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旧帖 2021-09-25 04:18:15
Post #1
折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04

折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录

为了保留 历史重要信息 ,开这贴 

https://www.paddlewise.com/topics/foldingkayak/rescue.html

PaddleWise Discussion on Folding Kayak Rescues


If the Aerius to which you refer is a double (Aerius II), then very little
technique is required in most rescue situations (but practice is, of course,
no less than prudent in any case!!):

a) the boat is unlikely to capsize in the first place

b) a swimmer will have little trouble in just climbing back in over the side --
in really terrible conditions climbing back in over the bow or stern (beware
of rudder, if fitted) may be more appropriate, for one thing because it'll
turn the boat into the wind / waves

c) a self rescue in a double folder like the Aerius II is a cinch if there is
already a crew of two, one paddler steadies while the other climbs in; if
the boat is paddled solo, then a steadying hand by another paddler might be
nice

From your description below, the Folbot in question is a single. Most Folbot
models are particularly stable and again very little assistance should be
required for a reentry.

In both cases bailing the boat out is easy due to the relatively large open
cockpit and stability of the hull shape.

Most important:

Make sure that there is sufficient floatation in the boats since there are no
bulkheads. It is good practice to fill as much of the boat as possible if
conditions are so severe that even a folding boat is at all likely to capsize.
The full length sponsons on most folding boats are a good start, but it is
important to reduce the area of free water surface sloshing around in the wide
open spaces of the hull to increase stability of a partially flooded boat in
waves.

(My only involuntary capsize in a folder in 30 years occurred in surf in a
double when we did not heed my own advice about floatation AND did not bother
to pump the bilges, which were partially filled from the trip out: Water pooled
in the bow and "downslope" side of the boat in a breaker and the ensuing broach
became uncontrollable.)

Draining other boats by dragging them over the deck of a folder is the only
thing that I can think of that would have to be approached with some forethought
and care: Drain the boat as much as possible before dragging it out of the water
and try to position the second boat in such a way that it rests over a frame
(sometimes termed rib or cross-frame) to avoid excessive loads on the central
deck stringer.

Folders are ideal rescue vehicles to assist other kayaks due to their stability.

There are exceptions to the above: Feathercraft Khatsalanos behave and perform
very much like most so-called hard shell seakayaks and then the same rules apply
as for the latter, of course.

Chuck, I would suggest that you put in a (VERY) wet mixed practice session with
the folders and the hard shells and just play through different scenarios. Post
pictures!!

:-)))

The joining of forces of folders and non-folders sounds like a great set-up and
is a recipe for fun and safe trips.

Best regards,
Ralph

Ralph C. Hoehn

 
旧帖 2021-09-25 04:19:10
Post #2
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:35:25 +1000
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Folding Kayak Rescues

I reply:

As a Klepper paddler who regularly and almost exclusively keeps company
with the hardshell brigade I would suggest the following points:

# A folding kayaker can rescue herself/himself as efficiently as a
hardshell operator who presumably has a reliable roll. This only occurs if
the folding kayaker regularly practices self rescue techniques. If they
are not willing to demonstrate this, I would not paddle with them.

# This is because the inherent stability of the folding kayaks you
mention, means their paddlers may NOT regularly practice self rescue.

# A reasonably skilled folding kayaker can be an asset on a trip.
Her/his kayak makes a relatively stable platform on which to base assisted
rescues. If you run to a buddy system in your club on the water, it would
pay to have the foldable/hardshell buddies practice assisted rescues. Their
boats can have quite disparate behavior upside down, and/or partially
waterlogged.

# Amen to the advice on reducing volume, either with gear, or floatation
bags.

# You seem to indicate a double Klepper is paddled solo. That's a lot
of kayak to manoeuvre in a blow, even for a strong paddler. I would be
reluctant as a trip leader to let that one through.

# If the foldables don't carry electric pumps, [ actually even if they
do!] I would personally check on the bail-out equipment of the foldables.
Remember, even if they carry floatation bags and gear, these kayaks can
still ship an awful lot of water without a seasock.

# I would be checking on what sort of spraydeck/skirt arrangement they
have, not only for seaworthiness, but also for protection from hypothermia.
Big open cockpits can result in cold kayakers, particularly in cold rain.
[ In my neck of the woods, sunburn to the legs is a worry.]

# As far as group spread goes, foldables are not necessarily the slow
coaches, so in my club at least, there are no on-the-water instructions
peculiar to folding kayakers.

# If your foldables are going to be assembled at put-ins, it might be
helpful for group harmony to suggest their owners arrive early enough to
get their boat ready, especially on day trips. Again, this depends on the
skill of the folding kayaker , ie, their assembly times.

# In the hands of folks who know their boats and skills, I believe
foldables have a significant degree of survivability. I speak for the
Klepper, which I know. I would describe this as 'built-in redundancy'.
The only caveat is big surf, but I guess you get short, steep, breaking
and dumping seas where you are.

Hopes this helps!

Peter Rattenbury, Wollongong, Australia.
 
旧帖 2021-09-25 04:19:34
Post #3
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 13:00:47 +1000
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Foldable Rescues

Hi Ralph H :

I have no particular 'downunder' techniques at self rescue. My practice
is invariably the 'cowboy' rescue. I like its simplicity! No fussing
with paddlefloat or stirrup set ups. The boat flips upright easily, even
unloaded. I can be back in the boat literally in seconds [ with a little
boost of adrenalin!] I am 56 years old, by the way, no spring chicken,
but with a healthy respect for the sea which comes from 45 years plus
mucking about in various boats.
The key is to practice in varying weather and sea conditions and with
varying loads. In a decent sort of sea, which presumably capsizes you in
the first place, the boat is quite a different beast, as you know!
In these realistic conditions, the Klepper is usually half swamped,
with seas washing into the boat. Sprayskirt on, electric pump on, both hands
engaged in paddling into the sea. I have a 800gph pump which provides the
capacity needed for a large volume boat. I carry a one gallon collapsible
bucket, and the standard vertically operated handpump as backup.
I spoke about inbuilt redundancy before. I also practice paddling the
boat totally swamped. This is, the Klepper is manageable [except in surf]
fully 'waterlogged', which has earned it U-boat status in my club! This
implies integrity of sponsons [ the ones that come with the boat!] and
floatation bags. This is a fun thing to do, unless it is freezing! and
you learn what it is like to paddle a boat with about six hundred pounds of
water moving along with you! Interestingly, I have found the Klepper to be
as stable UPSIDE down, as right side up! Again, useful knowledge in
survival. May be other boats have similar characteristics.
There is a helluva difference between practising rescue techniques, be
they a roll up, re-enter and roll, or cowboy , in a decent sort of sea
state, and in the swimming pool like conditions I see lots of folks do. I
also carry surf fins, in the event of having to swim the boat in through
surf, and I tether myself to the boat when paddling and/or sailing solo.
So dominant is hardshell technique that in my club at least, one is NOT
qualified as a sea going kayaker unless one can demonstrate a reliable
roll. This implies a boat of Inuit heritage, ie designed to roll. I
just like the idea of SURVIVING, I don't care how!
Just a quick word on group rescue. The flavor of the month here is for
the rescuer to help right the rescuee's boat; have the rescuee hold on to
her/his boat near the cockpit, rescuer manoevre's her/his boat alongside,
facing the rescuee, and the rescuee then uses the buoyancy/stability of
both boats to swing herself/himself back into her/his cockpit.
I do notice a strange reluctance among hardshell kayakers to engage in
realistic gelcoat-crunching across the deck T rescues and the like!
Hope you find the above interesting. That's my two cents worth. Regards
PeterR
 
旧帖 2021-09-25 04:20:23
Post #4
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04
PaddleWise Discussion on Floatation


The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission.



Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Darian Dunn
Subject: [Paddlewise] Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kayak

Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kayak

I think it is time to buy some additional flotation for my kayak.
On a recent trip I ended up with a boat full of water. At that point I
found the boat had “equal buoyancy”. It didn’t sink but it didn’t
float either.

Can someone recommend where and what bags I should purchase?


Thanks





Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:26:44 -0700
From: "Mattson, Timothy G"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kaya k

I hate sea condoms (also known as sea socks) so I am a "float bag" fanatic
with my folding boat. I used to use standard kayak float bags to fill up
the whole boat (other than the cockpit --- I have to sit somrwhere). It
took six bags to do it, and tying each one of them to the frame was a pain
in the posterior, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I like my boat to
have so much flotation that I can safely paddle it when its flooded with as
much water as it can hold.

Now I get the same float bag coverage with 4 feathercraft bags. I use their
standard large bow and stern bags and their more rectagular shaped mid
section float bags (that's not the official name, but it gets the idea
across). These are very expensive float bags. They work well, however, and
in the final analysis, that whats most important.

Tying them in is still a pain. I am going to experiment with making netting
from nylon webing and creating "webbing bulkheads". These would fit right
in front of my feet and just behind the seat. Water would pass though the
netting, but the float bags and other dry bags wont. I'm all thumbs when
it comes to building anything, but stiching webing into two loose nets
should even fit my meager skills.

- --Tim






Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:10:55 -0700
From: rdiaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kayak


No folding kayak should be paddled without additional flotation. The
sponsons will do exactly what you found out they will do, i.e. keep the
boat afloat and awash. I have a photo in my book of a couple in exactly
that predicament in a double Klepper. I wanted to hammer the message
home, but I still find people who look at the photo and don't realize it
could be them.

Any standard set of air bags from any of several manufacturers will do.
I use Perception standard sea kayak float bags but others are out there
too. You want to fill the under deck area as much as possible. Don't
forget, no matter what float bags you use, to run some straps across the
cross rib at the back of the cockpit in order to prevent the air bag
from floating out in a capsize and do something similar to keep the
flotation bag in the bow from coming out.

You should also add airbags in plastic sea kayaks, bulkheads or no
bulkheads. They are subject to leaks or popping and the supposedly
watertight compartments will then flood in a capsize. Even if the
bulkheads have not shown any sign of leaks, the pressure of a flooded
cockpit could pop the bulkheads and complicate your situation.

ralph diaz









Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:10:28 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Nearly Fatal

Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote:
>
> Exactly what does "built-in floatation" mean. I had always thought that
> statement meant that the boat gunnels would be above the surface. It does
> not. The boat was floating, but it was submerged. Let me reemphasize, it
> did not sink to the bottom, it floated just below the surface. Personally,
> I consider that misleading, but I am sure the manufacturer does not. It
> boils down to interruptation. One possible (cheap) solution would be to add
> 4 tie-downs in the bow and stern to tie in float bags. But how do we (the
> user segment) get them (the manufacturers)to do that?
>
> Debs

To my knowledge the term means that the boat won't sink to Davey Jones
Locker, i.e. it will float in some retrievable fashion at the surface,
more or less. It doesn't mean that it will float with freeboard if the
average weight number of paddlers (single or double) are sitting in it.

So, while it is a correct statement it is misleading in that people can
easily make the assumption that it will float fully flooded with them in
it and still be usable or be able to be pumped. It can't. Cockpits
will be submerged so part or all of the coaming will be underwater and
therefore no amount of pumping could empty it.

All you have to do to establish just how effective built-in flotation is
is just to look at the boat. If the flotation is just thicker walls on
the perimeter of the boat that is filled with something bouyant, you can
see that it would not be sufficient to create freeboard were the boat to
be filled with water.

I have been known to get pretty worked up on this regarding folding
kayaks, none of which will float with sufficient freeboard for emptying
out if the paddlers rely on the built in sponsons alone. I also clearly
stated this in my book, and to underline this, I included a photo of a
couple (who were Twiggy and Woody Allen size) in a double Klepper with
just the sponsons inflated and no flotation bags (page 104). Their boat
had half the cockpit submerged and would have been impossible to empty
with them in it. On second thought, perhaps I should have used Jackie
Gleason size paddlers as they would have displaced more water and of
less weight than the water they replaced; and therefore provide some
more bouyancy :-) But that is counter-intuitive and so thinner people
looked better to illustrate the point.

ralph
--





Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:11:02 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rescuing a swamped Old Town Loon (was Nearly
Fatal)

Bob Volin wrote:
>
> Hi Jan..
> Hope you don't mind my posting this to the list instead of staying
> back-channel.
>
> The situation you describe is indeed difficult. With no one else around,
> I'd imagine that the best course would be as follows.
>
> Right the boat without trying to empty it, since it will be impossible to
> lift in this condition.

There was an earlier postiong that had some outfitter saying to someone
that you cannot self-rescue in a double. I was meaning to answer that
one and perhaps can do so via comments on this post.

First, of all doubles are not difficult to self-rescue in. It has been
done for 50 years in double Kleppers with excellent results if the
paddlers know how.

I would differ with the point about not trying to empty out first. You
can get an amazing amount of water out of a swamped double. Leave it
upside down, and have the heaviest of the two paddlers crawl up on the
stern. This will raise the bow and water will come pouring out.
Another routine is to go under the upside down boat (this is something
that Bill Lozano was big on when Atlantic Kayak Tours was strictly
folding kayaks, mainly doubles). It is a routine borrowed from righting
canoes. The two paddlers get underneath and almost invariably they will
find an air pocket there to breath and relax a few seconds in the
relative quiet (it is called the zone of silence among canoeists). Get
themselves composed and agreed on which way to turn the double right
side up, they first rock it a bit to break some of the water's adhesion
to the inside walls of the kayak, then flip the boat. It will then be
rightside up and largely emptied.

So do try to empty it first. Another trick that works for a quick
partial emptying out, but only in a folding kayak is to take advantage
of the bouyancy of the air sponsons. If you can get the boat up on its
side (this works better in an assisted rescue but doable in a solo
rescue), do so. The boat will rise quite a bit on the lowest sponson
and water will come cascading out of the cockpit.


> With one swimmer (the one who paddles in front)
> holding on to one side of the boat to steady it, the rear-seat paddler
> climbs up and into the boat in the usual way. This might be a little easier
> than usual, since the boat will be very low in the water. Since you use the
> word family, I'll assume we have a child here in addition to two paddlers.
> Next, the child is helped aboard while the first paddler stabilizes from
> outside and the second paddler stabilizes with the paddle and/or helps to
> pull in the child. A paddle float will be VERY handy here! Next, the
> rear-seat paddler stabilizes the boat using the paddle (with float,
> hopefully) while the first paddler comes in.

Generally in a rescue of a double, you want to get the rear person in
first as Bob suggests as they then are in a position to control the
rudder (most doubles are ruddered). This is handy for keeping the boat
pointed into any seas or wind while getting in the second person in.
You can come in from one side as Bob explains while the other person
holds the other side. Or the boat can be held surprisingly steady with
one person hugging the bow, albeit this latter works better in a folding
kayak. The second person can come in the way Bob suggests or crawl in
from the front bow, a longish trip but easier on the rear person's
bracing skills. When crawling along the bow, keep both feet in the water
as this will act as virtual outriggers.


> If there is bailing equipment on board, now's the time to use it.

Bailing out a fully swamped double boat, even one with sizable flotation
bags in the bow and stern, is a difficult task. Try some of the quick
emptying tactics mentioned earlier in this post as it will get rid of at
least a third if not most of the water.

None of this double kayak rescue stuff is new. I did a whole chapter on
it in the FK book specifically because most folding kayaks tend to be
doubles. I have not seen much in other sea kayak manuals about
doubles. They are the threadbare stepchild of the glamourous world of
sea kayaking where people prefer singles and frown on doubles.
 
旧帖 2021-09-25 04:22:18
Post #5
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04
PaddleWise Discussion on Sprayskirts


The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission.


Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:49:33 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt

PJ Rattenbury wrote:

> Hi All, Can anyone offer any real-life comments on how these stack up? I
> believe they have been on the US market for some time now. Comment from
> other Klepper owners would be particularly welcome, as that is my
> application. Re-entry and roll effectiveness is therefore not a factor,
> but how do the skirts and zippers stand up in surf and big water,

I don't know this particular skirt but Kleppers have had zippered
sprayskirts. I don't know if they still do. These were special-order
military ones that cost a bundle because they employed a waterproof
zipper. I never saw a particular advantage in them since it is so easy
to pop a skirt and get at what you need. The downside for the zippered
sprayskirt, in addition to cost, are/were: added weight (if you are
carrying a folding kayak every ounce adds to your burden); susceptible
to getting sand in the zippered teeth; maintenance of the zipper.

ralph






From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:48:51 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt

Pouch currently has a zippered version spraydeck for the double cockpit
(non-military, the Swedish commandos prefer the heavy duty three piece
version: spray deck plus two spray skirts). Individual zippers run from the
center of the front top edge of each funnel to about the knees of the
paddler. The zippers are no more difficult to maintain in this application
than when they are used in dry suits. The weight is close to the traditional
side opening funnel version of the Pouch spray deck. I have not had this
particular spray deck out in dumping surf, but since even the ratty old
button version used to stand up quite well (after a few modifications), I
would not have second thoughts about the strength of the zippers in this
respect.

The upside to a center zippered spray deck / skirt is the ease of boarding
and alighting from the boat. It also allows semi-permanent installation of
the deck for improved surf security. Since you wear the "funnel" over the
PFD, some people worry about taking on water. In my experience this is
minimal.

I agree with Ralph that for some people the advantages of the center zippers
are not necessarily worth the added cost of the expensive zippers. My
personal preference would be for a spray deck with integral coamings that
accept a good spray skirt, but that's from the point of view of use on salt
water. For extended river trips the zipper version certainly has a place.

As to adding unnecessary weight: I don't like lugging boats, whether they be
folded up or assembled, in any case. Why not just use a folding boat cart?
Admittedly there are few with large enough wheels to make them fit for
off-road trips, but they are not difficult to make yourself ... long winter
nights are approaching fast :-).

Ralph C. Hoehn






Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:07:18 -0800
From: "Fred T, CA Kayaker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD

At 11/14/2000 12:48 PM -0500, [Ralph C. Hoehn] wrote:

> Since you wear the "funnel" over the PFD, some people worry about taking
> on water. In my experience this is minimal.

I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What
is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your
PFD or over it?

Fred






From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:53:48 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD

Fred, lest I have opened myself up to misunderstandings: The set-up, to which
I was referring, applied only to double folding boats with a long open
cockpit. A special deck / cover can be stretched over this cockpit. These
covers come in two basic varieties.

1 - A deck with integral funnels (sometimes merely with drawstrings around
the top; sometimes side-opening, closed with snap buttons; sometimes equipped
with front (or side) zippers).

2 - A deck with integral hoops / coaming rings, to which you can attach
"normal" spray skirts.

In both cases the deck is more or less permanentely attached to the cockpit
coaming of the boat, which necessitates some kind of opening arrangement for
the funnels (or separate spray skirts) to allow the paddler to get in and
out. Depending on the permanence of the deck to cockpit coaming, loading and
unloading of gear may also need to be made through these funnels.

You would not want to wear integral funnels under your PFD in case you need
to wet exit (yes, it happens "even" with double folding kayaks). The
likelihood of remaining attached when you would no longer want to be is too
great. Remember that your PFD need to be relatively tight to be fully
effective. Of course, if you use a set-up with detachable individual spray
skirts you're back to your normal wisdom and wear it under your PFD,
preferably cinched tight or rolled into your dry top/suit to provide a near
perfect seal.

I have in the past been in situations where I wore my funnel over the PFD,
but wore a rain jacket over that. While the latter might have impaired my
mobility, had I been forced into the water, I believe that I would have been
able to get out of the boat with no problems at least. Also, having some air
between my body and the rain jacket made for a comparatively comfortable
paddling climate :-).

I hope that I made this point clearer now.

By the way, the original side opening Pouch spray deck version allowed the
paddlers to unbutton completely the left side on both funnels. That in turn
allowed one to roll up the amidships section of the deck and be left with an
open cockpit once again bar the short pieces forward of the bow position and
aft od the stern paddler. In case of rain or cold (as evening approached) or
of excessive sun, the deck could be closed up again in a snap so to speak.
When Pouch dropped this version in favor of something more substantial than
the buttons, old time fans almost stormed the barricades in protest :-).
There is a serious after sales market offering various deck and skirt
arrangements for Pouch and Klepper doubles in Germany.

Best regards,
Ralph C. Hoehn






Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:56:24 -0500
From: John Fereira
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD

At 12:07 PM 11/14/00 -0800, Fred T, CA Kayaker wrote:

> I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What
> is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your
> PFD or over it?

Under it. I wouldn't even consider doing it any other way.






From: Melissa Reese
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:29:14 -0800
Subject: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Though I've seen some people wear their tunnels over their PFDs
(usually the suspender type nylon tunnel - with either neoprene or
nylon deck), I've never figured out why they would do such a thing.

I always wear first my insulating layer(s), then the
sprayskirt/tunnel, then drytop or paddling jacket, then PFD on top of
everything. Or - when wearing a full drysuit - I still wear the PFD
*over* the sprayskirt/tunnel.

Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to
me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the
drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with
keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems
particularly counter-intuitive and awkward.

I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do
otherwise.

Melissa






From: "Whyte, David"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:31:54 +1100

I would agree with Melissa, I can't see any benefit in wearing your tunnel
over the PFD plus I imagine it would let water into the cockpit when rolling
or in heavy surf. Mine is so tight that there is no way I could put it over
my PFD.

David






Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:19:28 +1100
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts

Thankyou for your responses, paddlewisers. There is a certain
subjectivity about zippered skirts it seems. I already use one, but it is
a nylon affair and difficult to make watertight, which prompts me to have a
Brooks skirt made up. Hang the expense.
I do like the ease of access which a centre zip provides as I carry
everything, including water bottle, below deck. Sure it is easy to pop an
unzippered skirt, but I believe the zip does not compromise the integrity
of the skirt, that is, it can be quickly zipped open and shut.
If I had to pop my skirt at sea, it would be a two-handed recovery
operation and quite frankly not something I would like to do in big water
unless it was vital.
I have found another advantage in zippered skirts in my environment, which
often means launching off beaches in surf. I can quickly hop in to the
boat, with the skirt already fitted , zip up, and get paddling while
'unzippered' ! folk are still trying to fit their skirt.
Another advantage, again related to my environment, is that a zippered
skirt enables you to 'open' up the boat in hot conditions. It can be nice
to have a bit of breeze through the cockpit.
I recall a PaddleWise thread about a year ago when there was some query
about the quality of Brooks skirts. I presume they have lifted their game?
Cheers, Peter Rattenbury






Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:39:10 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Melissa Reese wrote:

> Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to
> me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the
> drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with
> keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems
> particularly counter-intuitive and awkward.
>
> I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do
> otherwise.

Years ago, Feathercraft's K-1 had an integral sprayskirt that was sewn
into the deck. You really had to wear it outside your PFD otherwise you
risked getting entrapped. It had a velcro closure that was meant to
help you wet exit. It always seemed scary to me.

Ralph Hoehn mentioned the spraydecks on Pouches (and Kleppers) which are
one large piece covering the big opening of a double (and singles too).
They open(ed) on one side with velcro or snaps. You definitely would
not want THAT under your PFD.

Another reason perhaps for wearing a sprayskirt outside the PFD might be
in the folding kayaks I mentioned above even when the splash covering
consists of a spray deck with two holes to which you attach sprayskirts
(theirs or from the aftermarket). The decks are quite high. A shorter
individual might find that the sprayskirt forces the PFD up above
his/her nose. So for comfort the skirt might be best worn outside the
PFD to prevent this ride-up.

ralph diaz






Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:46:37 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts

PJ Rattenbury wrote:

> Thankyou for your responses, paddlewisers. There is a certain
> subjectivity about zippered skirts it seems. I already use one, but it is
> a nylon affair and difficult to make watertight, which prompts me to have a
> Brooks skirt made up. Hang the expense. [snip]

> I recall a PaddleWise thread about a year ago when there was some query
> about the quality of Brooks skirts. I presume they have lifted their game?

Just bought a nylon tunnel/neo deck skirt from them. Seems comparable to
Snapdragon, with some aspects of their design much better. Mine is not
zippered, however.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR






From: Melissa Reese
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:31:27 -0800

To the two Ralphs:

I understand your points when speaking of the various folding boat
spray deck arrangements - especially concerning the open cockpit
doubles. I should have made it clearer that I was thinking about
non-folding boat arrangements - and even some of the more recent
version folding boats (Feathercraft Khat, K-1, etc.) with their
"modern" coamings and single cockpit openings.

I have however, seen people in "standard coaming" composite boats
wearing their tunnels on the outside, and I still see this as
peculiar - actually defeating the purpose of a potentially very
secure skirt arrangement. I was really wondering why some of these
people in particular would wear their skirts in this way.

Melissa






Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:34:56 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Melissa Reese wrote:

[snip]
> Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to
> me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the
> drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with
> keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems
> particularly counter-intuitive and awkward.
>
> I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do
> otherwise.

As a reformed tunnel-outside paddler, perhaps I can tell of my now-abandoned
evil ways:

The tunnel-outside crowd is seeking maximum ventilation, and is paddling in
waters where only a little slop on the deck is likely.

I quit a few years ago, and will not go back. I agree tunnel inside is
better. If conditions are so mellow I do not need a sprayskirt, I either leave
it off entirely or just loosen it from the coaming. And, yeah, I know the
former can lead to problems if the water gets rough unexpectedly. Gotta get my
thrills somehow!

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR






Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:54:02 -0800
From: "Fred T, CA Kayaker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Melissa and the other posts.
An interesting arrangement on the folding boats. For normal (if there is
such a thing) kayaks I agree on the tunnel under the PFD, but have seen
pictures of folks paddling (may have been Derek Hutchinson or other British
kayaker) with it over their PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a
new skirt there was one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the
inside front of the tunnel. I could see no way of putting anything of much
size into, let alone filling it up and then putting under my PFD. When I
asked the owner of the shop she commented that it was intended to be worn
over the PFD.
Interesting. I look forward to others weighing in on the subject.

Fred






From: "Matt Broze"
Subject: RE:[Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:19:04 -0800

Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD. Sometimes I
do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous. I'm a much better skier than
kayaker. I started skiing when I was two and kayaking not until 29 or 30.
Two weeks after a hernia operation I went skiing again last winter. Needless
to say, I wasn't pounding through the moguls much that day. So I toured some
of the novice runs and kind of got into the swing of things, I tried to ski
like a novice gone out of control but at slow speeds. My skiing partner, a
ways behind, was in stitches but, some folks would try to help me out by
shouting directions to correct my mistakes. One woman kept telling me to
lean further forward so I kept leaning even further and further to the rear
until I was so far back my boots were in the air most of the time and I was
only skiing on my ski tails. I bought my skis and poles at Goodwill or a
garage sale and my 20+ year old boots are haywired together so my equipment
certainly didn't give me away (I don't have any new equipment). Much later I
ran into someone at a party who worked at the ski area and had seen this
run. While he correctly guessed that it was all a put-on on my part he
wasn't totally sure and his buddy was sure I was for real, just a complete
klutz.

Being cantankerous, is not however why I wear my spraydeck outside
sometimes, but I also will continue to do it that way no matter what others
think (at least until the ACA gets a law passed to take away my paddling
license if I don't tuck in my skirt). For me it is a situational thing. If
I'm punching out through surf, paddling in the rain and cold or in
potentially rough weather I put my spraydeck under my PFD for the shingle
effect and the better seal at the waist that it provides that way. Dave is
right about why a paddler in a non-folding kayak might put it outside
though, ventilation. The chimney effect your body heat creates helps keep
one cooled down some when paddling hard on a hot day in relatively calm
waters. I can put out a lot of heat and I want to dump it as fast as I can
without becoming unnecessarily salt covered (by using rotary cooling or
throwing water over myself). Unlike Dave, I almost never paddle without the
spraydeck on though. Even with the spraydeck wide open an Eskimo roll
doesn't flood the cockpit that bad and a roll with a completely open cockpit
would leave me having to pump out. I'm long waisted and like lower cockpits
so the PFD riding up under my arms isn't a problem but it is for many short
waisted folks. I like shoulder straps as they help keep the tube up and open
when I'm using it that way. I like the buckle below the zipper on many PFD's
too, for the same reason, I can unzip them but still have them on if I need
it. The big opening at the top of my spraydeck also often allows me to reach
things inside my cockpit (without a zipper or taking the skirt off) like the
water bottle behind the seat. I'm sure some of you look at "spraydeck
outside" as being a sign saying "unschooled novice" (much like I might view
someone who holds the paddle upside down or flips the power face around to
do a backstroke). Occasionally, I run into someone very experienced who just
likes the way the paddle feels when it is upside down though.
To each his own.

Matt Broze






From: [Joan Spinner]
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:16:48 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

> r. . . PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a new skirt there was
> one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the inside front of the
> tunnel. I could see no way of putting anything of much size into, let alone
> filling it up and then putting under my PFD.

My Snapdragon skirt has a big inside pocket. I carry a hood in it during the
cold months, in case I need it. I can get to the pocket by pulling the tunnel
down, below my PFD. I also keep the wax for my gloves in there to keep it
warm enough to spread when I'm using the gloves that need the tacky wax in
serisouly cold conditions.

Joan Spinner






Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:30:14 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Matt Broze wrote:

> Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD.
> Sometimes I do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous.

Matt Broze cantankerous? Perish the thought! :-)

Actually this post heartens me to brave the scorn of know-it-all
paddlers and wear my sprayskirt over my PFD on warm days in relatively
calm situations as a way of keeping cooler.

Perhaps all PaddleWisers should wear their sprayskirts that way as an
identification sign to fellow subscribers. Of course, real PaddleWise
paddlers are too expert to wear nylon skirts and there is no way they
can get their tight neoprene skirt tunnels over their PFDs.

ralph diaz






Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:13:08 -0500
From: Greg Stamer
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Earlier in this thread someone wrote about water funneling into the kayak
with the skirt worn over the PFD. As luck would have it, there is a
Greenland roll to handle just this task (you didn't think that 30+ rolls
were just for tricks did you ;^). Although the vast majority of Greenland
kayakers that I have met do not wear PFDs, they do wear a sealskin
sprayskirt for summer conditions that has a tall body tube, usually left
open at the top for ventilation. The preferred roll for a capsize with this
garment is to sweep from the stern to the bow in a low brace (Greenland
reverse roll). This roll is very popular in Greenland and is reputed to
allow the least amount of water to enter the kayak with an open skirt. I
would imagine that this would also work well for the
sprayskirt-over-the-PFD crowd. Note that although this roll is similar to a
Steyr, the Steyr is performed as a high brace.

Greg Stamer
Orlando, Florida






From: HTERVORT@...
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:09:06 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts / Over or Under

Somehow, my earlier reply (under "Zippered Skirts"wink seems to have been
truncated and I feel the safety issue at hand is important enough to try
again:

In a message dated 11/14/00 4:24:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, Peter Rattenbury
writes:

> I do like the ease of access which a centre zip provides as I carry
> everything, including water bottle, below deck. Sure it is easy to pop an
> unzippered skirt, but I believe the zip does not compromise the integrity
> of the skirt, that is, it can be quickly zipped open and shut. .
>
> I have found another advantage in zippered skirts in my environment, which
> often means launching off beaches in surf. I can quickly hop in to the
> boat, with the skirt already fitted , zip up, and get paddling while
> 'unzippered' ! folk are still trying to fit their skirt.

The voices of both reason and experience prompt me to caution against these
practices. If you capsize with loose gear inside your cockpit, any object
can wedge itself between your knees, legs or feet and the deck or seat and
prevent you from getting out. The harder you try, the harder the object
wedges and holds you, partially out of the cockpit but unable to get out.
Other gear can migrate beneath you and make the scenario even worse. This is
particularly serious if you capsize in the surf.

(snip and flip)
> If I had to pop my skirt at sea, it would be a two-handed recovery
> operation and quite frankly not something I would like to do in big
> water unless it was vital.

I assume you would still remove the skirt from the coaming rather than try to
open the tunnel. Trying to wet exit by unzipping the tunnel would seem to
make the exit, dumping of water and reentry all harder than if you pop the
skirt.

> Another advantage, again related to my environment, is that a zippered
> skirt enables you to 'open' up the boat in hot conditions. It can be nice
> to have a bit of breeze through the cockpit.

Or you can release the skirt -- in total, or front only, or back only.


Under-the-PFD in So Cal,

Harold
 
旧帖 2021-09-25 04:24:39
Post #6
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04 A big thanks goes to Reinhold Weber for organizing this PaddleWise Discussion on Folding Kayaks VS Hardshell Kayaks for its inclusion on this web page.

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:31:32 MET-1MST
From: "N.D. VAN LOO"
Subject: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate

Hi everyone,

We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a
foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea?

Let us explain:
We are new to kayaking and Paddlewise and considering to buy a kayak
somewhere end of this year. The only experience in kayaking is
limited to a couple of intructions at a local kayak club.

When asking around to some " more experienced" kayakers, they all
told us about their favourite hardshell brands and their moste loved
types. At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and
fell in love immediately. So we started to look around more carefully
at the internet and we read a couple of "standard books" on
seakayaking and kayaking in general.

To cut a long story short, our conclusion (for the moment) is:
We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability.
We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the
Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite.

This conclusion when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite
some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could
you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate
focussed on, stability, preformance, vurnerability to rocks,
maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking
friends had no experience at all with foldables.

We are curious to learn from people that have experience
with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us
why we are so wrong?
Anyone of you is also free to explain why buying a foldable is the
smartest thing to do!

Thanks in Advance,
Diana and Nico-Dirk van Loo
N.D. van Loo, Msc
Dept. Cell Biology
Medical Faculty
Erasmus University Rotterdam
P.O. 1738
3000 DR Rotterdam
The Netherlands





Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate

N.D. VAN LOO wrote:

> We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a
> foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea?

No. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I paddle both
hardshells (I own 3 singles) and a folding double (Folbot) -- probably
nowadays about equal time, but used to be almost exclusively hardshell.

Ralph Diaz will preside as the priest of folders, so I'll just compare my
experience. YMMV

Folding doubles are: slower, roomier, more difficult to pack, more stable,
require more maintenance, and are generally more costly.

My Folbot Greenland II is all of the above except the last,

I like hardshells for ease of maintenance, their speed, and their
sleekness. I like my folder for its comfort, its HUGE cargo space, and the
laid-back feeling of its enormous cockpit. I feel a little nervous when it
works its way over swells, as it creaks and bends, but the things are
durable. If I broke a frame piece or longeron, I believe a field repair
would bne pretty simple. The same is not true for a major hole in a
hardshell.

Most folks decide to re-engineer the seats in folders. I did that on my
Folbot. Folbot supposedly now sells a really good seat. I have, as well,
re-engineered the seats on ALL my singles, because they did not fit well.

You can not miss -- thery are all boats!

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR






Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999
From: Scott Ives
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate

Diana and Nico,

Folders are great boats, I've had four over the past 10 years and currently
have an older Klepper. What your friends are trying to tell you is that the
Klepper is not a really high performance boat. Think an older prop. plane vs.
a jet. Both will get you there, but the trip will be a little choppier and
slower in the folder. (I can hear Ralph disagreeing already!).

Remember that if you stick with kayaking, you will experience a sharp
learning curve. You may find that you desire faster, lighter kayaks soon - and
then you will have already invested $5,000 (probably more now) on this boat. I
would recommend you try some fast hardshell doubles before buying the Klepper.
If you have the $$, it would be great to have one or two fast single hardshells
AND the Klepper. Unfortunately most folks don't have such $$.

The Klepper is a beautiful, functional boat and you won't go wrong buying it
(very easy to resell). But just remember that you might want more speed and
manuverability some day soon. Also, two singles allow you to get away from
your better half every now and then!

- Scott

--
Scott Ives
- avid father, husband, lawyer, photographer, kayaker, jet skier and
Mustang Cobra convertible owner


Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate
From: Ralph Diaz

N.D. VAN LOO wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a
> foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea?

It _is_ a stupid and crazy idea. Why would you want to buy a folding
kayak? It would just put you in a kayak with a long distinguished
pedigree of thousands of expedition accomplishments on ever waterway and
large body of water from the Arctic to Antarctica and everywhere in
between. Who would want to paddle a kayak that is the choice of such
dainty, sissy paddlers as special operations forces the world over
including those in your native Netherlands? Need I go on? It is a
crazy idea, folding kayaks are no good; they are not even kayaks, just,
ugh, "boats". Give it up! :-)

> When asking around to some " more experienced" kayakers, they all
> told us about their favourite hardshell brands and their moste loved
> types. At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and
> fell in love immediately. So we started to look around more carefully
> at the internet and we read a couple of "standard books" on
> seakayaking and kayaking in general.

I know, I know. That is just my point. If experienced paddlers say
that the hardshells are better you should listen to them. I remember
when well before I decided to write a book on folding kayaks, I asked an
author of one of those leading seakayaking books why he had said such
bad things about folding kayaks. He fumbled for an answer and said that
is what "people" say about the boats and it turns out he had never been
in one.

Folding kayaks are much too stable; that makes them boring in heavy seas
and takes away from the enjoyment of having to use all your bracing and
rolling skills to survive. They don't perform well except in rough
conditions. All those major open water crossing over the last 90 years
including the Atlantic were just flukes, meaning exceptions. Yes, they
are extremely vulnerable despite being able to be dropped from
helicopters fully loaded from 20 feet up and crashed against enemy
shores in the blackness of night loaded with a half ton of gear.
Maintenance: the instructions say that you should varnish each year;
those who never varnish like me, will not get the 70 years of life out
of the frames just perhaps 30 years because of our unwise
non-maintenance laziness. And that Klepper, it takes all of 10 minutes
for two people to make; that is so much longer than putting a hardshell
kayak on a roofrack (assuming the rack is always in place), strapping
and tying it down, then untying and removing it from the roof at your
paddling place. You are much better off in a hardshell that doesn't
require assembly at some point. So what if you can't ship the latter
anywhere except by special arrangement and at enormous cost or it
depreciates 50 per cent in value within the first two years. Folding
kayaks go as ordinary baggage everywhere and keep their value far too
well; who would want those things.

> We are curious to learn from people that have experience
> with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us
> why we are so wrong?

You are totally wrong. Afterall it is what people say. :-) :-) :-)

ralph diaz

p.s. Paddlewise, our Dutch friends who asked the questions know I am
doing this tongue-in-cheek.
--





Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 13:43:48 -0400
From: Leander
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate

N.D. VAN LOO wrote:

>We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability.
>We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the
>Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite.

Nice kayaks; we fell in love with folders after paddling them at a symposium
a few years ago, and now own Kleppers, despite the initial higher investment
in folding kayaks versus hardshells. We have a Klepper expedition double,
which my spouse paddles solo, or we paddle double; we had the factory install
the extra center seat position. We also own a Klepper 2000, which I paddle;
the new two-bag system works great for me. We love the wood frames, canvas
deck, sailing potential, and dog-carrying capacity.

To my 2000 was added paddle pockets instead of paddle straps, extra D-rings
and lifeline like the Quattro has, extra keel-strips to make the hull
expedition-quality. I also had Mark Ekhart modify the spray-skirt
attachment so that the Velcro would not be glued to my wood coaming; instead,
that Velcro portion is on a tuck-under sprayskirt piece, to which the main
portion attaches. Mark did a great job on this, and I recommend it to anyone
who wants a quick-remove system without mucking up their coaming.

>... when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite
>some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could
>you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate
>focussed on, stability, preformance, vulnerability to rocks,
>maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking
>friends had no experience at all with foldables.

Their worries are mostly unfounded, as well as worthless since they have never
been in a folding kayak; so all they know is hearsay from others with no
experience. Not very useful.

Our experience in Kleppers and hardshells is that Kleppers are more stable
than hardshells, especially in rough water. Both are capable of capsizing, but
hardshells are easier to capsize. Yes, Kleppers can be rolled; no, we can't
roll them yet (the only sea kayak I can somewhat reliably roll is a Picolo).
Both hardshells and folding kayaks require flotation bags; consider the
air-filled tubes in folding kayaks as balance enhancers instead of flotation
gear and get canoe end-bags to fill the Klepper bow and stern (kayak flotation
bags are too small).

Kleppers are not slow. The 2000 has phenomenal glide. The double moves well
with two paddlers, and moves pretty well with just my spouse paddling(meaning
he keeps up with the pack even when he is out of shape)...until we hit rough
water, then both kayaks shoot ahead of everyone else, as we use forward
strokes and they frantically brace to keep from capsizing.

Maintenance is simple; we wash down our kayaks and all our gear with fresh
water and let them dry. You can leave them assembled or put them in their
bags, giving the option of car-topping like a hardshell, or keeping them
safely inside your vehicle. We haven't varnished the wood or put 303 on the
hull, but we may get to that sometime.

So what about vulnerability to rocks? Well, you can crack and hole a
hardshell, you can scrape or gouge its gel coat; you can also tear or hole a
folding hull. We have never done any of those things, but we tend to baby our
boats, whether hardshell or folding. We don't grind them onto the sand or
rocks in takeoffs and landings, and we try to avoid barnacles. We did,
however, get expedition hulls and extra keel strips because of the rugged
terrain.

Finally, folding and unfolding time. I can assemble the Klepper 2000 or the
Klepper double in 10-15 minutes, taking my time. We can both assemble the
Klepper double in 10-15 minutes, or my spouse can assemble it in 20-30 minutes
slow-southern-time (grin) (sitting in a chair while assembling parts) or 15-20
minutes ambling time. Disassembly is equally easy, at 10 minutes more or less,
depending upon how tired you are.

>We are curious to learn from people that have experience
>with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us
>why we are so wrong?

You're wrong to let people who know nothing about folders talk you out of
buying what you really want. We have never regretted our decision of going
with Klepper. I did own a Feathercraft Khatsalano-S for awhile, which is a
lovely craft, but takes far longer to assemble than I am willing to spend;
15 minutes is my maximum tolerance for assembly time.

>Anyone of you is also free to explain why buying a foldable is the
>smartest thing to do!

You will love it. One recommendation, however, is do not get the Klepper
paddles. Those paddles are awful, and the $90 per pair (two pair in a double)
can be spent on better paddles, probably in the 230-250cm range, depending on
who is in front/back, and how tall you are. Try before you buy. Initial
investment is higher than for most doubles, but you will never need another
kayak; you might add a sail rig in the future, then have a folding
kayak/sailboat. If you plan to do that, then I suggest the newer larger
sailing rudder assembly. Also, on a double, sometimes a rudder is helpful in
cross-wind/current, but I would recommend learning to handle those things
without a rudder, then you can use it when you feel lazy (without being
endangered if it breaks, as all rudders are prone to do eventually).

Hope this has helped. Ralph Diaz can tell you a lot more, and also advise you
about the other folding kayaks. You might want to read his book "The Complete
Folding Kayaker", which has 1994 prices, and doesn't have boats new since
then, but the information is still quite valuable and valid. Hopefully, he'll
be using his "Folding Kayaker Newsletter" articles to aid writing an updated
second edition for his book...how about it Ralph...is in the works yet?

Regards,
Leander





From: Peter Osman
Subject: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate and the Klepper expedition
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999

As a novice kayaker I was faced with a similar decision 6 months ago and
decided to hire hardshells for use in quiet water and to buy a Klepper
Aerius Expedition foldable for use at sea. Before the purchase I read
Ralph's book cover to cover. Storability, transportability, safety, and the
joy/ease of assembly were paramount in the decision. Some observations:

Assembly:- It's very easy to put together, taking 1/2 to 3/4 hour
both to assemble and to disassemble including adding:- flotation, compass,
rudder, daytrip luggage, packing/unpacking the bags, drying the wooden
components. Basic assembly with no accessories takes 15-20 minutes without
rushing. Assembly is much more pleasant on grass than on sand. Strategic
packing with two towels speeds packing the wooden components, which
otherwise tend to tip about. I find assembly a very pleasant start to
paddling but not everyone may feel this way.

Performance:- The Klepper Aerius Expedition seems slower than about
half the hardshell sea kayaks I come across except in moderate to heavy seas
when it tends to keep up or overtake. (A hardshell owner in turbulent water
once shouted behind me "look at that Klepper go" - it was great). If your
group paddles fast in calm water you may struggle to keep up. The Klepper
Aerius Expedition needs a fair bit of strength to maintain its top speed
over long periods.

Safety:- The Klepper Aerius is well known for its outstanding
stability and seaworthiness. My local sea kayak club normally require the
ability to eskimo roll a hardshell for higher grade trips. However, they are
flexible and will probably allow an exemption for Aerius users. Clearly the
need for good bracing and self rescue skills is still essential.

Maintenance:- Allow about 1/2 an hour cleaning and stowage time at
home (mainly rinsing with fresh water) and about 1 or 2 days to dry it out
before packing it away. To dry the skin I support it on towels over 4
sawhorses under a veranda. Regular use of Klepper wax/303 UV protectant for
the hull and fittings (particularly the seam which folds into the coaming
groove) is highly desirable but only takes a few minutes. I'm also using 303
fabricguard on the deck on the advice of a friend who has used it regularly
on his Klepper to protect against UV. Mild soap/detergent seems to remove
the expensive 303 fabricguard so I'm now using fresh water only to clean the
deck.

I've not regretted the decision although its about the most expensive kayak
I've heard of. When trying to keep up with faster paddlers I'm less than
thankful. When in roughish water I'm very thankful. Good luck, Petero.










From: [Ralph Diaz]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] kayak reviews and advice needed

> dmccarty@... wrote:
>
> I have a Looksha IV and my wife has the IVs. Both are kevlar layups.
> When we started looking into sea kayaks we started with plastic but after
> much hmmming and hawing we slowing escalated to kevlar. One reason was
> the limited lifetime on the plastic boats. I have taken out rental plastic
> boats that suffered greatly from oil caning. They all suffered from one
> degree or another. I just could not stand the thought of that happening to
> my boat. It seemed to me that I was going to spend $2400 on two boats and
> within a very short number of years I would be looking for a new boat. That
> was to expensive for me. Hopefully others will comment on my impressions
> of plastic boats.
>
> Another was weight.

It is funny how polyethylene kayaks have this reputation for toughness
that lures people into buying them (in addition to cheaper cost) but in
point of fact they are not as durable as fiberglass or kevlar
composites. Plastic boats suffer from: oilcanning from being on
roofracks or resting uneveningly on a beach; scars and strands of
plastic that hang from the bottom from dragging them around that also
slows them down on the water; and the relatively short lifespan expected
of them before they get too brittle to repair easily are all points that
get lost in the illusion of indestructability. Then there is the weight
factor. They weigh a ton. Take a look at Sea Kayaker review of
kayaks. The manufacturer says his boat weighs 55 lb. SK mag puts it on
the scale and it is 66 lb.!!! And, at least in some of the plastic
boats, a lot of the weight for some reason (the way the molds work,
whatever) is at the ends; so when you pick one up and you don't have it
perfectly horizontal, you start getting a pendulum effect making the
carry even more difficult in addition to sheer weight.

While kevlar is expensive, you can certainly shop around. Some
companies offer their kevlar and fiberglass boats at a lot cheaper price
than others. Take SEDA for example. Prices on them tend to run as much
as $500 cheaper than their counterparts coming from other
manufacturers. There may be a model from SEDA that suits you. Then
there is Dan McCarthy's further comment (which I snipped) about going
around to demo days and symposiums. Often these exhibits offer boats at
10-20% off list price which could make a difference or help you buy a
nice paddle. Then, if you can wait until the end of the season, many
kayak stores offer significant end of season sales to reduce their
inventory and later bring in next year's models. I know around here in
the NY area, some of the shops drop prices $800 or more on a $2,000 or
so boat, perhaps not of the greatest colors but a nice savings. Also,
some outfitters do sell off parts of their fleet at the end of the
season and you can pick up a good fiberglass boat then at pretty close
to list price.

Unfortunately, if you are looking for a folding kayak, there are seldom
any end of season sales as people will still buy them in winter for
travel to warmer climes and dealers often are not stuck with just a
local market pool as they can ship 'em by UPS anywhere. Only Folbot
offers any such sales in the Fall.

ralph diaz
--






Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:47:16 -0700
From: "Mattson, Timothy G"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] kayak reviews and advice needed

It is funny how polyethylene kayaks have this reputation for
toughness that lures people into buying them (in addition to cheaper cost)
but in point of fact they are not as durable as fiberglass or kevlar
composites.

Plastic boats don't last as long, but they are tough. I hit rocks in my
plastic boat and get a little scratch. Due to the flex in the material,
though, I don't ge a depressing gash as I would wiith my folding boat or my
Kevlar boat.

Also, there is the psychological factor associated with the cost. I paid
around $900 for my Plastic Sea Lion. So it just doesn't bug me as much when
I slam into a barnicle covered rock in that boat as opposed to my $3800
Khatsalano.

I think its this psychological factor that has earned plastic boats their
tough reputation. They are considered tougher because their owners are more
willing to abuse them around rocks. I will always keep a ready-to-abuse
plastic boat in my fleet so when I know I'm going to bash into lots of rocks
-- either in shallow rivers or rugged coast lines -- I have a boat to use
without suffering mental anguish.

--Tim " proud owner of a two ton plastic Sea Lion"









Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:43:21 -0700
From: [Ralph Diaz]
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Proud to Paddle Plastic

Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote:
>
> You are not alone!
>
> Debbie Reeves
> Owner of fiberglass, wood, and yes, plastic kayaks

Plastic is just fine and don't ever let anyone look down on you for what
you paddle. One of the fastest and most reliable paddlers I ever met
paddled a Chinook. He would go to symposiums, eye and try out all the
fiberglass while considering what he might upgrade to one day. But for
years he stayed with that Chinook and remained the best paddler around.
The paddler maketh the boat not the boat maketh the paddler.

There are however a lot of shortcomings to plastic that can't be
overlooked:

Weight--they tend to be about 8 to 10 pounds heavier than equivalent
fiberglass.

Portability--with lots of their weight at their very ends, plastic boats
are harder to carry as a see-saw effect starts up if you get 'em
slightly off balance in the carry.

Deformity--they deform terribly to affect handling and speed. After a
year no two kayaks of the same model will handle the same because of
this.

Longevity--they really don't last long, certainly no where near the
useful life of a fiberglass kayak.

Repairs--generally more difficult than in fiberglass.

Leaky bulkheads--no matter what a manufacturer claims, bulkheads all
leak, some more than others, but all leak.

So I don't see the choice as a matter of prestige but rather
practicality. Fiberglass gives you more than image.

Plastic kayaks have an advantage in price and in there lies a danger.
It is so easy to get one as an entry boat from a department store and go
paddle forth without any knowledge of airbags, self-rescue, reading sea
conditions etc. Sooner or later, we are going to start seeing
statistics catch up to these paddlers and it won't be pretty.

ralph diaz
--









Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:48:36 -0700
From: [Ralph Diaz]
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] experience with folding seakayaks

Hendrik Maroske wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am looking for a folding seakayak that is in handling and speed
> > comparable to hardshell boats. Are there people on this list with
> > hands on experience in boats like the Feathercraft K1 or
> > Khatsalano, or the longer single seat Nautiraids (greenlander 500).
> > Or may be other alternatives?
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Merijn
> >

> Hmmm, since nobody answered this, I take this as my turn:
>
> having built a few folding aluminum baidarkas, I don't think they
> were in any respect similar to harsdhell boats. Although I wanted
> each kayak to be comparable with hardshell kayaks and took
> some pain to achive the best results, neither rigidity, nor
> speed under paddle were as good.

I am not certain what is the situation with the boats that Hendrik has
hand crafted but there are certainly some commercially available folding
kayaks that are no slouches in the speed department. The Feathercraft
Khatsalano is generally recognized as a very fast boat with less than a
half dozen non-racing commercially available hardshells being faster.
Stepping down from the Khatsalano, the Feathercraft K-1 and some of the
Nautiraids are certainly as fast as a lot of other hardshells.

I think a lot of the image regarding folding kayak speed is one of
thinking in terms of clunky doubles paddled by occasional paddlers in
comparison to solo paddlers in hardshells. When it comes to the
singles, the folding kayaks can be quite fast, length for length, with
hardshells.

> Anyway, you might want to look at something narrow and rigid;
> I never saw anything in the market that was foldable and would
> match at least my selfbuilts with regard to rigidity. They only
> _do_ assemble a lot easier.

I haven't seen these hand crafted folding kayaks but I can't imagine
anything stiffer than the Nautiraid singles. If you pick one up by one
end and shake it up and down, there is virtually no flex at all...i.e.
they are incredibly rigid; their frames use more cross-ribs and
stringers than do other folding kayaks and their external sponsons add
lots of rigidity. Feathercrafts have a bit more flex to them. Folbots
an incredible amount of flex.

> One thing to consider is handling during rescue (-training).
> I haven't seen any folding kayak that would match my desires in
> this case. So I have equipped my recent folder with retractable
> compass and hatchcover-mounted pump in order to survive at
> least a TX-style rescue; also, I have lowered the deck beam to
> help with rolling.

The commercially available folding kayaks are regularly used in TX
rescues with no damage; I've seen it done several times this summer with
nothing happening by way of damage. I suppose if the boats were not
carrying airbags to reduce the amount of water that gets inside in a
capsize than perhaps some damage may result to deck bars, BUT no one
should ever venture out in any folding kayak (even if using a sea sock)
without air flotation bags over and above the sponsons that are normally
built in. The same would be true for any hardshell that does not have
bulkheads and for polyethylene kayaks whose bulkheads are generally
suspect and prone to leak and pop if flooded in a capsize.

The deck bars on folding kayaks can take punishment. I once had a very
heavy fellow trip over while near my K-Light on dry land. He fell flat
with all his weight on the bow deck right between two crossribs: unlike
when sitting in water, the boat had no where to sink into to absorb the
punishment (as it might in a TX rescue). The result: The top deck bar
was ever so slightly bent at the point where it connected to another bar
but did not need replacing or fixing. I shudder to think what would
have happened with the deck of a kevlar boat.

As for rolling, some folding kayaks roll okay; perhaps not as well as
many hardshells, but they can be rolled. Ken Fink reports that he
regularly teaches people how to roll using the K-Light. And I have
never seen anyone who does have a good roll fail when getting into the
single folding kayaks from Feathercraft, Nautiraid and Klepper. At
worse a good roller cannot do his full array of rolls as he might in his
own boat or slimmer boats but that also would be the case with some of
the hardshells too, i.e. it would be difficult to do every type of roll
in every hardshell single.

BTW, I saw a double Klepper rolled the other day. I had heard of people
doing it but two guys at the Boathouse decided to give it a try. They
failed the first time; swam the Klepper back to the dock. Got their
coordination straightened out and went out and did two effortless rolls
in a row.

ralph diaz
--









Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 11:22:53 -0700
From: Shawn W. Baker
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Perfect Boat is Plastic!

> As a longtime owner of plastic and hopeful upgrader to something else, I would
> be interested in further comments along this thread on the relative merits
> (durability, speed, whatever) of kevlar, carbon composites, and wood. Any
> first-hand experience out there across those lines?

Plastic is generally more resistant to abrasion and very large impacts.
Fiberglass, carbon, kevlar, Spectra and wood/composite boats are
generally lighter and stiffer.

For example, a design that might weight 70 lbs. in plastic would weigh
50-55 lbs. in glass, 45-50 lbs. in wood, and 40-45 lbs. in Kevlar.
Composite layups can vary according to how heavily they are
designed--there are super-light boats that are easy to carry, but very
fragile, and heavyweight glass boats that are probably tougher than most
plastic boats.

Colored gelcoats in composite boats are much more vibrant and glossy
than typical rotomolded or blowmolded PE boats. Wood boats are
downright gorgeous-- admittedly, though, I'm highly biased in that
direction.

Some plastic boats are designed somewhat around ease of molding. This
is not always the case, but you'll probably notice a few more little
intricacies of design in composite boats. Coleman canoes are an extreme
example of boats designed for ease of manufacture and shipping, at the
expense of performance.

Composite boats are easier to modify and repair. Nothing really sticks
to polyethylene.

Wood kayaks, built well by someone else, are very, very expensive. Wood
boats built by the owner are dirt cheap, but take a considerable
labor/time investment, and some modest woodworking tools are required.

Email me if you have any particular questions about wood kayaks.

Happy deciding!
Shawn

____©/______
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Everything can be found at sea according to the spirit of your quest"
-Joseph Conrad






Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 12:22:53 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (Paddlewise) Plastic is Perfect!????????????????
not!

> I however revert to the "ram it full speed up the beach to keep my feet
> dry approach" once I have gotten a couple of scratches in the gelcoat
> anyhow.

If you are of the ram-the-beach school, there is nothing quite like a
Folbot folding kayak for doing this. The bow and stern have a thick
curved aluminum rail protecting them that runs from the tip of the boat
and down and under to part way along the keel. The marks they make on
sand and any rocks they hit looks like they were made by a plowshare.

I often wonder how a Folbot would do for playing kayak polo against
plastic and fiberglass boats. While Folbots don't turn that well and so
would lack in agility, they would make a mash of any hardshell they hit
with their killer ramming ends. I can see a Folbot on a kayak polo team
acting like those legendary enforcers that the Boston Celtics use to
employ to break arms and legs of opposing team stars.

ralph diaz





Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:45:41 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Perfect Boat is Plastic! Now Flex

Kirk Olsen wrote:
>
> hmm, time to figure out how to trade hats. My paddling choices include
> a skin/frame baidarka, and carbon fiber race surf ski.
>
> Skin/frame boats flex very differently than plastic boats.
> With a skin/frame boat the boat will bend as it goes over waves. To me
> this was the most dramatic the day I paddled with a friend, he was paddling
> my VCP Pintail ('glass british heavy). We were paddling into a headwind with
> 1 foot chop. The PinTail was riding up over each wave and crashing off the
> top of each wave. My baidarka was cruising straight forward with the
> waves traveling along the gunwales. With the boat flexing as it adjusted to
> each oncoming wave. The baidarka was much faster than the pintail headed
> into the waves.
>
> My current take on this is a rigid boat is going to be the fastest on a
> flat water course - no flexing induced by the non-existant waves. In
> waves I think a skin/frame boat will be faster because it adjusts to each
> wave and less forward momentum is lost to the boat coming off of one wave
> and pounding down off of the back of the wave.

I am not certain it has to do with you observed but rather with some
other phenomena. Back about 3 years ago, one of my readers, a physicist
of some renown with some 150 patents to his name and voted to all kinds
of lists such as Industry Week's Top 50 R&D Stars To Watch, etc., took a
crack at it in an article for my newsletter. It is quite a detailed
article that I would share with anyone who asks via back channels. The
key point he makes is cited below in an excerpt. The phenomenon is
phrased in terms of folding kayaks but would apply equally as well to
any skin kayak such as Kirk's.

>From Folding Kayaker Sept/Oct 1996, pp. 1-5
Scientific Look At Rough Water Drag
For Folding Kayaks Vs. Hard-Shells

"Flexible Skin In Action
In chaotic seas, a folding kayak^Òs skin sections defined by its
stringers and crossribs pump in and out like a drum head and destabilize
laminar flow of water along the surface of the kayak (Handbook of Fluid
Dynamics, ibid, page 11-30). The vibrating skin of a folding kayak is
extremely effective in pushing the critical Reynolds number of the drag
crisis down to lower Reynolds numbers. There also may be a small
geometric effect from the less regular surface generated by the framing
effect of stringers and cross ribs on the flexible-skin analogous to
dimpling on a golf ball.
This ^Ódimpling^Ô of the surface of the flexible-skin kayak also tends to
lower the critical Reynolds number of the drag crisis. However, because
of the large lateral size and small height of such ^Ódimples^Ô on a
folding kayak, the destabilization effect due to this static morphology
of the kayak skin is much less than for the dimpled golf ball. Of the
two effects, we believe that the dynamic in-and-out motion of skin
sections of the flexible skin kayak is the dominant one that causes the
critical Reynolds number of the drag crisis to fall. Such in-and-out
motion occurs readily in rough chaotic waters and is a common phenomenon
that many of you have often exclaimed about, i.e. the feel of the water
as it passes along the skin.
For the drag crisis regime to cause a difference in drag between
hard-shell and flexible-skin kayaks, the Reynolds number associated with
kayak motion through water must be near the drag crisis regime. By one
of those quirks of nature, it is."

By now I am certain James Lofton is scratching his head saying to
himself "What! My little ole Folbot is doing all that s**t?" Kinda my
reaction too. :-) Anyway it is good reading.

happy paddling,

ralph diaz
 
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Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04
PaddleWise Discussion on Choosing a double or single folding kayak


The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission.


From: "Dr. Peter Rand"
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 1:19 AM
Subject: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?

Just put a down payment on a folding kayak at a local boat show - the Klepper
Aerius expedition (I was shocked that the Klepper rep had never heard of
Ralph :-)

I was planning to get a single, since my girlfriend never expressed the
slightest interest in joining me for outings, but as I was filling out the
paperwork she got visibly nervous and said well, maybe she would like to
join me for outings after all. Oops...

I need some advice! There are so many pros and cons to this issue. If I get
the double, I'm sure I'll be using it frequently as a single, if I get a
single, my girlfriend won't be able to join me for the occasional outing.
(At least Ralph says "solo paddling is fine" in the Aerius II). The double
is 8 kilos heavier than the single.

Any thoughts (especially from couples)?

Peter






Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:48:52 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?

You need advice about your relationship, not about boats. Anybody who had not
expressed much interest in boating (even though you are avowedly avid), UNTIL
confronted by a tangible threat to her control over you is more interested in
managing the relationship than she is in boating.

Buy the double. Your next girlfriend will be someone you meet on the water
during the "detachment" phase of your current relationship. The two of you
will love the Aerius, intensify your enamoration within it, and the first child
will no doubt be named "Aerius."

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
no Dear Abby, but been there, done that!







From: [Frank Fichtmüller]
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:44:42 +0100

Hi, Peter -

coming into our new location I had a double Klepper and happily used it
together with my wife. She just liked being taken around, paddling when *she*
wanted. After (1) some occasional quarreling (mostly coordination of strokes)
and - (2) besides this - myself most time being out without my wife I decides
to buy a used single, too. And, since we have three kids (15/11/6 then) I had
a 2nd single for my wife. So everything was there to paddle together -
theoretically.

For a while we still went paddling together - I liked it very much. But as my
physical condition got more and more improved by practicing when I had some
time (and my wife couldnt or wouldnt go) it became the longer the more
frustrating for my wife. So now she is jogging (and says, she likes it much
more to move herself this way), our kids interests have changed (19/15/11 now)
and most time I am out alone.

The double some time ago has been sold (but there is a new - really old from
the 50ies - one waiting to be restored) and the 2nd single one will be sold
soon.

So what I learned: Murphys law ("What can go wrong will go wrong."wink works.
Specially when you are not too sensitive as I seemed to have been considering
what my wife really needed. - And it takes time to talk, to watch, lots of
patience and waiting for one or the other if you really want to reach the same
goal with your partner. And besides this: Interests may change, which
(sometimes painfully) has to be respected.

So after all I really wouldnt know to tell you what to do - except being
sensitive towards what she really wants (paddle or spend some time near to you
in a boat?) and be *very* patient. I´m not sure whether this helps - have a
try.

Best to both of you,

Frank






From: "Glenn Stauffer"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:36:03 -0500

Get the single. When your girlfriend feels like she might want to go along,
rent a boat for her until she actually shows that she enjoys kayaking. I
made the mistake of buying a bike once for a girlfriend who expressed
interest after a long period of not being interested. That girlfriend is
long gone and the bike still hangs from the rafters - it being too small for
me or any companion that followed. Her interest in riding didn't get past
the first ride with significant hills.

There is nothing worse than paddling in a double anything with someone who
really doesn't enjoy it. That is a sure way to stress any relationship - my
ex-wife still brings up the fact that we never could manage paddling a canoe
together which should have told us we probably couldn't manage a marriage
together. Of course, buying a double kayak and testing the relationship
thoroughly before marriage is a lot less stress and cheaper than a divorce.

Girlfriends come and girlfriends go, but a good kayak is forever...






From: [Sandy Kramer]
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:06:21 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?

Yeah, don't break up with the girlfriend. All that money for a double that
you will probably use solo most of the time. There's an art to paddling
double. You have to keep in synch so your paddles aren't clacking. Easier
to paddle double with a rudder otherwise you go round and round in circles
(blush).

There was an article in Sea Kayaker about three (?) years ago on the cons of
paddling double. Divorce, for example. Well, it wasn't quite that bad, but
many couples have ended up buying two singles.

Sandy Kramer (single!)






From: "Philip Torrens"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 10:13:53 PST

The question was whether to buy single kayaks or a double kayak. And the
answer is: Yes. Buy both.
I do most of my touring either solo or with others who want to paddle their
own canoe (so to speak). So I have a solo for these trips.
My wife is a fair-weather camper/kayaker, who also has some back problems,
which means she cannot paddle continuously. Our double allows me to keep us
both moving along, gondolier-style, even when she's taking a break from
paddling. Result: no frustration on her part that I'm moving too fast or on
mine that she's lagging behind. The double is also safer for the two of us:
we cannot get separated, it's inherently more stable, and I can brace for
both of us in beam seas (you can raft two singles up, but you cannot make
progress this way, and I still don't think they'd be as stable as an
aggressively braced double).
One change I'm making as a result of reading "Deep Trouble" and comments
from Matt B. on Paddlewise is outfitting both cockpits of the double with
seasocks; Matt makes the point that the floodable volume of most double
cockpits means the kayak would float too low in the water to have much
chance of pumping out without reswamping. (I long ago rigged the double with
holders for paddlefloats behind both cockpits and I carry two paddlefloats,
two pumps, and a stirrup to allow my wife to step-ladder back into the
boat.) Thanks Matt, pointing out this vital factor with doubles.

Philip Torrens
N49°16' W123°06'






From: "jalparker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:56:02 -0500

We have thousands of miles on two tandem bicycles, and just started paddling
a tandem kayak last year. Same concept..... teamwork! Once you get it down,
it's great. You won't have to keep turning around to pick her up, if you
happen to be the stronger paddler. And, in either case, it's like having two
motors on your bike or in your kayak. We're almost fifty, and we get a kick
out of putting a twenty-five year old hammerhead away on the tandem bike! We
haven't done a lot of group kayak outings yet, but I have a feeling that the
same can apply there as well. When paddling in sync, we move! Most certainly
faster than our combined effort in singles.

However, there is a saying with tandem bicycles. A tandem will drive your
relationship in whatever direction it was already headed. For us, it has
been positive, kayak and bicycles. I remember Dana Decker saying that the
only reason he considered selling us the tandem kayak, was because we were
tandem cyclists. He had not had good experiences with other couples. So
maybe we're just weird! Anyway, good luck in your decision process.

Al (& Heidi) Parker
Tallahassee, FL

Prijon Odyssee
Cannondale MT3000
Cannondale RT1000






From: "Jim Bielecki"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling a Double Folder Solo
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:22:14 -0500

> From: "Dr. Peter Rand"
>
> In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine"
> with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I
> can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all
> seem to have movable seats. Is this right?
>
> For those who regularly paddle a double on their own, I'd like to hear
> your thoughts.

I have both a Klepper Aerius II and a Klepper Aerius 2000 mini-single. The
A-II with solo seat was purchased brand new in 1990, well before Klepper
made the movable seat a standard feature. I bought a used Aerius
2000 last year. As to the boat I pick for solo paddling, it all depends on
the type of paddling I wish to do. The A-II excels in big water, meaning
Lake Superior, Lake Huron and Lake Michigan, and its cargo capacity can't be
beat for times when I feel like going on a solo camping trip. The Aerius
2000 sees most of its use on the hundreds of small inland lakes that dot the
northern Michigan landscape. I love its one bag portability, light weight,
speed and glide. I'm fortunate to have a choice and, believe it or not,
can't imagine going back to one boat. But if push came to shove, I'd sell
the Aerius 2000 and keep the A-II. The double has so much versatility and
just does too many things for me to ever consider selling it.

Jim Bielecki






Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:49:42 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend?

Dr. Peter Rand wrote:

> Thanks to everybody who wrote me with comments and suggestions. It seems the
> more performance-oriented paddlers would favor a single, while sociable paddlers
> recommend a double. More affluent paddlers recommend I get two singles or a
> single and a double, and one person recommended I get a new girlfriend.

I read all the suggestions with amusement. I was surprised to see that
no one suggested getting a _second_ girlfriend, which is not exactly as
facetious as it may sound. I know paddlers who have companion paddlers
of the opposite sex with no sex involved just sea kayaking.

> I guess I tend to fall more in the group of sociable paddlers, since I have
> no athletic ambitions with the kayak, but rather hope to get out in nature,
> enjoy the good weather, have picnics, etc. I live in Vienna, Austria, and the
> Danube river is only about 10 minutes away by subway. Within an hour's drive
> there are also numerous lakes and other rivers. With the help of the kayak I
> hope to discover and enjoy these various bodies of water. Mostly alone, but
> occasionally with my girlfriend or a larger touring group.

Doctor, I have studied your case carefully, run some clinical tests and
sought some outside opinion as well. The Klepper double would be
perfect for you since you are not out to win any races when paddling
solo and you do hope that your girlfriend will join you sometimes or
often, whatever the dice read.

Paddling doubles is an interesting litmus test of a person or 2 persons
feelings toward society and their own place in it. A person who wishes
to share experiences and enthusiasm with others and who feels that
helping others is a higher calling than his/her own self-interest is
likely to take to a double like a duck to water. A person who feels
everybody has to watch out for themselves and is responsible for
themselves and who feels that what counts in the world is himself or
herself, will find a double the equivalent of floating on a raft
resembling the bed of nails favored by Indian fakirs. I confess that
those lines are a little overdrawn but I like to get ahead of myself, at
times, and April 1 is not too far off.

Paul Theroux, a subscriber to my newsletter, and who was kind enough to
write the glowing foreword to my book, believes people who paddle
doubles should be nominated for sainthood. Which may be true. On page
17 of the book there's a photo of Pope John Paul II in the front seat of
a double during his seminarian days back in Poland. Who doubts that when
our present pontiff meets his maker that he will not be rushed through
the sainting process to a place in the Pantheon of Saints (I forget the
term for the hallow halls of sainthood, pantheon sounds nice).

Doctor, your title seems to suggest that you are a giver, as most in the
medical profession are, and not a taker, which might be the case were
your name followed by Esq. (will my lawyer friends ever forgive me;
probably yes; lawyers have few friends and have to keep every one they
have; it's usually just one). So the double suits you. But wait a
minute! What if the Dr. title refers to your being a Doctor of Law!
Maybe you better not paddle at all. :-)

> In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine"
> with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I
> can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all seem
> to have movable seats. Is this right?

Yes, it is absolutely right. The seat change made two or so years ago
allows you some adjustment to a solo position.

My own take on doubles:

I think paddling in a double with someone you love (like a lover, spouse
or child) or some one you like and admire, say a good friend, is a
wonderful experience unlike anything else you can do on earth. You are
literally in the same boat to share what you see and not find that the
other person has drifted off in another single when you spot an otter's
head peeking up at you and you can get their attention to marvel with
you. It even works with someone you may not like all that much. I
traveled some 150 miles in a double with a person with whom I have
little in common and never have socialized with or anything. It did not
bring us any closer together but it was a rewarding experience which I
still cherish to this day. For a few days we were a team, working out
our course, our stopping places, keeping ourselves safe in busy waters
by spotting dangers looming down on us or lurking out of the corner of
one eye.

I see some couples who I know love each other and who share a passion
for seakayaking but who are in singles. While I know singles offer
their own reward, I am saddened because I know that in not having a
double in their fleet they are missing some opportunities to regenerate
love and reaffirm the spirit of sharing that underlies it.

ralph diaz
--






Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:33:53 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a Double

Matt Broze wrote:
>
>> Ralph wrote:
>>
>> I see some couples who I know love each other and who share a passion
>> for seakayaking but who are in singles. While I know singles offer
>> their own reward, I am saddened because I know that in not having a
>> double in their fleet they are missing some opportunities to regenerate
>> love and reaffirm the spirit of sharing that underlies it.
>
> I see this very differently. It is my view that the couples who do best in a
> double are the ones who have a captain/crew relationship where one person
> makes all the decisions and the other always goes along. Communicating with
> your partner is also much more difficult in the fore and aft position of a
> double rather than with a side by side position (where you can turn to face
> each other) than is possible paddling two singles. And you don't hate the
> bow paddler for throwing water back in your face with their paddle with
> every other stroke or for stopping and starting all the time making it hard
> to keep your paddle in sync with theirs. I guess I'd rather have a partner
> than a master or a slave.
> I got stuck in a double for three weeks once; how I ached for a single.
> I realized why they were called "divorce machines" after that. Before I
> thought it was just a joke.

Owwww! Matt, you are a bigger curmudgeon than I am!

My SO and I paddle a double now and then (mostly on multi-day trips in cool
places), and we also paddle singles (mostly on day trips). We like both ways,
but there is a dimension to the double which is sort of like Ralph's
description, and not much like Matt's. I liken it to ballroom dancing, in
which the partners move their bodies and feet in tune together, one "leading,"
to be sure, but both mutually and subtly feeding cues to each other. We also
enjoy sharing food and conversation in the double. For us, the double allows
more intimacy, and we can talk in lower tones than if we are in separate
singles.

Sure enough, our paddles clack sometimes when the stern stroker (me,
invariably) does not pay attention to the varying cadence of the bow paddler.
I regard that as my fault, mainly, and always apologize for the error. In
turn, the rudder guy (me) sometimes sends the bow paddler where she does not
want to go. She retaliates by directing more of her paddlesplash at my face
than usual!! But, these elements are just spice in the pudding, so to speak.
We are both gregarious, and both a little headstrong, two qualities which work
in opposition in a double, to some extent. But, it makes the double
interesting.

And, yes, I did divorce the woman I first paddled a double with some 30 years
ago, but the incompatibility in the canoe was a symptom of a larger
incompatibility in our lives. Even though she and I are friends yet today, we
never could ballroom dance together successfully. Maybe that should be the
test of whether couples should share a double kayak!

Matt, do you dance?

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR






From: "Matt Broze"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a double
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:44:10 -0800

Dave Kruger wrote:

> I liken it to ballroom dancing, in which the partners move their bodies and
> feet in tune together, one "leading," to be sure, but both mutually and subtly
> feeding cues to each other. We also enjoy sharing food and conversation in the
> double. For us, the double allows more intimacy, and we can talk in lower tones
> than if we are in separate singles.

Funny, even though I was in a Feathercraft double (where the cockpits are
closer than some) I found that I had to practically yell to have my partner
hear me from either the front or back position. Miscommunications were
common because of this. The front paddler's ears are facing the wrong way to
hear from behind and the front paddlers mouth is also facing the wrong way
to be easily heard. Side by side in singles its just an easy turn of the
head to be face to face and have a nice conversation and if you want a hug
you can get together for that too much more easily in a single.
I agree paddling in a double together for a week might be a good test before
getting married.

Dave later wrote:

>>Matt, do you dance? <<


I love to dance but don't do it often enough and developed the taste for it
later in life. In an earlier post I said that one of the reasons I went to a
symposium was for the dance. I do tend to like wild rock and roll and am
totally untrained and get pretty wild. once I slow danced with a partner who
made me feel that I was a great dancer but I imagine it was she who was the
great dancer. As you know, I also dance on skis and back in the 70's was
part of a couples act (as well as competing solo) in national freestyle
contests.
I have also used a double in some kayak races with a female partner and we
got along great but then it was only for and hour or two at a time not
several weeks.
I would rather tow my partner than have to paddle in a double from either
position. Then I won't have to deal with: 1)paddle splash--I put on my
Sou'wester rain hat, difficulty communicating, 2)paddle clash--and the
tension of trying to avoid it for the stern paddler, 3)wet ride for the bow
paddle--as a double being longer and with more weight out towards the ends
does not rise as well to the seas as a single although (I'll give Ralph a
freebie here) folding kayaks that flex can be somewhat dryer--other things
being equal), 4)so wide you feel like you're about to give birth in the
stirrups just to work the rudder pedals, 5)longer paddles (less efficient
and more difficult to control) are necessary--so the stern paddler can reach
over the boat and so the bow paddler doesn't set too high a stroke rate for
the stern paddler to keep up, 6)having to agree or negotiate every decision.
NO THANKS!
Matt Broze






Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:49:20 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a double

Matt Broze wrote:

I doubt if I will ever convince Matt or anyone who is dead set against
doubles of the virtues of paddling one but he enumerates nicely some
complaints that actually bring out a whole litany of positive points for
this type of boat:

> I would rather tow my partner than have to paddle in a double from either
> position. Then I won't have to deal with:

> 1)paddle splash--I put on my Sou'wester rain hat, difficulty communicating,

Man (and woman) were put on earth to suffer, at least that what my R.C.
catechism said. Paddle splash, as such suffering goes, isn't all that
bad. It certainly bits hell and brimfire. A plus side: the world takes
on a surreal, hallucinatory look when seen through salt encrusted
glasses...and it is all drug free and free.


> 2)paddle clash--and the tension of trying to avoid it for the stern paddler,

The nice thing about paddle clash is that it is so easy to blame the
other person. How often in life can you feel so justifiably
self-righteous and be certain you are right?...paddle clash is always
the other paddler's fault.

> 3)wet ride for the bow paddle--as a double being longer and with more weight
> out towards the ends does not rise as well to the seas as a single although
> (I'll give Ralph a freebie here) folding kayaks that flex can be somewhat
> dryer--other things being equal)

A freebie is always welcome but in truth the person in the bow even in a
folding double gets splashed but that also means they act as a
windshield...rule one of paddling a double: get somebody big and wide in
front and you, the stern paddler, will be as dry as toast. Of course
you won't see very much around the hulk sitting in the front. Have some
reading material pinned to their back.

> 4)so wide you feel like you're about to give birth in the stirrups just
> to work the rudder pedals,

Gynecologists have been wrestling with what advance to give pregnant
women who still want to keep paddling. Matt, your observation holds an
answer to this question.

> 5)longer paddles (less efficient > and more difficult to control) are
> necessary--so the stern paddler can reach over the boat and so the bow
> paddler doesn't set too high a stroke rate for the stern paddler to
> keep up,

Longer paddles are actually good things to have as they make for more
headroom when you use them to hold up a tarp (Greenland storm paddles
are the worse). Working out that ratio of paddle lengths for the bow
and the stern is good for learning higher mathematics; college-bound
students can rate advanced math placement if they have paddled a double.

> 6)having to agree or negotiate every decision.

Do you realize that companies pay big bucks to corporate trainers and
facilitators to instill such skills in employees on every level? How
much cheaper and more enjoyable it would to take such lessons out of the
classroom and put them on the water.

> NO THANKS!

Matt, this has been just great. The challenges and objections you raise
have opened a whole positive side of paddling a double that I never
envisioned. YES, THANKS!!

:-) ralph :-)
--
 
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Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录
 
kurtyang04 当前在线 kurtyang04
PaddleWise Discussion on Rolling a Folding Kayak


The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission.



Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:10:12 -0700
From: [Ralph Diaz]
Subject: [Paddlewise] into the fray

My internet server, Netcom, was on the blink regarding email for the
last 24 hours or so. And so, I didn't get the stream of discussion
regarding rolling, paddlefloats, et al until this morning in one lump
sum. Very enlightening to see it all at once as it lets you step back
to see the forest not just the trees.

If I recall, I think this all started with the beginning of a discussion
of Lone Malden's death in Greenland that was narrated by her paddling
mate in the most recent issue of Sea Kayaker. And perhaps we should
address that.

For my 2 cents, when I heard that she did not know how to roll and that
she regularly choose to paddle hundreds of yards away from her companion
in those waters, I was dumbfounded. I don't roll, and that may make me
lesser of a paddler than some of you (I say "some" because a good 80% of
sea kayakers do not know how to roll at all or certainly not in any
reliable way), but I would never have chosen to do the type of paddling
that she did, where she did, in her kind of kayak without something
approaching a bombproof roll. Out of her boat, in the waters she
regularly paddled, self-rescue would always be dicey at best.

I made a choice quite awhile ago to get into a class of boat which do
not roll easily nor do they need to...folding kayaks. That is a
generalization about them as a breed. Some of them can be rolled
readily...the Feathercraft Khatsalano comes to mind (and so can the
K-Light and K-1). But the others cannot be reliably rolled. Klepper
singles have been rolled but more of a circus act in a pool or off of a
calm beach, i.e. not a reliable self-rescue technique in open water.

Folding kayaks, such as Kleppers, have quite reliably been paddled in
rough conditions all over the world without capsizing. Where they have
tipped over generally has been when under sail, which is a tricky thing
under certain conditions such as near headlands, where wind gusts catch
the top of the Klepper gaff-rigged S-4 sail and tip the boat. It does
take a lot to capsize one while paddling. It happens rarely. The only
time a folding kayak has gone over on me while paddling was when I got
caught in a strainer and the rushing water caught the upstream side of
my deck and flipped me (in that situation, a strainer, a roll would not
have worked in any kayak). Oh, I saw one go over on the PBS Trailwise
show of the round Manhattan circumnavigation. The host was in a single
Klepper and was in the whirlpools that temporarily form around Hell Gate
at certain tidal cycle times. His paddle got caught by the swirly water
and he tried to hang on to it figuring his big muscles would win out
(score: water dynamics 1, big muscles zero).

If I had stayed with hardshells, which was my intention when I started
paddling, I would have worked my darnest to get a reliable roll and to
practice it regularly, which is the only sensible thing to do in certain
kinds of boats. Once I went to a kind of boat that rolling was not much
of a self-rescue option, the incentive to learn was gone. I have
dabbled at it every half dozen years but never really pushed it. It
ain't witchcraft or voodoo, it can be learned. And it is fun as some
people have pointed out.

Let's see if I can summarize regarding hardshells. I have no stake in
this one way or another as I don't paddle them, so no particular axe to
grind on the roll vs. other rescue techniques:

1. If your intention is to go out into the ocean in a hardshell and
play in surf, you must develop a good roll in the process. To do
anything less is foolhardy.

What Lone did in Greenland was unwise considering the conditions she
would be in fairly constantly. She had tons of rescue and safety gear
such as EPIRB, VHF radio, flares, paddlefloat, etc. but not the internal
thing she really needed to save herself, i.e. an ability to stay in her
boat and either roll it up or hang in there in a storm scull until she
could get her wits about her or into better waters. And, again, she was
paddling so far away from her paddlemate that he could not do a thing
for her, albeit it seems he probably didn't know much about assisted
rescues in rough conditions either, or I could be wrong.

2. Whatever you do regarding rolling, do get a reentry and roll down
pat, especially if your ordinary roll is not absolutely reliable. Help
yourself along by having either a rigid foam float or a partially
inflated one ready. And it is absolutely best that you do so in a way
that you connect your skirt before rolling up in order to keep water
out.
When I was looking into hardshells and the renter and roll technique
back then it was always taught and practiced in this way. i.e. attach
skirt under water. I was fairly shocked to see in Sea Kayaker a year or
two ago that Nigel Foster was showing it without that step, which will
definitely scoop up a cockpit full of water. If you are using this
rescue method, it might as well be "in for a penny, in for a sixpence."

3. Paddlefloats and pumps are only as good as the paddler and his/her
practice with them. Sounds like a cliche, but I can't begin to count
the number of paddlers of hardshells that I have run across who
dutifully carry them and have never practiced using them at all. I
guess they think, like in having a jack and spare tire in your car
trunk, you can just deal with them when the emergency comes and you can
read the owner's manual etc. I know this is a hard point to argue
especially in this illustrious company of Paddlewise, which is already a
semi-select group because it is at least interested in such subjects as
this, but really, most paddlers with pumps and floats on their back
decks have never used them even in practice. I think this underscores
John Winters point about blind faith in gear, especially among the
unitiated; hell that's more than blind faith, it is expecting a miracle
to save you.

ralph diaz









Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:46:57 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Re: How do you hold your paddle?

Allan Singleton wrote:

> Matt Broze wrote:
> But if I was paddling in New Zealand it would be upside down (but so would I).
>
> Now you know why I have never bothered learning to roll!

I have never learned how to roll, either. But I have never tried very hard and
have less of an incentive to do so because of being in folding kayaks. All of
them actually can be rolled, some easier than others, but it tends to be a
deliberate, calculated act rather than one of necessity, the exception being
something like the Feathercraft Khatsalano (all 3 or 4 versions that have been
made), which, in that respect, acts more like a hardshell than say a Nautiraid
Raid 1 or Klepper single.

Having said that, however, I do dabble in learning how to roll now and then. I
tried early on about 10 years ago when I thought I would be using single
hardshells but then stopped the effort when I saw the light in the folding
singles. But of late, I have tried again. I am now in the process of being
real earnest about it over the winter, thanks to the kind efforts of Gabriel
Romeu, a fellow PaddleWiser and friend, who is going out of his way to get me to
lessons with some of the best rolling instructors in the business, at least on
the East Coast.

I still lack the driving incentive because of what I paddle. If I had stayed in
hardshells, I would most definitely have learned how to roll. I would never own
a hardshell unless I was on the road to developing a roll.

Funny how our various schools of thought can co-exist, i.e. those who see this
as a wet sport (one of local great local instructors, Ray Killen, ends his all
his mail with "Stay Wet!) and those, like me, who believe in staying dry and on
top. While there are some in the "Stay Wet!" school (not at all Ray) tend to
deny the legitimacy of the Stay Dry school (I hear comments, not always in jest,
about when am I going to get into a "real" sea kayak), I suspect a lot more
understanding all around is what prevails these days thanks in great part to
forums such as Paddlewise.

ralph diaz





Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:09:51 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling, rolling, keep them kayaks . . .

KiAyker@... wrote:
>
> Actually, the discussion on rec.boats.paddle.touring began with someone's
> claim that all competent trip leaders should know how to roll. A position
> which I have been staunchly arguing against. It then degenerated into the
> proposition that all competent sea kayakers should know how to roll. Again, I
> don't agree. Mr. Bowles, whom I believe is a part of this list also, makes a
> valid point when he throws canoeing into the equation.
> As I pointed out on the newsgroup, there are various levels of sea
> kayaking, each requiring different amounts of skill and equipment. People who
> are content exploring calm water on the weekend certainly do not need to know
> how to roll. They are still, nevertheless, part of our sea kayaking
> community. I also do not believe that people who enjoy well run group trips
> need to be up on their solo rescues either. Of course, it wouldn't hurt! But
> it's not necessary for either the group, or the group leader to have these
> skills.
>
> Scott

I saw Scott's posting to that newsgroup and thought it was quite
well-stated. Another thing that Scott elaborated on, but which he
doesn't mention here, is an excellent point about leaders. He stressed
that the skills that should be looked on for them is not whether they
can roll or not but rather that they possess judgment and knowledge to
see a group reasonably safely through the waters they are paddling.
Whether that individual has two dozen rolling techniques or not makes
little difference for the group. He or she certainly should also have a
no-nonsense assisted rescue technique which he or she can put into
action without hesitation or pondering.

The reason I added that last point is that I know of one case years ago
here in the harbor on a busy weekend when a double kayak went over.
Pleasure crafts were whizzing around and they were in the path of
several ferries. The leader came over and started debating with himself
and others whether to use X method or Y method and who exactly should do
it and from what angle, etc. A silly waste of time was being wasted in
figuring out the optimum approach when what should hold, borrowing from
Nike ads, "Just Do It!" While he was holding court, a very skilled
old-timer solo canoeist just paddled up and did the rescue, no bull
shit.

best,

ralph
--








Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:48:18 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Survey results

Scott,

Thanks for taking the time to do this survey. I have a couple of
comments:

KiAyker@... wrote:

> The problem I have been having has to do with putting a value on the
> Eskimo roll for touring/sea kayakers. While I agree that learning the roll
> usually makes learning bracing and other skills easier, and it can instill a
> greater sense of self confidence in the paddler (a good thing?), the fact
> remains that some very dramatic voyages have been undertaken by kayakers who
> could not roll, either because they lacked the skill, or because the boat
> they were using was not rollable. SNIP I just donâ^À^Ùt understand
> why the roll is apparently of such great importance to beginning sea kayakers
> while it is virtually ignored by experienced canoeists and explorers?

A lot of the dramatic voyages have been done in folding kayaks and so to
a degree this is true. Folding kayaks can be rolled but not as reliably
as other kayaks. Depends on the model. In any folding kayak you need
to be tightly positioned in the boat and few people bother to set up
their foldables in that way except for performance ones like the
Khatsalano. And with many a dramatic voyage involving double foldables,
the task of rolling in an emergency is even more askewed. I have seen
double foldables rolled but mainly as what I term a circus act, i.e.
alongside a dock, carefully set up, lots of discussions, agreement on a
countdown to coordinate the roll etc. I can't imagine two guys or gals
in a double into their 20 mile on a particular day when they suddenly
get knocked over having the instinct to perform a coordinated roll while
fatigued and lost in their own thoughts when they suddenly hit the
water. Same with a solo paddler in a double folding kayak, another
standard for longish voyages. It would be a bitch to roll.

But in singles like the Khats (or its sister Feathercraft, the K-1),
rolling should be a self-required skill for any deep water voyager.

Back to the dramatic voyages. Who doubts that Lone Madsen, who perished
a year or two ago in Greenland in her hardshell, would not have had a
different story to tell if she had known how to roll. I can't see how
anyone would attempt what she did in such hairy waters without a very
reliable roll and an impeccable reenter-and-roll as a backup. She
simply could not do either and was not up to even a paddle float rescue
from what I understand, albeit conditions would have taxed any paddle
float rescue attempt.


> answers I received. 37% responded that they could not roll, 34% could roll
> close to 100% of the time, and the rest fell in between.

Rolling has been an evolving phenomenon. Better teaching methods,
better outfitting of boats and contagious enthusiasm have tended to up
the figures of those who can roll reliably or have any rolling ability.
Depends on the paddling circles you run in. In some paddling circles, a
high portion of people roll and a high portion within that have a pretty
reliable combat roll. In others, the percentages are quite low.
Figures for PaddleWise can be somewhat askewed since this is an
enthusiasts listserver and perhaps people are reluctant to admit they
can't. But the figures you come up with are in keeping with what I have
seen in some paddling circles. And it is improving.

About 5 years ago I was at the Delmarva Paddlers Retreat which draws a
more skilled crowd of paddlers and is a mecca now for Greenlandic
paddling. A show of hands came up with about 20% saying they had a
reliable or combat roll. I would suspect that now that same group would
be up around a third as your survey comes up with, perhaps even higher.
(But if you were to ask that question in my paddling crowd at the
Boathouse, you would find that those with a combat roll would be, at
best, in the low single digit percentage and a very low percentage could
say they have done any rolling at all.)

What has helped is better teaching styles, the spread of better
instructor types (official, certified or not official nor certified),
and the good ole Greenland paddle, which simplifies teaching rolling.
When I first started paddling a dozen years ago and thought I would wind
up in a hardshell, I took some serious stabs at learning to roll. My
story is quite comical and I will share that in print one day...but I
didn't learn. Groups too big in terms of people to instructor ratios,
too brief sessions, and instructors who weren't as attuned to the needs
of a wide range of people's needs and ways of learning. Then I
discovered the real worth and reliability of single folding kayaks and
just dropped the rolling quest.

More recently I have returned to the rolling pursuit, mainly because I
am a curious soul not for any real need in the type of boat I paddle
(which won't really tip over easily and are quite easy to re-enter
without props). Also Gabriel Romeu, who I met via PaddleWise,
generously offered to make the logistics easy for me to get to some
excellent instructors with good one-on-one oppportunities for long
enough time slots. After some so-so attempts last year, it finally
worked for me in January. The ingredients were a good instructor, Dan
Smith of Philadelphia, the Greenland paddle in a Pawlata extended paddle
grip, and the right method of instruction that clicked for me (Dan uses
something like what Matt Broze says in his web page about going through
the stages components particularly from finish position back down into
the water). 15 minutes with Dan and I was rolling over and over again;
sloppy, poor technique, but rolling nevertheless. So now I am rolling a
hardshell in a pool with the normal progression of most people who have
learned to roll (i.e. some good sessions followed by regression into
piss poor sessions). I intend to followup over the coming months with a
Euro paddle and a folding kayak such as the K-Light. I doubt I will
ever get a combat roll as there isn't that much of an incentive for one
in the boats I paddle. Moreover, I do think this should be a dry sport
not a wet sport as some insist. I want to be on the surface and favor
boats that will keep me there not ones that I have to coax to stay
upright with an assortment of skills and then recover with a roll from
wet if I do capsize.

My final thought. If a person like me can learn to roll at the ripe age
of 61 with little pressing urgency or incentive to do so, then certainly
anyone can and should if paddling a hardshell under 23.55 inch beam
(how's that for being arbitrary :-)). Whether you then can progress to
a reliable roll in combat situations is another matter. But if you
paddle the kind of boat that can more easily capsize and is harder to
remount, then do go for it.

Thanks for listening,

ralph diaz
--








From: Bob Denton
Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:20:47 -0400

I had a chance to try and roll a K-Light on Saturday and gave up after 3
attempts. I had no problem flicking back off the bow of another boat but
couldn't get any purchase on the Feathercraft. There was too much lateral
movement. It felt like a couple of foam hip pads may do the trick?

Does anyone roll a K-Light? If so, how did you outfit it?

cya





Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:10:20 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

I haven't but have watched it done. Also had a lead article in one of
my newsletters this year about rolling one. Apparently when the boat
was first introduced in 1993, Chris Cunningham, editor of Sea Kayaker,
got in one and rolled and rolled it over again.

The person who I saw do it over and over again in a pool in Philadelphia
was a first time roller, really learning on the K-Light how to roll. He
had no particular padding inside (nor on him...a small fellow). He was
also using the slippery seasock. He almost got an off side roll in the
sessions I watched him.

The secret? Obviously padding would help and there are sorts of
approaches to this. But another few tricks to try are:

--bring the foot pedals closer to you than is normally comfortable.
This helps jam you in place more tightly driving your knees into the
deck fabric for better grip.

--recognize that the boat has a bit more inertia to it than a
hardshell. So let the boat come up more on its own before doing a sweep
or whatever roll you do (this I got from Ken Fink of Poseidon Kayaks in
Walpole Maine, who regularly teaches people how to roll using K-Lights.

ralph diaz
--





Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:36:34 +0200
From: Reinhold Werner Weber
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to
roll. On the other hand, they don't turn over in rough seas easily.

But some people have done it. See:

Dave rolls a Klepper
http://www.vsb.cape.com/~mccue/docs/klepper.html

In the July/August number of Kanu Magazin (in German) there was a photo of a
Feathercraft Klondike (a double!) being rolled. With air-sponsons deflated,
they indicated.

But these are rare, exceptional performances.

Reinhold Weber





Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:21:27 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

While it takes a lot to roll a double folding kayak, it is not
exceptional. Any pair of good rollers can do it. I have seen it done
with the double Klepper, which is wider than the Klondike by almost half
a foot, and with the sponsons inflated. The hardest job may be in
tipping the boat over in the first place. The pair I saw had to
practically dive over the side while attached to their sprayskirts in
order to get the boat to flip.

But the issue of rolling a folding kayak is almost academic. They are
not prone to tip and even a modicum of a brace will keep you upright in
absolutely insane waters, or just working like the devil to stay
centered in your boat will do.

I first became really aware of this when I was out in a Klepper Aerius I
with friends who were in hardshells. We were together in a particularly
funny spot on the Connecticut coast in which waters were swirling and
clashing around some islands. My friends were within a boat length or
two of me and had to brace to keep their kayaks steady. I was so
fascinated by their bracing that I put down my paddle, placed it in its
paddle pocket and reached into my lunch bag. While in the very same
conditions as they, I eat a half a sandwich watching them bracing.

Most folding kayaks have a low brace built into them. They all can tip
but they have to go pretty far over to do so.

I am not certain that a folding kayak, except a very slim one like the
Khatsalano, could be reliably rolled, i.e. a roll seeing you through
like it might in a slimmer hardshell or skinboat. Rolling is more of a
circus act, to be performed like the pair I saw with the Klepper and the
guys in Germany mentioned above with their Feathercraft Klondike.

ralph diaz
--





From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:59:13 EDT
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

Reinhold Werner Weber writes:

<< It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to
roll. ... >>

What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold?

There's a couple of guys in NYC who roll their Klepper Aerius II on the Hudson
(without special outfitting, I believe).

The K-Lite rolls rather well actually, as does the Khatsalano. Ralph Diaz's
advice about jamming your legs under the deck helps if you have not yet
outfitted the boat to suit your build. The trick is to keep your heels close
together and splay out your knees under the coaming to also gain sufficient
lateral hold.

I have sculled a K1 with both ears in the water and had no trouble at all
getting back up (the owner / dealer asked me not to roll because he did not
want to get an aluminium framed boat full of saltwater in case I punched
out :-)

And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 (sponsons
and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on www.PouchBoats.com to prove
it in the case of the latter).

Grinning from ear to ear ...

Ralph C. Hoehn





From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:25:01 EDT
Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling folding kayaks

ralph diaz writes:

> I am not certain that a folding kayak, except a very slim one like the
> Khatsalano, could be reliably rolled, i.e. a roll seeing you through like it
> might in a slimmer hardshell or skinboat. Rolling is more of a circus act,
> to be performed like the pair I saw with the Klepper and the guys in Germany
> mentioned above with their Feathercraft Klondike.
>

Ralph,

1 - Learning to roll of course always makes for excellent skills practice -- even
in a folding kayak. But I agree that in the case of the latter rolling might come
under the category of "circus act" in the best possible sense.

2 - On the other hand I wish I'd had the guts to invert in the face of a
particularly nasty breaker and roll back up on the other side a couple of months
ago because I'm sure that the bottom of my boat would have proved much more
resilient than my neck and back. No circus trick that!

(For the record: After getting slammed quite hard the boat just punched through
and popped up on the other side of the wave on an even keel unscathed -- I got
a free back rub that evening, poor baby :-)

The Other Ralph





Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:23:32 +0200
From: Reinhold Werner Weber
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 [Ralph C. Hoehn] wrote:

> What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold?

Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its canvas
deck wet will make it last longer! Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a
circus act, really fun, but you don't need it. I have been watching Faltboot.de
(the German folding news group) now for some time, but I haven't noticed yet a
discussion about rolling foldables. That is difference with respect to plastic
boats, where it is an important safety feature.

> And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68
> (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on
> www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter).

I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your site. This
would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the Klondike
(print only).

>
> Grinning from ear to ear ...
>

But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are
difficult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll
was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style
folding kayak. For an example see:

http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html

(It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired
and restored. German text and lots of pictures.)

These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Two
models subsist:
Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs'wink
Pouch Falt-Eski
Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the
Falt-Eski.

Reinhold Weber





From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:52:22 EDT
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

Couldn't resist a point-by-point here:

> RH: What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold?
> RWW: Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its
> canvas deck wet will make it last longer!

RH: Pickling it in brine helps to check the rot, just don't wash it with fresh
water later! My RZ85 (double) has survived 30 years of such "abuse" :-)

> RWW: Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a circus act, really fun, but
> you don't need it.

RH: Most of the time you don't need your PFD, GPS, first aid kit, tow rope ...
in fact I don't need to be able to do a handstand either, but practicing it has
certain indirect benefits nonetheless. As I pointed out previously: Bracing,
sculling and rolling practice is a good back-up to (boat-) form-stability
complacency!

> RWW: I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for
> some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling foldables.

RH: Excellent point. I'd better start one. Or do you want to? :-)

> RWW: That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an
> important safety feature.

RH: I expect that most hard shell paddlers never actually need a roll either.
Depends on the boat, the paddling circumstances etc. Ralph Diaz has written
eloquently on the subject with regard to folding boats here recently, so no need
to go into it further.

> RH: And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68
> (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on
> www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter).
> RWW: I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your
> site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the
> Klondike (print only).

RH: I take that as a challenge :-)). But I need a partner for this: My usual bow
man is only 3 feet tall. Anyone Wise Paddlers in the Stamford CT area up for it?
On-water demo day in South Norwalk CT coming up this Saturday ...

> RH: Grinning from ear to ear ...
> RWW: But let's get a bit more serious: ...

RH: And here I was trying not to be a "typical" German.

> RWW: ... I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are dificult to roll, not
> foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll was re-invented by
> Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style folding kayak.

RH: 1927 it was. Franz von Alber was next and the Rautenberg brothers probably
have a justified claim to having developed a roll independently. "Kipp Kipp
Hurra! Im reinrassigen Eskimokajak!" Do you have access to a copy?

> RWW: For an example see:
> http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel,
> maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired and restored. German text and
> lots of pictures.)

RH: He has so far refused to send it over here for me to "test". (See, Marian,
now it's out in the open and you're embarrassed. I warned you about this!!)

> RWW: These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out.
> Two models subsist:
> Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs'wink
> Pouch Falt-Eski
> Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the
> Falt-Eski.

RH: The Pouch Falt-Eski clearly and regrettably did not appeal to a large enough
market to secure its commercial viability. The boat was designed for one
particular paddler in such a way as to suit his not-so-standard dimensions. If
you're going to spend the kind of money that it takes to get a commercial
builder to create such a craft, you want it to fit perfectly, after all, Arctic
kayaks were built specifically for each paddler. But never say never in the
context of a Pouch Falt-Eski ...

Also, there is a surprisingly large "underground" of folding kayak builders out
there. If you're interested, drop me a line off-list, so we don't bore the rest
of the PaddleWisenheimers to tears with more "mere" folding kayak stuff. :-)

Ralph C. Hoehn





Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:38:02 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

The Nautiraid Greenlander went through 3 generations in about a dozen
years. The current one is 27 inches wide and not meant to roll.

The original Nautiraid Greenlander was 19 inches wide without air
sponsons. It was highly rolleable. It was also highly unpaddleable for
most people and was not a success (it was later given sponsons that took
the boat to about 23-24 inch beam but it too did not sell well). For
some reason folding kayaks that are on the narrow side often seem much
more tippy than a hardshell of the same dimensions. Take for example
the Feathercraft Khatsalano without sponsons which has a beam of around
22 inches. It feels more tippy than a hardshell of that beam or of even
21 inch beam. That particular model, as well as the Khatsalano with
sponsons, seems to want to tip to one side when at rest, i.e. rest on
one chine or another. It is disconcerting until you get used to it. It
leaves you with a sideways slouch.

ralph diaz
--





Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:31:54 +0200
From: Marian Gunkel
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

Reinhold Weber wrote:

> I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for
> some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling > foldables.
> That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an important
> safety feature.

This might be a function of the German folding kayakers in general: they
seem to be rather conservative in learning "new" things and they are also
quite lazy whern it comes to safety issues. Wearing a PFD almost all the
time puts me into the position of an outsider (although the call for more
safety begins to work!). The same with things like paddle or bracing
techniques.
If I recall it correctly, there are more fatalities among the German touring
paddlers than among the WW paddlers (the latter are very safety concious).

> Reinhold Weber: > I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being
> rolled on your site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for
> the picture of the Klondike (print only).

I'll be putting that Klondike picture some place on my website so that PW
members can have a look too. I won't be able to get my hands on a RZ 96
double soon, so I have to rely on some willing American paddlers rolling
Ralphs boat on the demo day in CT.

> But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons
> are dificult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the
> eskimo-roll was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim
> greenland style folding kayak. For an example see:
>
> http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html
>
> (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has
> acquired and restored. German text and lots of pictures.)

Shame on me, I don't have any pictures with the boat on the water yet
(although I paddled it twice since I got the new skin last week). The
Moell-Kayak had been constructed to paddle mainly WW but also coastal water
with some touring luggage. Rolling in it is definitively easy and the boat
contact can only be compared to a Kathsalano. Unfortunately, the boat has
only been manufactured in the 50's an early 60's and some 20 models were
produced.

On rolling: I can roll a K-Light very easily as well as an Pouch E 68, and
with some little difficulties my 45 year old Pouch E65. As has been stated
already, rolling a kayak is mainly a matter of good boat contact and good
technique: both the K-Light and the E 68 provide very good boat contact.

>
> These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out.

Some German kayakers are quite successful in designing and building foldable
sea kayaks. There's a world besides the commercial boat builders ... :-)

> Two models subsist:
> Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs'wink
> Pouch Falt-Eski
> Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on
> the Falt-Eski.

I am not Ralph but may I comment? The Pouch Falt-Eski
(www.pouch-inoffiziell.de/boote/falteski.html in German) had been designed
by someone more than 2 meters (thats somewhere above 6 ft ..): apparently
the boat wasn't very well received by the market (also due to some changes
in the ribs that improved the boats initial stability) so Pouch decided to
stop it's production. In my opinion and in the opinion of the few Falt-Eski
owners, the boat tracks really great and it handled good on choppy waters.
So, the boat might not be dead.

On commercial success: both boats aim for a very small target group. Since
the folding kayak market is a niche itself, those boats really *can't* be
commercial successes.

Disclaimer: I am sympathising with Pouch and am the webmaster of
Pouch-inoffiziell.de (non commercial) and PouchBoats.com (commercial).

Regards,
Marian






Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:23:59 +0100
From: Marian Gunkel
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folkding Kayaks Topic on PW Website

> For those interested in discussion on folding kayaks, you might
> want to check out the PaddleWise web pages on folding kayaks at
> http://www.paddlewise.net/topics/foldingkayak/

Reading through the folding kayak topics, I remembered to having promised
publishing a picture of a Feathercraft Klondike being rolled.
You'll see it at http://www.mariangunkel.de/pics/klondike_roll.jpg
(copyright by Kanu Magazin)
This picture appeared in an article comparing some folding kayak doubles.

I also translated the page on the greenlandic folding kayak Gesa Moell into
English (with some help) and added some photos of the boat in use:

http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell_e.html


Regards,
Marian
Marian Gunkel, Berlin, Germany









Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:45:22 +1100
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

All,

Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats? I mean in real
conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it.
By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which
would put you upside down in one of these boats?
This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who is
constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning
friends.
My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason of its
air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the
whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat.
And how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without
dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. I
just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit
without going to ludicrous measures.
All this, however, places even a greater onus on owners of boats like mine
to religiously practice self rescue techniques other than rolling. And
because I paddle mostly in open sea, this means practice in realistically
rough conditions.
It seems to me, that rolling is something which my friends constantly
obsess about; and I guess if I owned a boat which allowed me to hang upside
down in force four [ or worse ] conditions while I set up for a roll, I
would practice the same technique.
At this end of the world [ Australia ], there is such an emphasis on
rolling ability that it has now become a dictum that if you don't roll, you
aren't really a seakayaker. This I think comes from the mind set of really
expert kayakers who can roll up if they are trashed on a surf exit or
entry, which is where most of us come unstuck.
We recently had a 'club incident' in which a number of kayakers found
themselves floundering around tipped out of their boats [ all glass or
plastic ] in worsening wind and sea conditions about a kilometre off a
rocky lee shore, and unable to self rescue.
In other words they needed other kayakers/ or rescuers from shore to help
them get upright and/or out of danger.
Some of these folks had probably practiced rolling, but when they
encountered a suprise capsize, which is quite a different kettle of fish to
a controlled set up roll in flat calm, they failed to rescue themselves.
Again, it is my observation, that if you are going to rely on a roll as
the primary self rescue technique, then this should incorporate a re-entry
upside down, and roll up. And how many of us can do that, or practice this?
Any thoughts, folks, particularly from the good 'ol folding boat community?
Peter Rattenbury





From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:18:18 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

Peter Rattenbury:
> Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats? I mean in real
> conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it.
> By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which
> would put you upside down in one of these boats?

Ralph Hoehn: Peter, that depends.

Khatsalano owners will happily roll all day long and are well advised to be
able to do so. At least some larger and heavier users of K-Light and Alu-Lite
will also benefit from a roll even under "normal" paddling circumstances.

Let's expand your question to the wider range of currently available folding
boats:

In a broad generalization Folbot, Klepper and Nautiraid singles, as well as
the Feathercraft K1 and the Pouch E65 will not need to be rolled under normal
circumstances, nor are they intended to be, but, as Jochen Grikschat points
out, ("rolling for everyone"): Having the skills to perform a roll will make
your paddling in general that much more self-confident.

Seavivor singles (I'm told) and the Pouch E68 can be paddled comfortably
without ever rolling. However, if you take them into or through surf (where
they are a lot of fun!) the ability to roll will stand you in good stead,
increase your enjoyment of the experience and make you safer -- it will make
the unit of you, the paddler, and your craft that much more seaworthy (no
boat is seaworthy until it has a competent operator).

Folding doubles should probably not be rolled under real life conditions. It
is hard and requires very good cordination. If the circumstances are such
that you capsized in the first place, a technique, which is already
complicated to perform in a double, will most likely become impossible. At
that point it's easier and probably safer to perform an inverted exit, right
the boat and reenter, the one paddler helping the other. Practice this in
earnest!

HOWEVER: The important thing is NOT the act of rolling, but rather the
acquisition of the skill that COULD give you the ability to roll.

Many folding kayakers are complacent in that they love to rely on the
"legendary" stability of their boats to see them through adversity. In short,
steep breaking waves however this stability works against you once the
severity of the sea state surpasses a certain point: The tendency of the boat
to stay parallel to the surface of the water leaves you perpendicular to it
even when the surface of the water is no longer level. Eventually that will
lead to a capsize, unless you have the confidence and ability to brace very
aggressively into the (breaking) wave that's about to tumble you. In fact, in
a "stable" folding boat, your brace needs to be much more aggressive than in
less stable craft.

I contend that having practiced inversion prevention and inversion recovery
in any boat will be of benefit to you under such circumstances (even if you
never take it to a full inversion and recovery, the "circus trick"; and by
the way, Ralph Diaz continues to work hard on his rolling skills, even if he
has no intention of ever running away to the circus, which is what I
threatened my parents with most of a life time ago).

PR:
> This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who
> is constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning
> friends. My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason
> of its air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the
> whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat.

RH: (pet peeve: It's not the air sponsons that give the boat stability, but
the area, shape and distribution (along the length of the boat) of the hull's
submerged cross sections. Increasing beam will tend to increase stability --
whether the exterior shape of the hull is determined by the outline of the
boat's sponsonless frame or by inserted sponsons or by the skin being stuffed
full of old socks is irrelevant. Inflatable sponsons provide no stability
until the boat is swamped.)

I quite agree with you that the notion of rolling a Klepper single (and most
other folding singles for that matter) is contrary to its design of course.
These boats were designed for relatively calm river touring, not for sea
kayaking; they are not intended to invert. However, more and more kayakers
are pushing the envelope of what is possible with these boats. To do so, to
take the boats beyond their design limits, you need skills and technique ...
or you have to change to a boat which is designed for more extreme
conditions.

Incidentally, Edi Hans Pawlata writes in his introduction to "Kipp, kipp
hurrah!" (published in 1928) describes how he was not only proud to see his
first student perform a roll in a narrow, Greenland-type hull, but for that
same student to effect the technique in a "normal" river touring (folding)
boat. The design of the latter is likely to have been very similar to
traditional folding singles like the Klepper (as opposed to the more recently
developed folding boats entering the market in the last few years).

PR:
> And how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without
> dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. I
> just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit
> without going to ludicrous measures.

RH:
- Retrofitting solid footrests (if they are not factory installed) is
something one should do to any (folding) boat unless the transverse frames
happen to provide decent purchase for your feet.
- A firm, fixed seat and back rest should be a standard requirement.
- I've had no problems bracing my knees under the coaming of Klepper doubles
for my third vital contact point to effect boat control (in single paddler
mode).
- The only modification I made to my Pouch RZ96 for pool training was to
strap inflatable buoyancy bags to the frame at the gunwales on either side of
the seat: Perfect, cheap, infinitely adjustable outfitting.

None of it ludicrous in my book, none of it interfered in any way with my
ability to exit inverted. Try it (especially the exit!), practice it ...
Jochen Grikschat is somewhat of an extreme paddler (about whom one might here
more in this respect in due course); nonetheless he admits to fear in a boat
and a decrease of that fear after learning certain techniques AND practicing
them. This does apply to folding boats no less!

PR:
> All this, however, places even a greater onus on owners of boats like
> mine to religiously practice self rescue techniques other than rolling. And
> because I paddle mostly in open sea, this means practice in realistically
> rough conditions.

RH: Rolling your Klepper single is NOT a rescue technique until you are VERY
good at it. Preventing an inversion is your first best form of "rescue" and,
I trust, you practice this religiously, too. Of course practicing reentry
techniques is a prerequisite for your type of paddling for the time when all
else fails ... but I'd prefer not to put myself at risk of hungry critters
(;-) or, more importantly, hypothermia in the first place.

Therefore I strongly advocate that even, no, especially (complacent) folding
boat owners wake up and practice boat control techniques (which, in my 30
years in folding boats, I have seen very few do ... including me for the
first few years until the usefulness of technique use was pointed out to me
by courtesy of a relatively benign mishap, which could have ended in
disaster). If of course you only paddle on a mill pond on a perfectly calm
sunny summer Sunday afternoon you may wish to laugh me out of court.

PR:
> It seems to me, that rolling is something which my friends constantly
> obsess about; ... At this end of the world [ Australia ], there is such an
> emphasis on rolling ability that it has now become a dictum that if you don't
> roll, you aren't really a seakayaker.

RH: Yep, people obsess about this mystical thing misnamed rolling -- wrongly
and at the expense of seeing the greater picture.

PR:
> We recently had a 'club incident' in which a number of kayakers found
> themselves floundering around tipped out of their boats [ all glass or
> plastic ] in worsening wind and sea conditions about a kilometre off a rocky
> lee shore, and unable to self rescue.
> In other words they needed other kayakers/ or rescuers from shore to help
> them get upright and/or out of danger. Some of these folks had probably
> practiced rolling, but when they encountered a suprise capsize, which is
> quite a different kettle of fish to a controlled set up roll in flat calm,
> they failed to rescue themselves.
> Again, it is my observation, that if you are going to rely on a roll as
> the primary self rescue technique, then this should incorporate a re-entry
> upside down, and roll up. And how many of us can do that, or practice this?

RH: No comment!!!

PR:
> Any thoughts, folks, particularly from the good 'ol folding boat
> community?

RH: A few ... now, where to start ... ;-)

Ralph






From: "ralph diaz"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:29:44 -0500

From: "PJ Rattenbury"
>
> Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats? I mean in real
> conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it.
> By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which
> would put you upside down in one of these boats?

The Feathercraft singles, particularly the K-1 and Khatsalano, are more
enough like a hardshell in terms of tighter cockpit fit and width, that some
people do roll them more often especially the Khats.

> This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who is
> constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning
> friends.
> My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason of its
> air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the
> whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat.
> And how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without
> dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit.
> I just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit
> without going to ludicrous measures.

Actually you could equip the Klepper pretty adequately to keep you locked in
enough not to fall out if upside down. When I had my Klepper, I had
sidebags alongside me in the cockpit that were so tight that they would have
held me in an upside position particularly if I put my knees under the
crossrib just a bit forward of the seat. That crossrib is cut in a way
that I, at my torso length and leg length, could brace with my legs just
back from the knees. Believe me, I was locked in. I never tried rolling
and the boat, at its width and with those sponsons, would have resisted a
roll some. But it certainly would have been doable.

But, as you point out, rolling isn't a practical self-defense or self-rescue
technique in a Klepper. You best bet is prevention. Stay well centered in
your single Klepper, and there isn't much that will knock you over except
stupidity. A case in point on the latter happened during one of those
Trailside shows, the one in which Eric Stiller circumnavigated Manhattan
with the show's host at the time, Peter Whittaker. Peter was in a single
Klepper and Eric in an-unaccustomed-for-him Khatsalano (Eric had sold and
promoted Kleppers for some 20 years or so). They were in the area of some
whirling waters in the Hell Gate vicinity. Peter got his paddle caught in a
downward whirl of a whirlpool. Instead of letting go or slicing the blade
back up, he hung on to it figuring he could muscle it up. He couldn't and
flipped. I found it hilarious that the more stable boat went over.
Experience showed since Eric was a long-time paddler and would not have let
that happen to him.

ralph diaz
--






Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:25:24 +1100
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

Thanks Ralph H, and others for interesting posts on this issue.

Ralph I agree with your points. After sending my first post I immediately
thought of the Khats crowd, and how they probably bought their boat so they
COULD roll!

But down this part of the world, ANY folding boat is a very rare beast. I
have heard a rumor there is a Khats or two in Australia but I have never
seen one. I see the odd Klepper around, and there are one or two
Feathercraft K1 and Lite devotees among the dozens of glass and plastic
boat owners in my local seakayaking club. Understandably, the
conversation down under is dominated by how to develop bombproof rolls and
the finer points of repairing and altering fibreglass hulls [ ( ;- ] !

I think we agree that folding boat owners should really emphasise their
ability to brace. The irony, as you point out, is that you can get by
without bracing much of the time in these fat boats, until you REALLY need
to brace! In other words the primary stability breeds laziness.

Your comments on your cockpit fit out are interesting. One of my first
modications on the Klepper was to throw away their steering cable chains,
replacing them with high-wear cordage which I can loop around and clip to
a rib when I am not using the rudder. This modification enables me to
brace the rudder pedals in an upright position and thus have nice firm
footrests. I am fortunately of the right size to be able to also jam
myself into the cockpit and CAN hang upside down in the boat. Just for fun.

Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive
capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down. In
extremis, ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc, the boat will provide a
relatively level platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc. That
is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the
'right side up'. Maybe this is comforting as I live 'downunder'! Perhaps
I should explain that I tend to paddle alone so my mindset is always to
survive alone.

I don't know if other foldables can be paddled full of water, but I
practice this also. Again, it is just another technique which helps you
extend the capabilities of the design. This of course is more practical if
the boat is full of gear, or carries bow and stern floatation. This is
where the Klepper gets its U-boat nickname! Downunder, we tend to fit
electric pumps, and in my case I have a Rule 800gph, and a rather large
sealed lead acid 12v battery which has proved a reliable setup over several
years. With manual pump and bucket backup of course.

You mention that the Klepper has a 'river boat' heritage. I guess that's
right, but I am sure you will also agree that a good 'ol boat in capable
hands is still a safe prospect at sea. And I have found that at the end of
the day, ie, six hours into a head wind and sea, I am still there with
the glass and plastic boats. Not the fastest, not the most fashionable, but
still there. And I really appreciate the design's seaworthiness, almost
an intangible, but over long hours at sea, the ability to sail, the ability
to not expend energy on maintaining stability/tracking in high wind/seas
compared with some boats, and the relative chances of a successful
re-entry on capsize, all combine to make it a plus for survivability.
I AM going to pursue rolling the Klepper, out of cussedness, as much as
anything.

But I will take survivability over rollability anytime.

Peter Rattenbury






From: SeaKayakNH@...
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:04:00 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

In a message dated 2/14/01 11:53:22 PM, [Peter Rattenbury] writes:

> Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive
> capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down. In
> extremis, ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc, the boat will provide a
> relatively level platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc. That
> is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the
> 'right side up'. << huge snip of interesting stuff >>

> But I will take survivability over rollability anytime.

Peter brings up an interesting point. Various designers take different
approaches as they strive to make their designs seaworthy and safe. A common
feature for folding boats is to design in high stability which will offers
protection via ease of handling as the paddle approaches exhaustion. This
same high stability also works to keep the uninitiated somewhat safer than
they would be in a more tender craft during early training.

Narrow Greenland style boats (whatever that means) on the other had offer
no such safe haven whether upright or inverted and offer nothing to the
non-skilled paddler. But with a pilot that has the skills they do offer the
ability to dance around in conditions that would prove quite challenging for
large boats and they provide for the ability to self-right via the roll. For
pilots of narrow boats these traits are what provide safety and "survival
capability" by allowing the craft to negotiate more extreme conditions
upright and paddling.

Two different approaches yield two different designs based on two
different safety models. I don't say that one is right and the other is
wrong, the world is too complicated for such a simplistic approach. Each
design brings with it it's own strengths and limitations. But let each
paddler chose their craft and be proud of their choice. We are all the richer
for the diversity that exists.

Jed
(Khatsalano owner wannabe)






From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 06:32:02 EST
Subject: [Paddlewise] Seaworthiness of (Folding) Kayaks

Peter Rattenbury:

> ... You mention that the Klepper has a 'river boat' heritage. I guess
> that's right, but I am sure you will also agree that a good 'ol boat
> in capable hands is still a safe prospect at sea. And I have found
> that at the end of the day, ie, six hours into a head wind and sea, I am
> still there with the glass and plastic boats. Not the fastest, not the most
> fashionable, but still there. And I really appreciate the design's
> seaworthiness, almost an intangible, but over long hours at sea, the ability
> to sail, the ability to not expend energy on maintaining stability/tracking
> in high wind/seas compared with some boats, and the r
 
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PaddleWise Discussion on the (In)Stability of (Folding) Kayaks


The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission.


Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:02:27 -0700
From: Ralph Diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stability of folding vs. hardshells

Leander wrote:
>
> At 11:44 AM 09-04-99 -0700, Philip Torrens wrote:
> >
> >Okay, I can't express this in formal technical terms, but I think Ralph
> may be right (upright?) in feeling that a sponsoned folding boat could be more
> stable and self-righting than a hardshell of equal chine and beam. (I mostly use
> hard shells so I'm not biased in favour of folding boats.)
> The displacement of a hardshell is essentially static, changing only as the
> entire boat moves. The sponsons of a folder, in contrast, are squeezed at the
> bottom as they are pushed deeper into the water, and therefore expand into
> greater width and stability in the higher parts. ...snipped...
>
> I long ago read an article on this very subject, complete with formulas,
> but it basically said what you so eloquently and succinctly described. Though the
> reference is long since lost, perhaps the design experts on the list, such as
> John or Nick, know of it.

Philip's and Leander's comments remind me of something interesting about
the way a sponsoned folding kayak behaves when it has taken on a lot of
water. If you turn that folding kayak on its side, it will rise on the
sponson on that side and spill a lot of the water out, up to about the
inside level of the sponson. (It is a neat way to begin partial
emptying of a folding kayak that most people don't know about. The
phenomenon is even more pronounced if you also have flotation bags fore
and aft as you alway should in any folding kayak or non-bulheaded
kayak.)

If there were no different in the displacement effect between a
hardshell and a folding kayak with sponsons, then this float-up
phenomenon would also happen with a hardshell laid on its side. To my
knowledge, the hardshell would not at all rise that way to spill out the
water, only the sponsoned kayak would. That column of compressed air in
the sponson is fighting its way to the surface. In a corollary way, it
also resists being submerged. Philip's idea of a dynamic as opposed to
static displacement certainly has a ring to it that shows itself in real
life.

There are so many ways of skinning a cat in the kayaking world. Some
corners of this realm offer some unique advantages that some people
don't seem to want to hear about or want to put outside the kingdom's
gate as not worthy. For example, the earlier sit-on-top kayak
discussion that I engendered that drew some flak. But let's face it,
there ain't nothing easier to empty than an SOT nor much easier to get
back into without pumps, paddle floats, re-enter and roll and all that.
Also the middle range of SOTs are every bit as fast as the middle range
of beamier hardshells made of polyethylene and are considerably stable.
Performance kayaks require performance paddlers and a lot of people
getting into kayaking are simply not going to work at getting and
keeping the skills. Wouldn't these paddlers be better off with kayaks
that are less skill reliant?

ralph diaz
--





Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 01:29:38 -0700
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stability of folding vs. hardshells

Ralph, this is completely accurate to this point. The [emphasized] part of
your next sentence (see below) describes an effect which is not physically
possible until the inflated tube is **completely** submerged, thereby
displacing a volume of water equal to the sponson's volume, giving a
buoyant effect equal to the weight of the water displaced. Any restoring
force, as Philip points out, which acts to right the kayak, *before* the
sponson is *completely* surrounded with water (both inside and outside the
yak), is due to the *form* of the outside of the yak, and can not be
affected by what is inside the yak. OTOH, I think Philip may have
correctly identified the source of the "feeling" you and he describe -- it
is due to local deformation of the *outside* of the yak's surface, owing to
the flexible character of the hull.

> In a corollary way, **it also resists being submerged.** [emphasis added]
> Philip's idea of a dynamic as opposed to static displacement certainly has
> a ring to it that shows itself in real life.

Yes. The *dynamic effect* could be genuine. The "resists being submerged"
can not. I love my folding boat, but it can not violate principles of
physics or buoyancy.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR






Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:37:34 -0700
From: [Ralph Diaz]
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - folders stability

John Winters wrote:

>> Which bring me to something, John, that you said in your early posting,
>> "Many paddlers achieve this result by packing their boats with waterproof
>> bags along the interior sides of their rigid boats." I have never seen
>> anyone do that in a hardshell.
>
> Perhaps this has to do with ignorance. I do this on my boats when I do not
> have a sea sock or pod. I use a multitude of small gear bags. Some boats,
> may lack enough beam for this kind of thing but foam sheathing glued to the
> hull sides to reduce volume also works. Reducing the floodable volume in
> the boat ios the objective. I doubt if most paddlers understand or consider
> the effects of free surface in their boats. Most production boats don't
> come with methods to attach side bags, sea socks, or pods and that seems to
> me a serious omission.

> I cannot say why builders of hardshells fail to recognize the importance of
> flooded stability. As Ralph points out, all they need do is look at folders
> to see them in use and apply the same principle.

Well, as I pointed out, Bavaria does or did that (I haven't seen their
kayaks in awhile). All it takes is to glass in some nylon twine or
webbing straps every 2 feet or so along the sides inside the kayak.
Sponsons than can be added for that desired effect. I found very
interesting your comments the relative instability of bouyancy located
at the ends of the boat and the free surface inside the cockpit.

>
> Please don't call internal buoyancy bags sponsons. Sponsons attach to the
> outside of the boat. Buoyancy bags and tanks attach inside.

I would love to and Webster's dictionary (and I am sure all naval
architecture glossaries of terms do too) but sometimes things get called
something and the label sticks and we just have to start using the term
in the corrupted way. :-)
But I do appreciate that there is a distinction...anything to get away
from the infamy the term has gotten because of your fellow Canadian.

I want to return to the question of stability of buoyancy aids in
folding kayaks. And then I am going to leave it because no one seems to
be applying any real science here other than general, unspecified
references to Archimedes. What I have to say comes from observation,
which has to count for something.

Many years ago, long before the idea of doing anything with folding
kayaks ever even entered my mind, I observed what happened with folding
kayaks in two situations that I can only attribute to something to do
with the buoyancy aids inside their soft skins. In the first one, I was
on a group paddling trip. I was directly alongside a couple in a double
Klepper, when the fellow decided to stand up (he later said he wanted to
stretch his legs). He wasn't very well coordinated and he tipped the
kayak over. I was about 30 feet directly to the side of his Klepper and
all I saw was black bottom and keel strips including the ones on both
chines, i.e. the kayak was almost completely on its side. He fell out
and the kayak righted itself. The woman in the front had only paddled
once before and hadn't the faintest idea of what a bracing stroke
was...so it wasn't she that righted the kayak. The kayak wound up right
side up with the woman having a stunned look on her face. I am not sure
how another kayak, a non-buoyancy aided flexible skin one, would behave
in similar circumstances.

Another observation, again from my pre-evangelistic folding kayak days.
I was paddling a double Klepper with my wife in our first months of
kayaking experience. We went out through surf off of Brighton Beach in
NYC. I was fiddling with a rudder lifter that I had added to the kayak
(they lacked them then and it was the first thing that I ever innovated
for the kayak that eventually got me interested in writing about this
particular species of kayaks) and did not pay heed to what was happening
with the waves coming in on us. The kayak completely broached, so much
so that our kayaking friends on the beach with many years of kayaking
and kayaking teaching experience fully expected our Klepper to
windowshade all the way back to the beach. It didn't. While the wave
side of the kayak rose way up and we were well over, something kicked
in, without any bracing whatsoever by either of us...my wife didn't know
how to brace and both my hands were on my rudder lifter line.

Will folding kayaks flip? Of course they can and do. But it takes a
lot, and my observation tells me that the bouyancy aids inside are
kicking in at some point to some degree enough to say that the
phenomenon does exist.

ralph diaz
--









Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:47:57 -0700
From: Kevin Whilden
Subject: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a
K-lite)

At 07:21 AM 9/12/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote:

> But the issue of rolling a folding kayak is almost academic. They are
> not prone to tip and even a modicum of a brace will keep you upright in
> absolutely insane waters, or just working like the devil to stay
> centered in your boat will do.



> Most folding kayaks have a low brace built into them. They all can tip
> but they have to go pretty far over to do so.

Ralph, I think there is line between when folding kayaks are more stable or
less stable than narrow hardshell boats, which I would like to define a
little better and eliminate confusion.

I am skeptical that folding kayaks are so stable in waters that some people
on this list would call "absolutely insane". This is definitely a relative
term, is it not? Never having paddled a folding kayak in rough seas, I
cannot say for sure, but I have always thought that too much primary
stability increases the chance of capsize in big steep waves or really
nasty (by my metric) tide rips. For example, has anyone paddled a wide
folding kayak in the tide rip behind the surf wave at Skookumchuck? Now
that is what I call "insane waters" -- I have never seen a more confused
mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with an occasional deep violent whirlpool.
Even the hardcore whitewater crazies avoid that place, and choose to float
down a 1/4 mile (in rodeo boats) before trying to cross that eddy fence.
But if one were to find themselves in an eddy fence of that magnitude, I
would rather be in a narrow "tippy" boat with great secondary stability
than in wide "stable" boat with high primary stability. Then I would be
more able to react with an insta-brace.

In a less extreme example, such as steep wind waves, high primary stability
tends to make the boat lie flat relative to the local water's surface. But
if that surface is nearly vertical (as in a steep wave), then a capsize is
imminent unless the paddler attempts an ill-advised down-wave brace (a
danger for shoulder dislocations). A low primary, high secondary stability
boat can just edge into the steep wave ever so slightly, ride over it, and
have no fear of capsize. Again, since I have never paddled a folding kayak
in rough water, at what point does the high initial stability become a
drawback in terms of remaining upright?

Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin Whilden





Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:24:29 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling
a K-lite)

Kevin Whilden wrote:
>
>
> Ralph, I think there is line between when folding kayaks are more stable or
> less stable than narrow hardshell boats, which I would like to define a
> little better and eliminate confusion.
>
> I am skeptical that folding kayaks are so stable in waters that some people
> on this list would call "absolutely insane". This is definitely a relative
> term, is it not?

I really don't know an absolutely definitive answer to your question.
Folding kayaks have been in far hairer waters than I would ever want to
be and have done fine. Examples: In 1990, a fellow Joe Weight took a
double from Grenada to Puerto Rico and got caught in a hurricane in
about a 60 mile crossing toward the end and didn't capsize. The
hurricane was insane enough but he regularly was in pretty insane
stuff. Two guys took a double folding kayak from Sydney to Darwin some
3,000 plus miles along the rugged surf eastern shoreline of Australia.
They capsized, I believe just once in some 100 days of paddling. Some
of the waters they were in were absolutely insane by any definition. A
lot of the staying upright for these guys and hundreds of other
expeditioners was due as much to the stability of the boats as the skill
of the paddlers.


> Never having paddled a folding kayak in rough seas, I
> cannot say for sure, but I have always thought that too much primary
> stability increases the chance of capsize in big steep waves or really
> nasty (by my metric) tide rips. For example, has anyone paddled a wide
> folding kayak in the tide rip behind the surf wave at Skookumchuck? Now
> that is what I call "insane waters" -- I have never seen a more confused
> mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with an occasional deep violent whirlpool.
> Even the hardcore whitewater crazies avoid that place, and choose to float
> down a 1/4 mile (in rodeo boats) before trying to cross that eddy fence.

Sounds ominous. I would not want to be in that stuff ever. Who would?

> But if one were to find themselves in an eddy fence of that magnitude, I
> would rather be in a narrow "tippy" boat with great secondary stability
> than in wide "stable" boat with high primary stability. Then I would be
> more able to react with an insta-brace.

Greater secondary stability is only as useful as the paddler's ability
to brace and use it constantly for long stretches of time. Again, it
does sound like a challenging spot for any boat. I have no way of
knowing how well a foldidng kayak would fair. I doubt that most
kayakers in skinny tippy boats would do well either. It sounds like a
place for our good friend, Superman Doug of BC!

>
> In a less extreme example, such as steep wind waves, high primary stability
> tends to make the boat lie flat relative to the local water's surface. But
> if that surface is nearly vertical (as in a steep wave), then a capsize is
> imminent unless the paddler attempts an ill-advised down-wave brace (a
> danger for shoulder dislocations). A low primary, high secondary stability
> boat can just edge into the steep wave ever so slightly, ride over it, and
> have no fear of capsize. Again, since I have never paddled a folding kayak
> in rough water, at what point does the high initial stability become a
> drawback in terms of remaining upright?

It will at some point, definitely, be a drawback at about the point the
boat was absolutely vertical on its side and would trip over its
downside sponson. I know that many hardshell kayakers are getting good
at getting their boats on their side and holding a good brace.

But I have seen folding kayaks go over nearly that much and just right
themselves. For example, it happened to me in my first months of
paddling in my double foldable. I was going into surf near Coney
Island. Fiddling with the rudder cord to drop it into the water, I let
the boat get completly sideways to a pretty decent wave. We went over
quite a bit, no bracing. I have no real idea of what degree of tilt we
had but fellow experienced paddlers on the beach later said that they
fully expected, from their own experience, that we would be windowshaded
back toward the beach. Instead the boat righted itself. I finally got
it pointed into the next wave which broke over our heads and came out
the outer side soaked.

There is no issue that a skinny boat in the hands of a very capable
experienced paddler will do well in chaotic waters because of the superb
bracing, sculling and rolling skills of the paddler using its secondary
stability. But if you only have limited, less than superb skills when
in such a tippy boat, the secondary stability will mean squat to you and
you will capsize.

In a folding kayak with its flex and stability, you can go into pretty
insane stuff and the boat will help see you through. Don't get me
wrong...folding kayaks can capsize and do. But in many instances in
rough conditions, many paddlers have come back reporting that the boat
saw them through without their doing much to keep upright much to their
amazement.

ralph diaz
--





From: "Rob Cookson"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling
a K-lite)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:00:53 -0700

Hi Kevin,

Can you name one instance where two paddlers of like skill were out in rough
water, one in a stable boat and one in a narrow boat, where the narrow boat
remained upright and the stable boat capsized?

Cheers,

--
Rob Cookson
"I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the
Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22,
1787.





Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:56:39 -0700
From: Kevin Whilden
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling
a K-lite)

Hi Rob,
You know something... I cannot name a situation like you describe. I also
cannot name the converse either. It's weird, but I have never been on a sea
kayak trip where someone has capsized unintentionally outside of the surf
zone. It seems like I either paddle with people who are very skilled
whitewater boaters, or in conditions that are very benign. I have capsized
personally on solo trips, but that doesn't help either. But it sounds like
you have an opinion on whether high initial stability can become a
liability, so let's hear it!
Kevin






From: "Rob Cookson"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling
a K-lite)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:35:09 -0700

Hello again Kevin and All,

All I can offer is what I have observed over the years teaching and leading
tours. My experience has been that with groups of paddlers with low to
moderate skill levels, the boats of lower stability capsize first.

(Though here's something funny for you, I only had one capsize in all of my
tours this year and he was in a stable single Kayak, less than 20 'from
shore in mirror calm conditions. He leaned WAYYYY over the side to look at
his rudder and sploosh over he went.)

I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert in
a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would
both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will
say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the
skinny boat capsize first.

The first sea kayak I ever paddled in rough water was a Dirigo, remember
those? 27.5" wide. I paddled the Dirigo in some pretty rough stuff and
never capsized. I have also paddled my Dawn Treader in similar conditions
and stayed upright, same same Nordkapp.

I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes a problem,
it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double
Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even
moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage.

As you and I know each other, I think you also know that my preference in
personal boats leans towards skinny tippy little craft. Why? Because they
are fun!

If you said: "Rob we're going to drop you into this hurricane and we want
you to survive as long as you can, pick a boat." I would opt for a Godzilla
or an old Response, both stable and easy to roll and control. Hey I might
as well have some fun surfing before I go!

Anyway, just things I've noticed.

Cheers,


Rob Cookson

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin






From: [John Winters]
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling
a K-lite)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:23:19 -0400

Rob wrote (or was it Kevin?) :

(SNIP)

>
> I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes a problem,
> it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double
> Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even
> moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage.
>

The point where form stability (wide and shallow vs narrow and deep)
becomes a liability occurs in breaking beam seas. My web site has a
rudimentary discussion of this and you can get the full lowdown in Marchaj's
"Seaworthiness: The Forgotten factor". The form stability increases the
capsizing moment in breaking seas and can overpower the ability of the
paddler to counteract it.

I would guess that most capsizes of folding boats occur during attention
lapses. When paddling canoes (36" wide) in the open ocean I never once had
even a mild concern. Mind, we had fairly heavy loads but the conditions
reached the "impossible to make headway level".

So long as one remains head on to seas, form stability does not cause many
problems. For this reason, those relying upon form stability usually make
use of drogues or sea anchors to keep the boat normal to seas.

This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot better in
these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers.

John Winters






From: "Rob Cookson"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling
a K-lite)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:45:37 -0700

Hi John and All,

> Rob wrote (or was it Kevin?) :

It was me. Thought this might draw you out-always a good thing. wink

> The point where form stability (wide and shallow vs narrow and deep)
> becomes a liability occurs in breaking beam seas. My web site has a
> rudimentary discussion of this and you can get the full lowdown
> in Marchaj's "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten factor". The form stability
> increases the capsizing moment in breaking seas and can overpower the
> ability of the paddler to counteract it.

I have no doubt that this holds true in theory. It is just that I have
never witnessed it in kayaking. The only reason I mention it at all is I
have heard members of the cult of the skinny boat tell new paddlers that a
skinny tippy boat is much more seaworthy than one that is more stable. I
just haven't seen a case where a kayaker was in a boat with such high form
stability that they could not lean it far enough into a breaking wave to
prevent capsize. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it.

> I would guess that most capsizes of folding boats occur during attention
> lapses. When paddling canoes (36" wide) in the open ocean I never once had
> even a mild concern. Mind, we had fairly heavy loads but the conditions
> reached the "impossible to make headway level".

Attention lapse or worse yet-incorrect response to a given condition, e.g..
leaning away from the wave while doing a high air-brace.

> This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot
> better in these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers.

Yup, that's all I'm saying.

Cheers,

--
Rob Cookson






Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:10:54 -0400
From: Steve Cramer
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re:
Rollinga K-lite)

Rob Cookson wrote:
>
> If you said: "Rob we're going to drop you into this hurricane and we want
> you to survive as long as you can, pick a boat." I would opt for a Godzilla
> or an old Response, both stable and easy to roll and control. Hey I might
> as well have some fun surfing before I go!

Funny you would say that. I was out in an area of converging waves
Sunday in my Godzilla. Talk about confused seas, waves were hitting me
from literally every direction. A couple of times I was surfed straight
away from the beach. Not big waves, but the clapotis was about eye
height.

The striking thing was, that boat is so stable I didn't need to brace or
even edge much, even when a blindside wave broke right on my shoulder.
Of course if you need to put it on edge, it's no problem to lay your ear
in the water.

Steve






Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:14:25 -0600
From: "Shawn W. Baker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks

Kevin Whilden wrote:

> I have never seen a more confused mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with
> an occasional deep violent whirlpool. Even the hardcore whitewater
> crazies avoid that place,

Ralph Diaz wrote:

> Sounds ominous. I would not want to be in that stuff ever. Who would?

Some people call that fun!

> But I have seen folding kayaks go over nearly that much and just right
> themselves.

I think it's easier in a narrower boat to regularly practice and
"establish" that tipping point so you know exactly "where" the boat is,
and how it is reacting to the water. In a very wide ("stable"wink boat, it
is more difficult to establish that edge. If you're tilted way up on
edge by an errant wave, you're trusting to the boat's secondary
stability, but not quite sure when and where (and if!) it is going to
kick in.

I'm not knocking folding boats (never paddled one) but I have a harder
time with beamy boats in confused seas than a narrower boat, but that's
just my perception.

Shawn






Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:20:35 -0600
From: "Shawn W. Baker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks

Rob Cookson wrote:

> I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert in
> a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would
> both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will
> say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the
> skinny boat capsize first.

But would said expert in the stable boat or said expert in the tippy
boat reach exhaustion first?

Shawn
And after typing that I realized it sounds a lot like the chicken/egg
question.



--
Shawn W. Baker






From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:04:43 EDT
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks

"Shawn W. Baker" writes:

> .. I think it's easier in a narrower boat to regularly practice and "establish"
> that tipping point so you know exactly "where" the boat is, and how it is
> reacting to the water. ... I'm not knocking folding boats (never paddled one)
> but I have a harder time with beamy boats in confused seas than a narrower boat,
> but that's just my perception.

Shawn, that's exactly why, in commenting Ralph Diaz's earlier post, I suggested that
bracing, sculling and rolling practice is a useful "circus act" even in a folding
boat, to be practiced right alongside assisted and unassisted rescues, which is
standard practice in the non-folding kayaking world.

Ralph C. Hoehn






From: "Rob Cookson"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:46:16 -0700

Hi Shawn and All,

> But would said expert in the stable boat or said expert in the tippy
> boat reach exhaustion first?

Ya got me Shawn. Too many variables for my small brain. Guess it all comes
down to a my expert is better than your expert contest.

I think the bottom line is find a boat that suits your needs and have fun.

> Shawn
> And after typing that I realized it sounds a lot like the chicken/egg
> question.

By the way...

I think the good Doctor Inverbon knows the answer to the chicken and egg
question. Perhaps his humble scribe could relay our burning curiosity to
him.

Cheers,

--
Rob Cookson






Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:21:25 -0400
From: Gabriel L Romeu
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks

I was in my rather narrow boat with a couple of people in those wider,
stabler boats(a Romany and a Baja) having a conversation (stationary) on
the Delaware river a couple of weeks ago, A rather large boat wake swept
us up. my boat went up and down very vertically while theirs swaggered
from side to side, I'm sure that they subconsciously compensated with
weight shifts.
I think dealing with this in rather turbulent waters for any length of
time could be fatiguing, even more so in a boat with a firm initial
stability.
It seems that my boat has no primary stability and it requires very
little effort to put and maintain a edge for a length of time. I am not
fighting that primary stability.

--

Gabriel L Romeu






From: Peter Osman
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:00:37 +1100

Rob Cookson wrote: -

> I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert
> in a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would
> both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will
> say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the
> skinny boat capsize first.

G'Day Rob,

What you say is consistent with my experience. I'm a novice who paddles both
a Klepper Aerius single and a skinny small cockpit boat called a Pittarak.
Both are delightful. In 3 foot chop the Klepper gives an effortless ride, in
the Pittarak when it is unloaded, the same chop requires me to exert a
conscious level of knee lift and very occasional bracing. The Klepper has both
good primary and secondary stability while the unloaded Pittarak has good secondary
stability. I'm told that when loaded it has good primary stability as well. I can
sometimes roll the Pittarak but not the Klepper and the Pittarak is faster. Larry
Gray, The designer of the Pittarak, can roll both with no modifications to either,
he is most definitely an expert.

For extended trips off shore and at my present level of skill I would choose
the Klepper. When I am more skilled and in the company of fast paddlers I will
use the Pittarak.

All the best, PeterO






From: "John Winters"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling
a K-lite)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:50:15 -0400

Rob wrote:
>
> I have no doubt that this holds true in theory. It is just that I have
> never witnessed it in kayaking. The only reason I mention it at all is I
> have heard members of the cult of the skinny boat tell new paddlers that a
> skinny tippy boat is much more seaworthy than one that is more stable. I
> just haven't seen a case where a kayaker was in a boat with such high form
> stability that they could not lean it far enough into a breaking wave to
> prevent capsize. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it.

Most of the people who paddle in these conditions have a lot of skill (at
least the ones who survive :-)) and I confess that I try to avoid such
conditions as much as possible although avoidance does pose problems in the
North Atlantic. To get an idea of the conditions try side surfing into a
beach in plunging breakers. :-0

> Attention lapse or worse yet-incorrect response to a given condition, e.g..
> leaning away from the wave while doing a high air-brace.

No doubt. You can find a good story about what happens in Hannes Lindemann's
"Alone at Sea" . He capsized when his sea anchor line failed. Drifted
sideways and capsized. Of course, this had nothing to do with a lack of
skill. He was sleeping at the time I think.

>
> > This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot
> > better in these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers.
>
> Yup, that's all I'm saying.

Yes, I think a lot of people leap to conclusions about what "is best" as
universal rule when it really amounts to "what works best for me and what I
do". So long as paddlers recognise the down side of a boat's stability
characteristics and allow for it they can stay out of trouble. Low form
stability boats require generally higher skill levels and more constant
attention most of the time while high form stability boats can lull one into
a false sense of security and require either a lot of attention in breaking
seas or some other means of keeping the boat normal the the sea train.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

Cheers,

John Winters






From: [John Winters]
Subject: [Paddlewise] Stability
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:25:26 -0400

I didn't have much time when I wrote my last post on this topic so left out
a lot. Some of you may find this interesting

Most articles about sea kayak stability have a diagram showing a wide kayak
that heels to follow the slope of the wave and a narrow kayak that remains
more upright. The text with the diagram usually suggests that the same
stability that makes a boat feel comfortable in flat water contributes to
capsizing in waves. Unfortunately this often misleads readers.

The water molecules in a non breaking wave travel roughly in circular orbits
around the center of the wave. This results in centrifugal force that, in
conjunction with normal gravitational force produces an apparent
gravitational force acting normal to the wave surface. Some call this the
"local" gravity and I am indebted to Bruce Winterbon for the term "apparent
gravity" which makes more sense to me. The combined forces cause the "shape"
of the wave.

A blindfolded paddler in a boat lying parallel to the wave will not sense
any heeling moment (although they may sense some motion) even though the
wave surface may have a significant slope. This causes a problem for
paddlers. Even though they may sense no heel they perceive heel visually by
observing the horizon. In response they heel the boat into the wave and in
so doing actually create a capsizing moment where none existed. You can test
this phenomenon best by observing a plumb bob against the horizon while
sitting still in a life raft.

I believe that this phenomenon may have contributed to capsizes caused by
what some researchers called "kayak angst" suffered by Inuit who paddled for
long periods of time. The paddler would sense heel visually, correct against
the apparent gravity and capsize. No doubt modern paddlers could have the
same problem.

Once the wave breaks, the situation alters as the rotational motion of the
water molecules changes to translational motion which can cause a capsizing
moment proportional to the righting arm of the boat. Note the term righting
arm rather than righting moment. Righting moment is the product of the
righting arm and displacement and acts to orient the boat to the surface.
The righting arm is a function of the boat's shape and center of gravity
without consideration for displacement. Of two boats with the same righting
arm, the heavier will have more stability or righting moment.

This difference between righting arm and righting moment leads to another
interesting and sometimes confusing aspect of stability. Due to the
centrifugal force, the apparent gravitational force varies with location on
the wave. For example, the apparent gravitational force on the trough
exceeds that of the force at the crest. Ocean sailors may have some
familiarity with this for boats heel more on the crests than in the troughs
(more than the variable wind force causes).

I have read some suggestions that, given a large enough and steep enough
wave, that the centrifugal force could counteract all gravitational force
resulting in no righting moment even while fully upright. This explains the
greater capsize vulnerability of boats in breaking beam seas and why a
strong brace becomes such a useful weapon in avoiding capsize for any boat.

So, returning to my earlier comment about the diagrams in magazines etc., a
more appropriate diagram would show the two boats in breaking seas not
smooth seas and the explanation should point out that the increased capsize
moment only applies to breaking seas and/or confusion resulting from horizon
and apparent gravity providing confusing signals to the paddler about her
orientation.

John Winters
 
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