things that failed. I boiled the joint for 2 hours, I used 2 pipe wrenches,I hammered it, twisted it, put a blow torch on it and cursed quite a bit. Nothing worked on the extension sleeves. Salt crystallizes in the joint and forms a strong bond with the aluminum - it is not really a corrosion situation. I soaked the tube in SaltX - a solvent for salt and while it cleans up the tubes well it did not release the joint

The bow technique worked best - place your knee on the joint and pull on the bar firmly like a hunting bow - this will open the joint a fraction. Tun it over and repeat about 20 times gradually working the joint open. Drip on a bit of Penetrene this worked on all but the sleeved joints but is not without a little risk - if you pull too hard the tube can fail or the sleeve insert can snap, Sometimes the sleeve insert comes loose but that at least frees the joint.

The damaged tubes are pretty easy to work with - you can cut and repair a tube with a sleeve made of the large diameter tube. The aluminum is easy to drill and rivet. You can buy plain tube from Feathercraft to make up the bits you need. this is what I did to fix the extension tubes. Overall the repairscost about $100.
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:27 pm

That guy has probably left it assembled for the whole season - or may be for a few years. This is what I always say - if you plan on using a folder as a hardshell, keeping it assembled in a garage, - then get a hardshell.
Make sure you'll lubricate them before assembling, - with Bo-Shield or similar bicycle lubricant. Preferably, - not petroleum based - to prevent possible skin damage. Dave here also gave a good advice recently - on long trips rotate tubes slightly, without dissembling the boat. Rotating extention tubes will be difficult due to pushbuttons, but some of them (probably, on side stringers) are less stressed than others, so you must be able to release the push-button, rotate back and forth, and then extend the tube again without any lever. Somebody suggested a "rotating tool for K1" - sawed-off screwdriver with 0.5" tip remaining; I don't need it on Kahuna, but K1 has more parts to deal with....
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ChrisH
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Post  by ChrisH » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:11 pm

I am sure the boat was put together with no lubricant at all and then left for over a year. I also have a K2 that we always lubricate well with Superlube and even when its been left for very prolonged periods it comes apart very easily.

I really wanted to point out that even in a very difficult case the tubes are pretty easy to repair if you or a friend has a drill press.

I found that if an extension tube has to be cut it is better to cut the large section. This section can then be separated from the other end by drilling out the rivets joining the two bits -you then only have to make up a new large sleeve which is pretty straight forward.

I know in future on a long trip I will take a short length of the larger tube and a few rivets.
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:39 pm

ChrisH wrote:
I know in future on a long trip I will take a short length of the larger tube and a few rivets.
Then you'll need a "rivet tool". And removing the rivet (if it hasn't fallen out) is not easy - you will need some sort of a pocket drill. May be, it is easier to take a short length of a tube that is larger than large tube, and another short tube larger than smaller tube, and few meters of wide Velcro, some fiberglass cloth, and fast-curing Epoxy. Fallen out rivets can be replaced with a short stainless screw of the same diameter, and then fixed with Veclro or Fibegrlass/epoxy, to keep it in place. Fiberglass and epoxy are very useful items - you can fix almost anything with it, - not only fallen out rivets, but also broken tubes. Regular household-grade epoxy in small tubes (mix ratio 1:1) is good enough for this purpose - it cures in 8 or 12 hours, but becomes hard enough in 2-3 hours. This cheap epoxy is easier to work with, than expensive fast-curing epoxy from marine stores, which will ruing your work if you don't do it fast enough.
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nohoval_turrets
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Post  by nohoval_turrets » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:26 am

Good tips Chris. I'm generally pretty careful about lubing and rinsing, but I've had a couple of seizing incidents.

Here's a technique I've used very successfully, but it only works if you can get the seized part out of the boat, which of course isn't always possible.

I use a couple of the table-top type vice grips, like these:

Image
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:06:17
Post #42
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04
I am planning to travel with my FC kahuna. I should be able to limit the bag weight to less than 50lb. But I am concerned if I may be charged for checking in a large bag. Have someone being charge for checking in FC bag?

I also heard that someone have their regid coaming broke during traveling. I know that I need to wrap my sprey skirt and my sea sock around coaming to protect it. Does anyone knows how easy or how hard it is to break the coaming?

Thanks
--KC
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Alm
Re: Traveling with FC kahuna
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Post  by Alm » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:25 am

>I am planning to travel with my FC kahuna. I should be able to limit the bag weight to less than 50lb. But I am concerned if I may be charged for checking in a large bag. Have someone being charge for checking in FC bag?

Oh, yeah. Not for size, - it is almost within the allowed limits even after I pack PFD, Thermarest and other bulky items inside, and can barely close zippers. But for weight, - yes. It was 100 lbs. There was also some food inside - for 2 weeks approximately.

Check your FC bag on bathroom scales with the boat , rudder, seasock, etc. Support it lightly from either side, not to cause much error, but enough to prevent from falling to the side, and in this state of unstabile equilibrium note the maximum weight. You'll be surprised to learn that it weighs about 50 lbs, - not 35 lbs quoted in the specs. FC people aren't lying, 35 lbs is a "stripped weight", - they just don't mention this or mention in too small print smile

>I also heard that someone have their regid coaming broke during traveling.

Didn't happen to me. It was too densely packed and too round in all the dimensions. Thermarest folded in half and wrapped around inside the bag. Some clothes in the lower end, down sleeping bag and PFD in the upper end. In a few days I've found some punctures in Thermarest, but not sure if it was due to sharp items in the bag, or cacti and mesquite thorns.

>I know that I need to wrap my sprey skirt and my sea sock around coaming to protect it.

This wouldn't be enough if somebody would dance on it ferociously or play a socker with it, - or, let's say, baggage handlers just would happen to be in a terrible mood this day. I've added more grab handles - one on another side, and one on the top end, to prompt baggage handlers to use some civilized approach rather than socker player's approach. Only one grab-handle from the factory is laughable; what is this, - a purse?

>Does anyone knows how easy or how hard it is to break the coaming?

I think it's hard.
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Post  by tsunamichuck » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:14 am

I have travelled pretty extensively with my Khats. Last time was in November/Dec to Upstate NY. The boat weighed in at 52 ibs packed, but I put the skirt, sock and float bags in another bag. The airlines did not charge me extra.It is real pain travelling with cold weather gear. I can keep the pack at 70ibs with all my gear in the backpack for international travel. Never had a problem with breakage and I witnessed the bag being abused by a baggage handler at LAX.
Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
Innova Safari
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Post  by chrstjrn » Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:55 pm

US airlines are the best about weight limits. European are the worst (Air France and Lufthanza should be boycotted outright). And Asian airlines are in between. At least, that's what we came up with on this forum 11 months ago, when I got back from being abused by Air France and started a thread.
Check the airlines' websites, and be very nice to the check-in agent.
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.
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Post  by Alm » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:15 pm

US airlines are all different. United Air has 2*70 lbs limt for international travel, and Alaska Air (another major carrier here on the West coast) has only 2*50 lbs limit. For domestic flights within the USA all of them have 2*50 lbs limit, I think (except for short commuter flights on small airplanes - and international flights on small planes normally have much less than 2*70 lbs allowance). But you should check Luggage Allowance sections at the website of prospective airline - they like to change their rules sometimes (making them worse for us).
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Southwest Airlines has a 3 50lbs bag limit
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Post  by tsunamichuck » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:41 pm

I flew between San Diego and Reno alot between Aug 03 and Jan 04. Never checked bags though but pretty decent airline.
Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
Innova Safari
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Feathercraft Java
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eguillermo
I did and didn't get charged by Alaska Airlines
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Post  by eguillermo » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:46 pm

when I went up with two boats in July -- an FC Kahuna and Aire inflatable.

I was able to keep the Aire bag just at 50, but as alm says, the Kahuna is pretty much 50 to begin with and I wanted to use the space in the bag. It got up around 70 pounds and they charged me 50 bucks in SF for overweight and extra.

But then on the way back I guess they were feeling kindly toward the poor guy with the big bags and just checked it through without a charge smile

I wrapped the frame inside the hull and cushioned the coaming all around with spray skirt, sea sock and other soft things. The only damage was a slightly bent rudder pedal -- how in the world they did it I don't know, but the screws themselves are slightly bent inside the pedal.
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kchan
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Post  by kchan » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:12 pm

I decided in last minute not to bring my FC Kahuna with me. Although my Kahuna is only 35lb, but with paddle, pfd, safety and cold water gear, I am surprised to find out that just the kayaking gear is already 60lb. I perfer travel light so it is just way too heavy. I may do this again but if I can find a rental close by (make sure they are touring kayak), I would use a rental kayak and bring my own paddle, pfd and safety gear along.
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Post  by chrstjrn » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:55 am

Reality is tough. I've planned to take my Puffin on business trips in the past, but if I don't have firm plans ahead of time I've never felt comfortable following through. It's too heavy, when all is said and done. Maybe one of these would work in a warm climate:
http://alpackaraft.com/site/Index.cfm
but I haven't gone in that direction.

Taking my boat(s) on a weekend or a vacation with the intention of paddling, on the other hand, has worked out very well. I often load all three of them in the van when we're heading out.
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.
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User avatarmaryinoxford
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Post  by maryinoxford » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:48 am

chrstjrn wrote:
Maybe one of these would work in a warm climate:
http://alpackaraft.com/site/Index.cfm
but I haven't gone in that direction.
All I know about pack rafts is from reading the websites, but the impression I have is that they depend on a current taking you where you want to go, with the paddle mainly for steering.
I suspect they'd be hard work to move over calm water, and virtually impossible against a current. Pity, because the super-light weight is a real plus.
Mary
Not in Oxford any more...
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kchan
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Post  by kchan » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:49 am

I actually thought of getting a Firstlight kayak because they are only 20lb. With pfd, paddles and other gear, it should be around 40lb, a more managable weight. But I like FC Kahuna because I am familiar with the assembly process and the performance is good. I was hoping to have a 70lb in total weight for my travel, which include 50lb + 20lb other gears. At the end, it is almost 85-90lb. It is nice to imagin to travel with your folding kayak but in reality, it is much more challenging than I expect.
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It really does not take that much imagination
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Post  by tsunamichuck » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:28 pm

Just a desire (and a strong back). Gear, especially cold weather gear is heavy. When I travel, I take a kayak with me. Never once regretted having a boat.
Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
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Innova Safari
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:50 pm

>All I know about pack rafts is from reading the websites, but the impression I have is that they depend on a current taking you where you want to go, with the paddle mainly for steering. I suspect they'd be hard work to move over calm water, and virtually impossible against a current. Pity, because the super-light weight is a real plus.

I think all rafts (not only these) are not intended for long flat water paddling, or paddling against current. They are either for whitewater downstream paddling (not this one in the link, perhaps), or for no paddling at all, - like liferafts, where main purpose is to keep crew afloat with *some* possibility of moving in desired direction. Good whitewater raft will weigh more than 4 lbs. Inflatable kayaks are one step further from rafts towards frame kayaks, still retaining some features of rafts (including minimal assembling time).

>I actually thought of getting a Firstlight kayak because they are only 20lb. With pfd, paddles and other gear, it should be around 40lb, a more managable weight. But I like FC Kahuna because I am familiar with the assembly process and the performance is good. I was hoping to have a 70lb in total weight for my travel, which include 50lb + 20lb other gears. At the end, it is almost 85-90lb.

If Firstlight weighs 20 lb according to specs, it means that it weighs at least 30 lb in reality. With PFD and one paddle (no spare paddle) and pump it will be 36 lb. Other gear may include a lot of different things and depending on 1) weather 2) price and 3) radial daytrips VS longer trip with overnight camps, - this additional weight may vary in a wide range, from 10 to 40 lb, so the total weight would be from 46 to 76 lb. Light 3/4 Thermarest weighs 1 lb, but full-length and thicker model will weigh 2-3 lb. Shelter may weigh from 2 lb (fly with poles or fly with hammock) to 7 lb (4-season tent), and so on. Light-weight gear often costs twice more than, say, 30% heavier and bulkier items.

With 50 lb Kahuna (it's 50 with rudder, backpack etc, not 35) your objective of 70 lb total weight is realistic with a light shelter, light Thermarest, light sleeping bag, very little of clothing - all this is possible in warm-weather trips. I had 75 lb with Kahuna on return flight from 75F (26C) day temps, 55F ( 12C) night temps trip (no food already). All the food you would have to buy upon arrival, which is realistic for radial trips from some hub, but not for major expedition with carefully selected dryfoods etc (or it will take a few days to locate, buy and pack it properly).
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Post  by chrstjrn » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:58 pm

Puffin II plus one paddle, pump, and a PFD is around 30 lbs-- less than 35, in any case. The rest is about as Alex said.
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.
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big ron
airline charges
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Post  by big ron » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:38 am

I just flew back from Toronto to Scotland. I had got my new ( to me ) second hand Kahuna with me, taking it on a plane for first time.

At check in I was 15kg over allownace of 20kg,and expected to have to pay $150 canadian. This still worked out cheaper than postage, customs etc. To my surprise I was asked what was in the bag. My reply 'a kayak ' she said ' is that a canoe? '/sporting goods. Yes I said.

The check in super made a phone call and the informed me that I would be charged $40 for the 'canoe' as it was sporting item. So in the end that as al I paid and having packed it per feathercraft instructions it arrived in Edinburgh with me in on piece.

So in future when I fly with my Kahuna ,the first thing I will do is contact airline and ask them about charge for sporting gear.

Note the airline i flew with was a UK charte Canadian Affiar
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:07:28
Post #43
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 Sailing Rig for Feathercraft
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Post  by aklinz » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:43 am

Just so you know, there is some mis-information out there for anyone who is considering a sailrig for their Feathercraft boat. In many kayak sailing forums, it is almost always stated that upwind sailrigs are available for all folders "except Feathercraft". This is now wrong! Balogh Sail Designs (pronounced BAY-log) has come up with a nifty way to attach a fully-functional, upwind-capable sail and outrigger system to any Feathercraft kayak. Previous forums mistakenly stated that you need an open-cockpit design like a Klepper or Nautiraid in order to attach these sailrigs. Well, Mark Balogh has invented a small device called a "taco" that allows the sail rig to actually be braced and supported by the kayak frame tubes, NOT the skin. I will not try to explain the taco here; suffice it to say it allows one to assemble and disassemble a Feathercraft without any problems. The boat can be sailed or paddled. The only clues to the sailrig mounting are 4 small plastic studs attached to the top of the hull, forward of the cockpit and lying on top of the gunwale tubes. That's it! If you are considering sailing for your Feathercraft, I strongly recommend visiting baloghsaildesigns.com. I have posted a series of pictures showing the assembly of my Balogh Batwing/BOSS sailing rig on my Feathercraft K1 on Photobucket.com. Go to Photobucket, and in the upper left hand corner there is a search field. Type in aklinz . The 18 pictures show the whole process. The complete sailrig weighs about 22 lbs and disassembles and stores in it's own bag (like a Feathercraft). Any comments or questions can be posted here, and I will happily reply. I also have some pics of the actual cutting and drilling and installing process, which took about 2 days. Yeah! In summary, Mark Balogh has made a very slick and high-quality product here; it compares well to the fit and finish and QUALITY of the Feathercraft boat it is installed on.

Andrew Klinzmann
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:46 pm

Previous forums stated something about FC rig too. If I'm not mistaken, the first ever photo of BSD/K1 rig like yours I saw at the Folbot forum about 2 years ago. Poor photo, no details, published not by the owner, so this guy couldn't comment. Other Folboters didn't show much interest in rig for non-Folbot boat, which is usual for that forum.

There was also information by Mark at the Yahoo Bagboater forum on the 32 sq ft sail installed on Kahuna, similar to yours, but with the hole for the mast cut in the deck aft of the cockpit.

It's not that close-cockpit boats can't take an upwind rig. They are just less suitable for both rig installation and actual sailing. Balogh makes upwind rig hardware for hardshell kayaks, similar to that for K1 (shown on his website with Mark himself in the boat), - with the same oval pieces (tacos) and struts. I tried BSD 32 sq ft sail on Kahuna, - different from your rig, - with mast through the aft hatch (similar to Tony Niilus rig on K1 http://www.geocities.com/niilus/ , which in turn was inspired by Mark's rig on Feathercraft ST (discontinued model). I have also installed the same BSD 32 sq.ft sail on Longhaul MK1 (same as Klepper AE1).

In a hardshell kayak I had to dismantle his rig - BC waters have more currents than winds, and the most windy months are February through April, when only very tough people would want to sail. Too cold. And paddling with outriggers in place results in 20-25% slower speed or more efforts.

In Kahuna I like the aft rig for very good possibility of paddling with outriggers in place - a lot of room for paddling strokes.

In MK1/AE1 - I didn't try it yet, because parts arrived late in the fall, but the outrigger crossbar will hamper the paddling a lot in this location, this is obvious. It would be possible to paddle it so-so only with long tubes (akas) removed. Which automatically means removal of 3 upper mast sections. I'm talking about normal kayaking paddle - Euro, GP, - whatever. With canoe paddle - no problem, of course.

In your K1 rig (this is second time I see some photos) the outrigger crossbar is installed few inches fore than in MK1/AE1, so it should have more room for paddling strokes than in AE1. Looks like with the midsection only (without akas) there is almost enough room - the midsection crossbar is above the toes, and this is the point of paddle entry.

So I am now asking myself whether modifying K1 for Balogh wouldn't be better than installing it on MK1, which is, as I have realized, slower and significantly heavier than K1. Probably, both these boats have pros and cons. MK1 will have drier ride under sails than K1, and better options to dismantle the rig (especially on water) and store in the boat for unrestricted paddling. In Kahuna this was a problem, and in K1 - may be better, but still a problem.

For places where there is not always enough wind, K1 is a good match for downwind sail like Spirit or PAcific Action (I have PA). Makes life easier with wind at yuor stern, and doesn't involve any hindrance caused by amas' water resistance and less room for paddle strokes.

Totally agreed on meticulous installation process with Balogh parts (drilling, measuring etc). Everything has to be done very accurately, - otherwise mistakes are costly.
Here is the full web address for your K1 photos, btw: http://photobucket.com/albums/a269/aklinz/ .

Alex.

PS:
aklinz wrote:
I also have some pics of the actual cutting and drilling and installing process
Now, this would be the most interesting. Particularly, coupling of fore rib or median deck stringer with BSD mast partner. Any insulation under "tacos" between the top 2 stringers and deck fabric? What mast step (and mast butt) is used here, - regular flat butt? any additional reinforcing of keelsen tube under the mast-step?
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aklinz
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Post  by aklinz » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:56 pm

Hello Alex.

No, there is no fore-rib on my Feathercraft K1. It is the slightly older model with the welded cockpit, braced by an arc-shaped crosstube. This welded-cockpit/crosstube makes an incredibly rigid box section, which is, in turn, screwed to the deckbar and heavy fibreglass coaming by the front coaming thumbscrew. Feathercraft replaced my standard deckbar with a thicker one, which has the mast bracket as an integral part of it. The mast step is riveted into the (standard) keel tube and consists of a black plastic (delrin) cylynder that is inserted intothe base of the mast. This is secured from rotation and lifting by a large spring button. The deck fabric was also modified by Feathercraft by adding a large hypalon ring around the mast hole. Also added was the larger and longer K2 rudder blade so as to increase the "bite" of the rudder. Feathercraft also retro-fitted the newer webbing-with-grommet connectors for the rudder cables.
And, no, I didn't place any insulation between the deck fabric and the tacos. The screw holes for the tacos were actually melted directly through the fabric and into the thread holes. When installed and sponsons inflated, the whole structure is very stiff, but allows flex throughout the whole frame assembly, within the confines of the skin stretch. All in all, it is a very satisfactory structure, and exhibits the same blend of rigidity/flexibility that the K1 has.

Andrew Klinzmann
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aklinz
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Post  by aklinz » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:09 pm

Oh yeah. Further to your last post, Alex, I positioned my mast exactly 6 inches ahead of the front of my cockpit coaming. In the Feathercraft K1, this allows me to still use my sprayskirt, and I have modified my seasock with two rubber discs that allow the mast to be inserted through the seasock. I fully intend to have a "dry ride" and would never contemplate taking my K1 into open water without the seasock/sprayskirt.
Because of the location of the mast, I can easily assemble/dismantle the whole sail/BOSS assembly, and I have found that the upper 3 mast sections fit well underneath my seat sling. The 2 (assembled) aka/ama's are tucked under straps and bungies behind me on the rear deck, and are completely out of the way when paddling. Similarly, the leeboard would be raised out of the water ahead of the cross-tube, clear of any paddling strokes. Using a slightly higher, more vertical paddle stroke allows me to paddle with the center cross-tube in place without hitting it with the paddle.

Andrew Klinzmann
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:09:05
Post #44
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 Shockcord replacement in longerons
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Post  by gregn » Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:18 pm

Just took my Klondike appart after fall use. I wander how long the shockcords that connect the longerons will last before they start breaking down. I suppose I will worry about it when it happens, but I wouldn't mind if you could share with me your practical experience, ot thoughts on this matter. I cannot figure out what happens inside of those longerons by just looking. Any ideas and thoughts?
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:54 pm

Shock-cords don't hold the frame together - they are there just for convenience of assembly. Shock-cord is held inside by the 8-figure knot that is placed behind the rivet (which usually holds a tubing insert). To replace a shock-cord, remove the rivet, place the knot behind it, and rivet it back again. Rivet-tool for CDN 20 from Canadian Tire will do just fine. I don't think you will have to replace some shock-cord more than once in a season, even with frequent assembling and dissembling.
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mje
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Post  by mje » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:35 pm

My K-1 is 8 years old and has had a lot of use- the previous owner really used and abused it. No shock cord failures yet. Not surprising as the cords aren't under any load and don't have any structural function.
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:40 am

PS: As the only time when I had to replace it, was more than 18 months ago, here is some minor correction to whereabouts of that 8-figure knot at the end of the cord. If I recall it right, the knot is placed not just behind the rivet, but through and behind the washer that covers the end of the small diameter tubing insert.

Some disclaimer is probably needed - the failure of my cord was caused solely by my lame actions when cutting about 3mm off the keelsen tube. I couldn't extend the keelsen of Kahuna up to the last hole in the cockpit area, and even at the 2nd hole it was still extremely tight. I stopped by the factory, and they confirmed - yes, the skin was a bit tighter than needed (they prefer to err on the smaller side when making skins), and I shouldn't have worried about extending the keelsen beyond the 1st hole. Side stringers were OK, but the keelsen I had to cut slightly, since wanted it to be at the 2nd hole - perhaps just my whim. That's how the cord was damaged.
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gregn
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Post  by gregn » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:36 am

Alex, thanks for a very descriptive explanation of things in the longerons. I do not have problems with shock cords yet, but a new thing developed: I cannot assemble my Klondike! Have done it five times since I got the kayak new (early September) without any problems. Lately, I washed the frame and skin, dried everything inside in the house, rolled skin for a few days, and today attempted to assemble. Nada. I'm short about 3" to the first hole, and in the past it was smooth going to the second hole. It looks like the skin has shrunken about 4". Any ideas?

Tomorrow will talk to Feathercraft about it and keep you informed.
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:08 pm

gregn wrote:
I cannot assemble my Klondike! Have done it five times since I got the kayak new (early September) without any problems. Lately, I washed the frame and skin, dried everything inside in the house, rolled skin for a few days, and today attempted to assemble. Nada. I'm short about 3" to the first hole, and in the past it was smooth going to the second hole. It looks like the skin has shrunken about 4". Any ideas?

Tomorrow will talk to Feathercraft about it and keep you informed.
4" difference means you are doing something wrong. I had this problem with Kahuna more than once, and every time something was wrong. This skin is very dimensionally stabile. Probable cases:

Perimeter line or docking line on deck has been tightened too much, or is tangled, and holds the skin from expanding.
Something in the skin is blocking the way of tubes (tubes got caught in the pocket of sponson sleeve, or rudder cables have slack or loop under the stern deck, blocking the tubes).
Dirt in some tubes (unlikely).
Frame is inserted backwards (no offence, I've done this more than once).
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gregn
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Post  by gregn » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:01 pm

Alex, thanks for another very informative reply. I went through everything very carefully. However, I gave it another try this morning and succeded to the first hole (normally I use second). So I'm still about 1" short to where I was before. I think that the skin did not shrink, but wrinkled while in storage for a few days. Now I was able to inflate the sponsoons and stretch the skin. Will leave on first hole untill next demob, or rearrangement of seats.

You made a very good point about deck lines. I also unhooked deck crosscords and opened inflation valves, as well as lubricated again extension tubes. Anyway, it was hard going!

Tomorrow we will be paddling around small islands in Sidney area. You should take a rain check and come for a visit and a little paddle one day. So many places to go around Victoria!
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Mike
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Post  by Mike » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:02 pm

Heh, Heh, Heh....

I remember my first "Oh No!" assembly with my Klondike. I had done all the preventitive maint, and Boe-lubed everything, washed the skin, dried it and rolled it "factory tight". The next time I assembled the boat I had the same trouble you were having. Up under the deck, fore and aft, some of the tubing had slipped out and was jammed end to end instead of one in the other. It took a several double-checks to find the problem. I actually found the disjoints by feel, before I figured it out. Surprise! That Boe-sheild do make 'em slippery!


Mike
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:22 pm

Mike wrote:
Up under the deck, fore and aft, some of the tubing had slipped out and was jammed end to end instead of one in the other. It took a several double-checks to find the problem. I actually found the disjoints by feel, before I figured it out. Surprise! That Boe-sheild do make 'em slippery!
Mike
I had this too, and there are probably some more mistakes that one can make, unnamed yet :-)... If something doesn't go in, then something is wrong - usually with the frame. This skin is not a Klepper's or Longahul's cotton (which shrinks when wet, but I didn't notice this to be irreversible), and it's not a Folbot type (sorry) of laminated deck fabric either. Shrinkage doesn't happen, and wrinkles take a long time to develop. Take it apart, remove it from the skin, check everything (yes, and then extend all the tubes again). I was trying to force the frame of Kahuna in, once, when it was backwards, and another time - when it caught rudder cables under the stern deck, and then one more time, when adjustable rudder downhaul bungey cord (sailing DIY addition) was set on its shorter length. HAtch sleeves might catch the frame too (don't remember if this happened to me on FC - on Longhaul it happens almost at every dissembling).

I'm trying not to keep the skin in a tight roll when not in a bag - lay it loozely on the shelf or under the sofa.
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gregn
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Post  by gregn » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:17 am

Mike, good observation with the lubricant. I was thinking about using soap, cleaned with the bottle brush and lubricated extension tubes well, then opened inflation valves. Whatever it was, did the trick.

I hope that the skin will stretch somehow with time, but as I said, the first five times were easy, just click, click, click.

Mike, your description of Klondike is right on. It is not a Porshe, but it gives me a very secure feeling in rough seas. With my 6'5" and getting old stability and safety is very important. I'm doing ok with a group of experienced paddlers in hard shells by myself, and in double configuration with my wife we are quite relaxed with the same group.
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aklinz
Shockcords
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Post  by aklinz » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:14 am

Hey Gregn.
The shockcords in your boat should last years!. My K1 was abused by it's original owner, and the 8 year old cords began to get a little bit loose. When I commented on this to Scott Gater at Feathercraft, he told me to send the tubes to them. They restrung new shockcords for free! Awesome service from these guys. But you shouldn't need this service for years to come.

Andrew Klinzmann
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gregn
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Post  by gregn » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:59 pm

Andrew, thanks for reply. I, too, have a positive feeling about the company and their products. Hope that I will not need to restring the cords in the near future.
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:10:15
Post #45
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 got fed up with the surf always stopping me from taking the Kahuna rockfishing when I visit friends in Santa Cruz, and so I went for it with partial success: getting out from the beach was an exhilirating, punch-through-waves experience and the Kahuna behaved great.

But after a brief bit of paddling I realized that my fishing tackle box had been stripped out of the rigging. Dang. While fumbling about back in the surf zone trying to rescue it, I got tossed big time by a wave that scattered my paddle float, jacket, water bottle, etc . . . the tackle box never did get recovered, though everything else did.

Worst of it, is that the gunwale bar on the right side of my front section is slighly -- not very, but unmistakably, bent. I was pretty much riding a wave when my butt got lifted and the bow plowed into shallow sandy bottom. Is this a situation where one might try to bend it back manually, or does it need to get sent back to Vancouver for help?

I have already called and signed up for a surf techniques class, and will not lightly commit my poor Kahuna to such a situation again sad
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:14 pm

Aluminum has a "memory" efffect; it will bend again easier at the same spot if you load this spot again. If you can bend it back, then you may just let it be, until the next bend. Or order this tube and replace it. Easy to do, no need to send the whole bow sub-assembly to Vancouver.
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eguillermo
Sounds good
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Post  by eguillermo » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:09 pm

Sounds good Alm, I'm about to try it in my living room. I had to bring the boat in last night to dry out, the weather has been so unrelentingly wet down here! Good to hear I don't have to send the whole deal back.

Happy paddling!
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Kapitän von Klepper
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Post  by Kapitän von Klepper » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:43 pm

In one of my former lives as a ski tech, (and also believe it or not, Ferrier (Horse Shoeing) studies in my British Horse Society) Instructor certification,) I learned to work w/ aluminum. With ski teching I found that aluminum tubes (ski poles) can be worked w/ best if packed w/ sand or BB's and bent back or out of shape (racing poles). In my ferrier studies, I learned that aluminum shoes (high performance horses) can be gently manipulated w/ subtle heat. Aluminum "cooks" far more quickly than iron and once these metels have reached that stage they disitigrate. The problem w/ aluminum is that you can't read its temperature visually like you can iron. Basically, once aluminum starts to glow, it starts to "cook". Subtle heating does allow one to bend the aluminum stock easier and avoid crimping it. Unfortunately aluminum isn't a forgiving metal either and is easily subject to fatigue if over manipulated in the same spot.

Sorry to hear about your "yard sale". At least you got most of your things back.
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:14 pm

I forgot to ask, and you didn’t tell - what bar; the one not attached to the bow-piece, is the easiest to replace. Drill out the rivet, replace the bar, align the rivet holes and rivet it in. Shouldn’t take more than 10 minutes, but you’ll need a rivet tool - manual tool is OK, and rivet. I did this on keelsen - very easy.
If this bar is attached to the bow-piece - it si more complicated. With this tiny hole, - may be you’ll need to remove the end-plug to access the lock-nut. I didn't try this.

And if it is a lower bar, (which would be a chine bar, and not a gunwale), - then there are many, many rivets on pedal rail - I woud just order it from FC together with rail.
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User avatartsunamichuck
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Maybe you should stick to the calm waters of Pyramid Lake
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Post  by tsunamichuck » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:15 pm

:lol: It went fom rough to calm to crazy within 2 hours. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tsunamich ... ?.dir=acc8
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:14:39
Post #46
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 How to reinforce Kahuna for T-rescues
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Post  by kahunafan » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:29 am

Hi,
after using my Big Kahuna so far only on rivers and lakes, I am preparing for some more serious coastal paddling and therefore I have started to do some rescue training.

Overall everything is fine, the Big Kahuna is a great boat to climb back into (with & without assistance of another boat) and help others.

However already during the first rescue session, performing a T-rescue with another hardshell boat, the deck fabric was damaged on top of the deck bar - mind you, I thought I was being careful. Nothing too serious, the skin is still watertight, only the colored top layer came off at an area around the size of half a small fingernail, however it still annoys me on this beautiful boat.

How would you advice should I repair this?
Simple glueing a small patch of deck fabric will not prevent this from happening again, and I plan to do those rescue exercises on a regular basis.
And I especially do NOT want to worry about my "nice boat" during a rescue - other things are more important in that situation.

I asked Feathercraft if it would be possible to glue on a strip of urethan material that they use e.g. on the K1 for exactly that purpose (but welded, not glued), but they advice against this (as far as I understood the material is too rigid and getting bend by the deck bar could delaminate the deck fabric at the edges of the glued on strip).
They could send my a strip of polytech deck fabric, but although protecting the skin this will be damaged as easily as the original deck fabric and start looking bad.

Any advice?

Cheers,
Alex
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User avatartsunamichuck
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Re: How to reinforce Kahuna for T-rescues
Quote
Post  by tsunamichuck » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:37 am

kahunafan wrote:

Any advice?

Cheers,
Alex
Do not worry about cosmetics.You can reinforce from the underside of your deck with some polytech fabric, but scratches and gouges happen, especially when the sea gets rough and you are learning new skills. Think of your scratches etc as battle scars.
Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
Innova Safari
Mariner I
Feathercraft Java
Nautiraid 14
Innova Sunny
Aire Tributary Sawtooth
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doehlsen
How to reinforce Kahuna for T-rescues
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Post  by doehlsen » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:55 pm

I have a Big Kahuna and experienced a similar problem. My compass was scratching through the surface of the deck over the deck bar. Feathercraft posted a warning on their site which instructed owners to turn the attachments for deck bungies so that the curved side rested against the deck to prevent similar damage. So this is a know issue with Feathercrafts.

Not wanting my deck to be damaged and certainly not wanting to cause a leak, I cut a piece of the hull patch material from the Feathercraft repair kit and glued it to the deck over the deck bar. As you note, this is similar to the strip that Feathercraft uses on the K1 and Kats.

The patch flexes quite readily over the deck bar and seems quite secure. I can see no damage to the deck - certainly no delaminating. The patch has been there for 2 years without any adverse affects. In addition to protecting the deck fabric while on the water, it protects the it when I cartop the boat and throw a strap over the front deck. I've been considering adding two additional patches over the chine bars in the rear that seem to be suffering some abrasion from cartop straps. I think FC should include a deck strip to the Kahuna as they do with their other boats.

I'm surprised that Feathercraft discouraged you from gluing a patch over the deck bar given that they provide patch material and glue to patch both deck and hull. This isn't a part of the deck that flexes during use, so I can't see how it would cause delamination.

I took a picture of my deck patch which I'd be glad to send to you since I can't figure out how to attach it to this response.

Also, I disagree with tsunamichuck, looks are important. I plan to keep my Kahuna for a long time and want it to look good for years.
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User avatartsunamichuck
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Re: How to reinforce Kahuna for T-rescues
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Post  by tsunamichuck » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:10 pm

doehlsen wrote:
Also, I disagree with tsunamichuck, looks are important. I plan to keep my Kahuna for a long time and want it to look good for years.
Scratches, patches and scuffs are beautiful. They indicate a boat is being well used and the owner is pushing their skills. My wife's 2002 Kahuna is pretty pristine. It does not get paddled that much. My Khats is scuffed, patched and nicked. She still looks great and has seen some great beaches, reefs and waters.
Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
Innova Safari
Mariner I
Feathercraft Java
Nautiraid 14
Innova Sunny
Aire Tributary Sawtooth
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kahunafan
Re: How to reinforce Kahuna for T-rescues
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Post  by kahunafan » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:46 am

doehlsen wrote:
Not wanting my deck to be damaged and certainly not wanting to cause a leak, I cut a piece of the hull patch material from the Feathercraft repair kit and glued it to the deck over the deck bar. As you note, this is similar to the strip that Feathercraft uses on the K1 and Kats.

The patch flexes quite readily over the deck bar and seems quite secure. I can see no damage to the deck - certainly no delaminating. The patch has been there for 2 years without any adverse affects.
That is good to know because that was the route I wanted to go initially as well and probably will go (as long as this will not void the warranty...).
However my hull patch material is not long enough to cut a strip that runs along the whole deck (which I would like, mostly because of looks I have to confess  wink )
As far as I know, Feathercraft will weld on the "real thing" of urethane strips during fabrication if you order them directly with your boat - I have seen several Swiss Kahunas & Whispers that have those because their main FC dealer always advices to get them as an extra (good advice, the German dealers should learn from that!).

I will contact Feathercraft again and ask if they can provide a piece of hull patch material long enough, I guess they where thinking of the same (thicker?) material they use for welding when they adviced against glueing it.

@tsunamichuck:
Yes & no:
Yes, scratches/scars will show & give a individual personality to a boat - but then they should be "well earned".
No, looks are important for me - while I use my boat as often as possible (~4-6 h a week) I still take pride in the looks and good condition of it - and since it is fairly new and my first "real" folder and FC boat I have to confess that I tend to pamper it a bit  big smile
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:59 am

Go ahead and glue that black strip. May be I will do this sometime later too. What do you have to lose if it delaminates at the edges and you'll have to remove it?... Except for the looks, of course - removing the strip will leave the deck-ridge fairly well protected, albeit not pristine looking, with Aquaseal layer. In my opinion, unless the boat is for sale in the nearest future, quality (i.e. functional condition) is more important than looks, - this is why I have already covered the most abraded spots on the deck with Aquaseal, not just along the deck-ridge, but everywhere where found it necessary. This haven't made the abrasions less conspicuous, rather to the contrary, but it made them protected. There is no way to cover the entire deck with black hull material. "Battle scars" will inevitably appear here and there, and will have to be dealt with.
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doehlsen
Post subject: Re: How to reinforce Kahuna for T-rescues
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Post  by doehlsen » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:27 am

The strip I installed is about 18 inches long. I used the material provided in the FC repair kit. It's about 4 inches wide near the cockpit, tapering to 3 inches toward the bow with rounded corners - to help prevent delamination. I've done T-rescues and it protects the area most suseptible to abrasion.
It works for me.
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kahunafan
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Post  by kahunafan » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:33 am

Thanks Alm, doehlsen - I will do that.

Related question: I have used 303 Aerospace Protectant on my deck (& the whole skin) - I guess I would need to remove this from the area I am going to glue the strips on, any suggestions on the best way doing that?

Cheers,
Alex
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doehlsen
Re: How to reinforce Kahuna for T-rescues
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Post  by doehlsen » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:12 pm

I haven't used 303 on my Kahuna. I'd contact Feathercraft; you don't want to use a solvent on the deck that might damage it. It may not be necessary to remove the 303.

I think the trick to making this work is to make the strip wide enough so that it flexes over the deck bar. A thin strip like that on teh K1 or Khats might delaminate, where a wider strip will not. The one I installed is a larger version of the small strip behind the cockpit.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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kayakamper
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Post  by kayakamper » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:22 pm

We had these questions on another thread this past July I think. I have used 303 protectant on my Kahuna with Feathercrafts blessing ( I asked them if they had any info on whether it was a good idea or not and they recommend it on the cordura fabric, but have no experience in duratec )

It has been great. It will wear off after a few months. The only concern is repair of the fabric with a healthy dose of protectant and whether AguaSeal would adhear. I concluded that Cotol might remove the protectant so you can patch or wait until it wears off.

As for scuffing, I agree with the principal Tsumanichuck and Alex have as war scars or tattoos of a good paddle, but I have put a small drop of Aqua Seal on my 'scars' to seal them and not worried about covering them up...why bother?

As for Tee rescues, in practice, I have always taken care to lift, if possible and hop the bow onto my boat and not dragged it so much. It is also the time to lift to break the cockpit seal to get the water out and flip it as soon as possible. If you are practicing with someone who owns a plastic boat they might not be as aware of the somewhat delicate skin, but I think of it everytime I practice. It is interesting that Feathercraft has a strip running down the ridge on the K1 and K2 as well as the Khats I believe.

They are premium priced though.

Chris
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User avatarkrudave
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Quote
Post  by krudave » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:36 pm

Time does reduce the ability of 303 to inhibit adhesion.

On hulls, this is not an issue, if you abrade through the exterior layer of hull to solid, unaffected material, and bond to that. I consistently 303 the hulls of my folders and have never had a patch fail, because I really scuff it up.

Solvents do not remove 303 effectively. Cotol is simply toluene, a good solvent, and good for prepping surfaces for Aquaseal, but it will not remove 303. There are some really aggressive "cleaners" used by the automotive glass installation industry that are better than toluene for this, but I would not recommend them because of their toxicity. I have a bit of one (from 3M), and use it sparingly, with lots of ventilation.

On decks, 303 is a bugaboo, because you can't get rid of the stuff that has migrated dowward, into the weave, by abrasion. I would not use it on deck fabric for that reason. Exception: folders which have a non-woven deck.

Repairing nicks on your deck with Aquaseal is probably a good first thing to try. If it does not stick, it tells you the 303 is not gone yet. Wait a few months, remove the duct tape you put on for a temp patch, clean the duct tape adhesive off (Cotol will do that well), and try again.

303 is good for hulls, and not so good for decks.
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:12 am

krudave wrote:
On decks, 303 is a bugaboo, because you can't get rid of the stuff that has migrated dowward, into the weave, by abrasion. I would not use it on deck fabric for that reason. Exception: folders which have a non-woven deck.
...

303 is good for hulls, and not so good for decks.
the last one is an interesting conclusion, - which I would agree in principle. Textured surface of FC deck retains 303 longer than the smooth surface of hull, and when abrasion does happen, on the hull there is still plenty of thickness to apply the patch to (after 303 is gone together with a good chunk of the hull material).

And this sort of defeats the purpose of 303, which is serving as a UV inhibitor and water repellent (not waterproof barrier, but exactly - repellent). Both purposes make little sense if applied to the hull, don't they?

On getting rid of 303: to my observations, with regular weekend use it gets washed away by the end of the season, and then patches can be applied and/or 303 sprayed on again.
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kayakamper
Quote
Post  by kayakamper » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:54 pm

Alm wrote:

And this sort of defeats the purpose of 303, which is serving as a UV inhibitor and water repellent (not waterproof barrier, but exactly - repellent). Both purposes make little sense if applied to the hull, don't they?

On getting rid of 303: to my observations, with regular weekend use it gets washed away by the end of the season, and then patches can be applied and/or 303 sprayed on again.
Well said Alex. I applied 303 Protectant on my Kahuna deck in June per the instructions on the lable. It looks like it is getting time for another application, but will wait until Spring.

I am happy with what it did to the look of the somewhat faded red and black material. Whether it actually slowed the aging is a question I can't answer, but I think the benefits outweigh the potential patching problems ( BTW I didn't have any patching problems this Summer ).

Chris
Big Red Kahuna
Atlanta Ga.
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gregn
Quote
Post  by gregn » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:46 pm

I have applied 303 protectant a few times a year for over two years on my Klondike's deck and hull. To my thinking the 303 will protect the deck from UV fading and staining, and the hull from collecting harbour grime. After being on the water many times, the kayak still looks like new, with all its colours and shine ( I hope that it is not a subjective statement). Of course, the bottom has a few scratches, but after 303 treatment they seem to visually disappear.

I bet you any money that the treated kayak gains somehow on speed, or rather effort required to keep it at certain speed. In my case, I need any help I can get to keep my Klondike going when in company of fiberglass boats.

I used to wax my previous kayak, a fiberglass Telkwa from time to time. When time came to sell it, I demanded top bucks ( and got it) without any problems. It really looked like new!
Last edited by gregn on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Alm
Quote
Post  by Alm » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:42 am

I think I understand why FC is discouraging gluing the black strip after-market. Unlike users, the factory is probably welding it to the deck, in the same manner as they weld the same 2 materials along the hull-deck seam - this must be more reliable. But like somebody has proved, the glued strip holds well when cut wider than regular black strip on K1. Which still doesn't explain why the heck they at the FC couldn't weld this strip on Kahuna.
gregn wrote:
I used to wax my previous kayak, a fiberglass Telkwa from time to time. When time came to sell it, I demanded top bucks ( and got it) without any problems. It really looked like new!
Did the same to my old kitchen linoleum when selling my apartment. Some "Shinekeeper floor polish". Looked almost like new - for a while ;-) ... Didn't make it really new, of course. Still feels better than touch-up painting over scratches in the old bathtub (I don't do that).

 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:15:00
Post #47
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 Alex wrote:

>>I think I understand why FC is discouraging gluing the black strip after-market. Unlike users, the factory is probably welding it to the deck, in the same manner as they weld the same 2 materials along the hull-deck seam - this must be more reliable. But like somebody has proved, the glued strip holds well when cut wider than regular black strip on K1. Which still doesn't explain why the heck they at the FC couldn't weld this strip on Kahuna. <<

FC must be welding it on, see this ad for one of their seconds:
http://www.feathercraft.com/kayaks/clearance.php ( see the third Kahuna down the page. The yellow one with the "welded" patches)

Seems to me that the strips are left off the Kahuna in the same way the plastic ribs are used. Cost savings of the boat.

Chris
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:57 pm

Well, if they weld patches, then they can weld this long black strip on Kahuna post-production - shouldn't cost more than $100.
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kahunafan
Quote
Post  by kahunafan » Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:25 am

They do weld those strips on the K1/Khat or if you order them from the start with a Kahuna or Whisper.

As why they can weld after-market those patches in the pictures but not the deckbar strip: I guess it might not be possible to reach those areas of an already build skin with their welding machine and even if that would work (with a lot of extra labor) it would not be cost effective to ship my skin around the globe for a couple of scratches.

For now I will use my boat with the duct tape protection until the 303 starts to wear off and then I will glue on a protection strip.

Alex
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kahunafan
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Post  by kahunafan » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:44 am

Update:
It seems I misread FCs last email - in fact they can send me a strip of the more supple black hull material for me to glue on.
What they actually adviced against was to use/glue exactly the same (stronger?) material they use for welding on the e.g. K1.

So after my 303 has worn off I will glue on such a strip of hull material.

Cheers,
Alex
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origami
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Post  by origami » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:37 pm

some very useful info on patching here but perhaps the potential damage could be avoided to some extent by changing your rescue methods.
Brian Day wrote a good article in Sea Kayaker on the modified T rescue. [sorry not at home and able to give the issue number]
This avoids much of the lifting mentioned and most of the friction occurs on the cockpit rim where it is protected by your spray skirt; which is easily repaired or eventually replaced. It does however require the use of a seasock to be effective otherwise an x rescue would be necessary.
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:17:51
Post #48
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 Observations on my new old K1
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Post  by Bazzer » Wed May 16, 2007 1:20 am

First of all, who ever told you putting a K1 together was right, a right royal pain in the ar#se. Particularity when you try to do it for the second time without the directions. Got the seat sling in the last time, but attached it to the chines and not the gunwales. Duh! Here in Redding it was hot, 95 maybe, the skin went on ok, but the coaming would not. So I paddled for a bit and once the skin had cooled down it went on ok. I am going to try to lube the rigid coaming part with some dry Teflon.
Because of the hot skin and the coaming issue mentioned above, I set off without inflating the sponsons, big mistake, I quickly learned how much stability sponson give your.
It's a great kayak however, now I am making a Greenland Paddle for it, I am going for a 2 piece.
The deck did leak a little around the seams, but some seam sealer has taken care of that, I hope.

More later if you are interested.

Barry
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Alm
Re: Observations on my new old K1
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Post  by Alm » Wed May 16, 2007 2:37 am

Bazzer wrote:
Got the seat sling in the last time, but attached it to the chines and not the gunwales.
In Kahuna (must be similar layout of the sling), I leave those tubes in the sling sleeves after dissembling. Just wrap the sling around them and throw in the bag. This way I still connect the wrong pairs of tubes sometimes :-) , but at least don't forget putting the sling onto its tubes.

Also, I've marked the rear ends of those 4 "sling tubes" with black electric tape (and the "seat" end of the keelsen too - or may be there was originally some black marking on the keelsen only, I don't remember). Sling tubes are not connected to the keelsen, of course, but with "black to black" I at least don't attach the sling tubes to the rest of the frame backwards.
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kiamakayaker
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Post  by kiamakayaker » Wed May 16, 2007 5:38 am

Hey there Bazzer

Yep......can relate to your story there (and that of Alex) !

I've been in a similar position when assembling my Kahuna in the tropical north of Australia on a very hot, humid day and at the same time being eaten alive by the dreaded sandflies (midgies?).  :x

The more I tried to hasten the process....... the more I seemed to overlook crucial steps of the assembly. I must have near doubled the normal assembly time due to the conditions (largely bought on by my own frustration I'd suggest.)  :oops:

I swear...........I was sweating bullets in the heat that day!

Anyhow, it was a lesson well learnt.
"Hasten slowly" is now my motto whenever I assemble the K1 or Kahuna.

Cheers George
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Kapitän von Klepper
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Post  by Kapitän von Klepper » Wed May 16, 2007 11:35 am

95 degrees in Redding, -In the Spring???!!! I guess that's global warming for you.
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Wed May 16, 2007 3:14 pm

"Hasten slowly" is definitely the way with these boats. I saw K1, tried it, but never assembled. May be it needs some colour-coding for those middle sections. With Kahuna there are less chances of mistakes, since there are fewer tubes. The most stupid thing I ever done, was trying desperately (for 20 or 30 minutes!) to expand the frame, in a rush and with a lot of sweating, before I realized that the frame was put in the skin backwards. If the place wasn't so crowded (holiday weekend, many people in the park) and I wasn't in such a hurry to leave the shore, this probably wouldn't have happened.

When I compare Kahuna to some other folders that I assembled - the effort required to expand the frame is well within my abilities, and I am not that tough. Inserting big ribs in Kahuna needs finesse rather than a brute force - proper positioning of the rib and proper hand movements. Total energy spent on assembling and chances of making mistakes in Kahuna are not higher than with wooden frame of Klepper-style boats (the latter has more separate parts and takes me more attention and thinking than with Kahuna - though this may be different for different people).

If Kahuna (or K1) DOES require too much efforts to expand even to the 1st hole, then either you're doing something wrong, or the boat needs some tune-up (lubricating tubes with Bo-shield and loosening the perimeter line and bungeys), or the skin is too tight and should be replaced. Alternatively, too tight skin can be remedied (very carefully!) by cutting or filing the midsection tubes by a fraction of inch.
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kayakamper
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Post  by kayakamper » Wed May 16, 2007 4:37 pm

Bazzer,

No one has mentioned to you yet to check out the Feathercraft site and print out the instructions for your craft.
http://www.feathercraft.com/resources/a ... Expedition

It will make assembly a lot easier. Also, sounds like some cordura deck shrinkage on your boat. It will beat you up if the boat has not been assembled in a while. Also a killer to get the coaming on.  :x

If you can keep the boat assembled for a while and car top it when you go to paddle, that might strech the skin back to shape. They need to be assembled a lot to keep the skin from shrinking.
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Bazzer
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Post  by Bazzer » Wed May 16, 2007 5:43 pm

Please, no Global Warming here! It is common for Redding to be this hot this time of the year. It's down to 87 today....
One thing I can tell you about synthetic is that it shrinks when it's hot and expands when it's cold. I use a boat for work three or four times a week and in the early mornings the winch strap is loose, if you leave it until later in the day when the temps are up it's tight again, the same seems to be true with Cordua. On the subject of Cordura and Feathercraft decks, you might be interested to know that there is a readily available material to re-coat it with. It's called Recoat 3 by Kenyon. It''s a aqueous urethane and is easily painted on. I used it a long while ago on a Gregory Backpack when the urethane coating on that peeled off. It's still good. Dries colorless as well. I've not done my decks yet because the present coating is still good. I did seam seal as Feathercraft recommends though.

I have the instructions, but I want to be able to assemble my K1 without them. What I have done is make some assembly notes on a waterproof notepad that I have. Hopefully after a couple more times I won't need that! We shall see.
Not only is the coaming hard to get on, but # 3 rib is a pain as well. I am worried that one of the points might pierce the skin if I am not careful.

Barry
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kayakamper
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Post  by kayakamper » Wed May 16, 2007 8:26 pm

Sounds like you have done more Feathercraft homework than I assumed :oops: It sounds like a good idea to have a 'cheat sheet' for assembly, especially for the K-1. The kahuna assembly is pretty easy to memorize. I don't usually make mistakes unless I am distracted.

BTW, I wonder, is the recoat 3 a good product for the newer duretec skin as well :?:
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Bazzer
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Post  by Bazzer » Wed May 16, 2007 8:41 pm

Recoat should be good for most fabrics. As for Duratec I wouldn't have thought it would ever be needed. But I must admit that I have never seen it.

BTW My Cordura skin was ok in the heat except for the coaming. Next time I am lubing the plastic coaming with Dry Teflon before I attempt to install it. I started from the front and had a big problem getting it in place around the bend at the back. I'm thinking next time to start at the back and work forward.

The two big assembly issues for me are the coaming and the number 3 rib

Barry
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User avatarkrudave
Site Admin
Posts: 1035
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Post  by krudave » Wed May 16, 2007 9:17 pm

bazzer, that cordura expansion/contraction is humidity/dryness-driven, not temp-driven. Wet the skin and it will loosen right up.
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.
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Bazzer
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Post  by Bazzer » Wed May 16, 2007 9:21 pm

Wet skin is not a problem for you up there :lol: It's so hot here all I have to do is make sure my sweat drips on it big smile Now how that for being green?

Barry
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kayakamper
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Post  by kayakamper » Thu May 17, 2007 7:44 am

Also Bazzer, I am sure you are considering this, but you need to keep the sponsons deflated when installing the coaming.

As for the duretec and coating it, I don't know if it ever needs coated either, but after 5 or 6 years of use, I wonder if it is loosing a little protection over time.
 
旧帖 2020-10-09 03:22:40
Post #49
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
kurtyang04 离线 kurtyang04 Are raccoons able to damage my Kahuna (I normally store the food inside the kayak, turned upside down)? What about mice (if stored for example in the garage)?
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Alm
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Post  by Alm » Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:00 pm

Not from personal experience - but either of them can make the way trough, if needed. Ranger warned me particularly regarding racoons and tents (especially with food inside) - there was plenty of them and very persistent, and they did manage to steal my apple from lunch stump right in my presence when I turned away, but didn't try to do anything with tent when I went to walk around the island. Why keeping Kahuna uspide down, if it's not a secret? $15 cockpit cover will protect it from rain, if this is a concern.
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User avatartsunamichuck
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1248
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Probably
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Post  by tsunamichuck » Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:29 pm

I found some nibbles had been taken out of 1 of my bags, probably by a rat. I can state with certainty that folding kayakers eat animals.
Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
Innova Safari
Mariner I
Feathercraft Java
Nautiraid 14
Innova Sunny
Aire Tributary Sawtooth
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Guest
re animals eating kahuna
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Post  by Guest » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:09 pm

Have had racoon go thru soft zipped up small cooler to get at food. Kahuna deck would probably not present problem to dedicated racoon trying to get at food inside.
Have renovated old canvas folbot with some mice having eaten through deck material but probably not applicable at all to newer deck,non-canvas, material feathercraft is using.
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User avatarmaryinoxford
lord high faltbotmeister
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
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Post  by maryinoxford » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:21 am

I've seen a museum exhibit showing a piece of lead piping, from the days when this was used for domestic water supplies. The lead pipe had a hole chewed through it by rats. (The caption said they did it to get a drink, but didn't suggest how they knew water was inside. Maybe licked off the condensation and were looking for more?)

I once worked on a farm where grain sacks were regularly chewed through, and also specialist plastic feed sacks, but oddly, not paper feed sacks - maybe they can't smell food through multi-layer paper.

If there are rodents around, (and where are they not?) it's probably not a good idea to keep food in a kayak, unless closed in tins.

Mary
Not in Oxford any more...
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User avatarkrudave
Site Admin
Posts: 1035
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Post  by krudave » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:38 am

maryinoxford wrote:
If there are rodents around, (and where are they not?) it's probably not a good idea to keep food in a kayak, unless closed in tins.
I agree. On an extended trip, another kayaker stored some peanuts inside her drybag, sitting on the ground. Rats holed it one night, so she removed the food, and duct-taped it shut. Next night, they holed it in a new spot, pursuing the smell of the gone peanuts. Hypalon would not be a barrier to rats, I suspect.

Those same nights, I had 40 lbs of various vegetables and fruits, also in a drybag, but suspended on a line run over a branch, some 10 feet out from the tree trunk, and about 10 feet off the ground (no bears on this island, but possibly raccons). No incidents.

I don't like rats.
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
--
Folbot Kodiak, Cooper, and Edisto; three hardshells; Mothership: Surf Scoter the Bartender; dinghy Little Blue Duck.
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gregn
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Post  by gregn » Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:01 pm

Dave, rats go nuts when they smell peanut butter. It is the best bait for the rat trap!
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User avatarchrstjrn
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Kansai, Japan
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Post  by chrstjrn » Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:48 pm

I had rats eat through a heavy cordura backpack, once, to get at crumbs inside.

I once attended a lecture that sidetracked onto the difficulties that farmers have with rats. American farmers allegedly long-since gave up, and american bread supposedly has a maximum allowable percentage of rat-excretion (maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can confirm or refute this). Even more interesting, when Asian farmers had set up electric fences (rat-height) to keep the rats out, one rat would commit suicide on the fence and then his relatives would use his body as a bridge to get to the food.

Last year I saw a TV documentary on rats in India: the most effective measure is to hire rat-hunters. There is an entire class (caste?) of people who travel from farm to farm-- the whole family is involved-- and systematically eliminate rats. They exist largely on rat-meat (the documentary obliged with footage of the feast around the campfire).

I hope you weren't about to eat. In any case, my conclusion is that I never underestimate rats.

Somebody who is shipping out of here over the next few weeks has two pet rats that her daughter bought at a pet store. They were soft and affectionate, playing in their cage. She hoped I would adopt them-- had only praise for them, as pets. I don't think I could get past the fact that they are, well... rats. But they are brilliant animals. So are cockroaches, I suppose...
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.
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seakayaker
animals
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Post  by seakayaker » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:42 am

I've had Ants colonies inside my k1 a couple times eating out left overs. Ravens (pretty smarts) making their way thru the coam into the food storage bags. Crabs making their way into my turned over kayak during the nught & eating the walls thru the collapsable coolers I used for food storage. Seals wondering if they could hitch a ride on the boat......I've been lucky; the worst was to clean the stench left by the ravens. But if animals sense food in the boat, they will ge go for it.
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mje
Site Admin
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan
Quote
Post  by mje » Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:38 pm

I've had chipmunks (aka the Northern Michigan Pygmy Grizzly) burrow though a tent wall and food bag to get at a bag of freeze-dried food.
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seakayaker_k1
Hungry beasts
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Post  by seakayaker_k1 » Sat May 06, 2006 5:56 pm

Rats WILL cause damage if the boat is the only thing they can chew, believe me! They chew through the hull, sponsons, hypalon, anything, ...Crabs bore thru the collapsible coollers with food inside but no damage to the boat...Next day I sure put the boat off the sand on some wood sticks I found.
Seakayaker_k1
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MedicineMan
beware of porcupines
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Post  by MedicineMan » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:25 am

these animals will eat/chew anything that has salt on it.....frequently hiking on the Appalachian Trail I've seen where a hiker has sat on a wood shelter floor and later where the pocurpines literally ate the wood where they sat for the salt--this is 3/4 inch plywood with bit size chunks gone....here in the south though we dont have porcupines but beware as you paddle north.
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User avatarchrstjrn
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Posts: 1724
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Location: Kansai, Japan
Quote
Post  by chrstjrn » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:36 am

So true! The bottoms of old outhouses in New England are always eaten away by porcupines.
Chris T.
Klymit Packraft
In storage in the US:
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind
'64 Klepper T12
Early '90s Old Town Canoe
Previous:
'04 Pakboat Puffin II
'05 Swift (prototype)
'84 Hobie 16.
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Kapitän von Klepper
Quote
Post  by Kapitän von Klepper » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:21 pm

I have it on good authority that porcupines will eat the frame on a wooden framed kayak. Park and Forest Rangers in Alaska routinely advise paddlers of certain vessels to take precautions.
My own experience with rats is that they will "taste" anything! -and especially if it has residual salt.
Racoons, -Very tenacious creatures. When we first came to the States, we had one for a pet. He did "crew" on our AE II and I can't remember any specific incidents. I believe they are more apt to wreck something to get to something edible (or collectable wink ) -but not taste the inanimate object itself.
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mje
Site Admin
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan
Quote
Post  by mje » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:17 pm

I have known racoons to eat Oreos, marshmallows, and worms from my bait bucket, but no kayak frames... yet.
Michael
 
旧帖 2020-10-10 01:07:23
Post #50
Re: Feathercraft 永远的经典——国际技术讨论保 ...
 
skywalker1966 当前在线 skywalker1966 BSD的sailing rig安装的独特性不是一般人能想到的,但是只要是永固式安装sailing rig,势必要多少破坏一些折叠艇的蒙皮。
BSD的David,只在pakboats,longhaul以及folbot(现在已经关门)的某种特定的皮艇上安装过sailing rig,而且folbot当年是BSD的唯一代理商。David还是喜欢在硬艇上加sailing kit的,那样子,船主不心疼,他也不麻烦。
现在和BSD合作的只有sail your kayak了,而falcon sail的Patrick 一开始是不想让皮艇变成帆船的,但是现在他的主意也改变了。
 
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