True Story A good friend of mine was out with a group of friends. He stopped and started to take off his dry cag, Just when he got it over his head, he capsized. You can imagine the scene, an expe- rienced paddler, whom everyone knows can roll first time, is upside down. What his friends did not realise was that he was trapped and didn't have his paddle. Someone eventually decided that something was not quite right and paddled over to see what was happening. When they reached the kayak they could see
Mini-review of FeatherCraft Gemini (“AirLiner” double sit-on-top, hybrid folding-inflatable)
Yesterday I spent the day at the sea with a friend, taking his FeatherCraft Gemini for it’s maiden voyage. The weather was gorgeous, we were launching and landing at rocky beaches, and the sea was mild—swells were about 2 feet, and there was a mild surf breaking on the beaches. Shipping lanes and commercial fishing were nearby (co-located, actually), which generated some swells up to 5 or 6 feet and occasional medium waves breaking on the beaches. The ocean, here, is warmed by the Japan Current (I think that’s what it’s called)—the water temperature is reportedly 21 degrees or more from April to December. My experience on this November weekend would seem to bear that out—the water was quite comfortable without any special gear. We paddled for about 2 hours. For those who know Japan: we were at the South end of Miura peninsula, straight south of Tokyo, near Jogashima.
My friend’s FC Gemini is actually a 2002 model—I believe that’s the first year that they were offered. The workmanship could not be better. The design is excellent, with both a retractable skeg and a retractable rudder built in as standard. It fits in a single, medium-sized bag (as bag boats go), and weighs just 23 Kg. This 50-pound package is extremely portable, compared to any other 18-foot folding double that I know of. It comes with a standard cart that is fitted to the bag, and also converts for use with the assembled boat. The cart is not very good (wheels too small, frame to flexible and flimsy), but it is very stowable, and it is very nice that it is included with the boat. I understand that there is a backpack-style bag also available, at extra cost.
Setup took us over an hour, as most folding boats seem to the first time (or, in this case, the second). I’ll venture a guess that the time required could go down to 25 minutes with practice/proficiency—particulary with two regular partners. This is strictly a guess, but that guess would break down to 15 minutes for the boat, and another 10 minutes for attaching seats, etc., to the deck. As I commented in a previous post, I feel that the attaching of the seats is the clumsy aspect of the assembly process. There are just three longitudinal frame members, with all horizontal structure provided by the four large, longitudinal air chambers. Those air chambers fill very quickly with the large double-action pump that comes with the boat.
When we first launched, my friend didn’t have the rudder deployed. I am significantly heavier, I was in the front seat, and we alternated between circling left and circling right. We deployed both the rudder and the skeg, and from then on the boat was very seaworthy and seemed to track pretty well. I did not take a turn in the back seat. The boat moves quite swiftly through the water, and is surprisingly dry. I can’t be sure, since we didn’t get into any radical situations (aside from the ships and fishing boats playing chicken with us—no kidding. In the US, I would be reporting them to the Coast Guard.) It seemed to me that the boat is very seaworthy, with a strong tendency towards dynamic stability, as opposed to initial stability. I prefer my boats to emphasize dynamic stability although, owning a Klepper A2 and a Puffin, I’m usually blessed with an abundance of initial stability. Despite wakes and surf from bad angles, we never had a nervous moment. It slices through the water, and waves, very nicely.
My reservations include the amount of stowage space and the apparent lack of an arrangement for a single paddler. Even with our simple warm-weather, daytripping load, we were pressed for stowage options. I solved our biggest problem by strapping my drybag behind my seat, and ahead of his feet, which does highlight one of the nice aspects of the boat: we whacked paddles several times but, in general, there is quite good seperation between the front and rear paddles, so synchronization isn’t as crucial as in many doubles. I would guess we had over 400 pounds on the boat, and I don’t think it was even breathing hard handling that weight—as befits an 18 foot double. This boat is kept from being quite a good expedition boat only by the stowage issue.
My other reservation is that I think the boat would be severely compromised by the deflation of one of the outer two air chambers. This bothers me, and I would think long and hard about it before buying the boat. This boat is really a hybrid between an inflatable and a folder. I see deflation of air chambers as issue affecting almost all “bagboats”. I have had deflations of the sponsons in both of the folders that I own—surprisingly, it was the Klepper whose behavior became dangerous in this circumstance. At the same time, my two manufacturers, as far as I know, are the only ones that have answers to the issue of sponson deflation. Klepper and Long Haul have “Quattro” versions, which have redundant sponsons on each side (Long Haul sells redundant sponsons that any A2 owner can retrofit if serious paddling or sailing is going to be undertaken—I haven’t gone this route, but I probably should). Pakboats just introduced new sponsons for the Puffins—which I have not seen, but have had described to me—that sound like the definitive answer to this issue. Each of the two sponsons in a Puffin now has two parallel separately-inflated air-chambers, which are also patchable. Although this has added as much as 20% to the weight of new Puffins, I agree with Pakboats that the improvement is well worth it’s weight. As far as I know, none of the other manufacturers have addressed this issue, either, which leads me to feel that any strong criticism of FeatherCraft on this score would be unwarranted.
Who do I think this boat would be best for? That’s pretty easy: A couple living in a warm-water area that wants to be able to do day paddles—together—and occasionally take their boat with them on an airplane, and who has a car with a large trunk. Why a large trunk? Because I think you could leave the seats mostly attached if you were not trying to fit the hull into the bag, and thereby make it a very fast-to-assemble boat. It’s a really nice ride
I recently bought (for a good price) a K1 that no longer folds. I bought it sight unseen and was a bit shocked when I found the frame was much worse than I was lead to believe.Four of the 5 extension bars were seized.The rear deck bar was seized and after cutting the extension bars I found quite a few of the rear sections joins seized as well Replacing all the tubes would probably be over A$1000 so I had to try something else. These are the tricks I learned.
First I filled the boat with fresh water and left it for a week. I soaked some joints in Penetrene - a very thin penetrating lubricant - I soaked paper towel in this and then wrapped aluminum foil around this and left it for a few days-this did work to some degree but not on the extension sleeves. I cut out one of the extension tubes and tried quite a few things that failed. I boiled the joint for 2 hours, I used 2 pipe wrenches,I hammered it, twisted it, put a blow torch on it and cursed quite a bit. Nothing worked on the extension sleeves. Salt crystallizes in the joint and forms a strong bond with the aluminum - it is not really a corrosion situation. I soaked the tube in SaltX - a solvent for salt and while it cleans up the tubes well it did not release the joint
The bow technique worked best - place your knee on the joint and pull on the bar firmly like a hunting bow - this will open the joint a fraction. Tun it over and repeat about 20 times gradually working the joint open. Drip on a bit of Penetrene this worked on all but the sleeved joints but is not without a little risk - if you pull too hard the tube can fail or the sleeve insert can snap, Sometimes the sleeve insert comes loose but that at least frees the joint.
The damaged tubes are pretty easy to work with - you can cut and repair a tube with a sleeve made of the large diameter tube. The aluminum is easy to drill and rivet. You can buy plain tube from Feathercraft to make up the bits you need. this is what I did to fix the extension tubes. Overall the repairscost about $100.
That guy has probably left it assembled for the whole season - or may be for a few years. This is what I always say - if you plan on using a folder as a hardshell, keeping it assembled in a garage, - then get a hardshell.
Make sure you'll lubricate them before assembling, - with Bo-Shield or similar bicycle lubricant. Preferably, - not petroleum based - to prevent possible skin damage. Dave here also gave a good advice recently - on long trips rotate tubes slightly, without dissembling the boat. Rotating extention tubes will be difficult due to pushbuttons, but some of them (probably, on side stringers) are less stressed than others, so you must be able to release the push-button, rotate back and forth, and then extend the tube again without any lever. Somebody suggested a "rotating tool for K1" - sawed-off screwdriver with 0.5" tip remaining; I don't need it on Kahuna, but K1 has more parts to deal with....
I am sure the boat was put together with no lubricant at all and then left for over a year. I also have a K2 that we always lubricate well with Superlube and even when its been left for very prolonged periods it comes apart very easily.
I really wanted to point out that even in a very difficult case the tubes are pretty easy to repair if you or a friend has a drill press.
I found that if an extension tube has to be cut it is better to cut the large section. This section can then be separated from the other end by drilling out the rivets joining the two bits -you then only have to make up a new large sleeve which is pretty straight forward.
I know in future on a long trip I will take a short length of the larger tube and a few rivets.
ChrisH wrote: I know in future on a long trip I will take a short length of the larger tube and a few rivets.
Then you'll need a "rivet tool". And removing the rivet (if it hasn't fallen out) is not easy - you will need some sort of a pocket drill. May be, it is easier to take a short length of a tube that is larger than large tube, and another short tube larger than smaller tube, and few meters of wide Velcro, some fiberglass cloth, and fast-curing Epoxy. Fallen out rivets can be replaced with a short stainless screw of the same diameter, and then fixed with Veclro or Fibegrlass/epoxy, to keep it in place. Fiberglass and epoxy are very useful items - you can fix almost anything with it, - not only fallen out rivets, but also broken tubes. Regular household-grade epoxy in small tubes (mix ratio 1:1) is good enough for this purpose - it cures in 8 or 12 hours, but becomes hard enough in 2-3 hours. This cheap epoxy is easier to work with, than expensive fast-curing epoxy from marine stores, which will ruing your work if you don't do it fast enough.
Good tips Chris. I'm generally pretty careful about lubing and rinsing, but I've had a couple of seizing incidents.
Here's a technique I've used very successfully, but it only works if you can get the seized part out of the boat, which of course isn't always possible.
I use a couple of the table-top type vice grips, like these:
Having soaked the joint in fresh water and WD-40 (not at the same time!), I clamp one either side of the joint. I tighten them just to hand-tightness, no forcing. This allows you to get enough torque to gently rock the joint open, but doesn't damage the aluminium's finish at all.
Just took my Klondike appart after fall use. I wander how long the shockcords that connect the longerons will last before they start breaking down. I suppose I will worry about it when it happens, but I wouldn't mind if you could share with me your practical experience, ot thoughts on this matter. I cannot figure out what happens inside of those longerons by just looking. Any ideas and thoughts?
Shock-cords don't hold the frame together - they are there just for convenience of assembly. Shock-cord is held inside by the 8-figure knot that is placed behind the rivet (which usually holds a tubing insert). To replace a shock-cord, remove the rivet, place the knot behind it, and rivet it back again. Rivet-tool for CDN 20 from Canadian Tire will do just fine. I don't think you will have to replace some shock-cord more than once in a season, even with frequent assembling and dissembling.
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1742 Location: Southeast Michigan
My K-1 is 8 years old and has had a lot of use- the previous owner really used and abused it. No shock cord failures yet. Not surprising as the cords aren't under any load and don't have any structural function.
PS: As the only time when I had to replace it, was more than 18 months ago, here is some minor correction to whereabouts of that 8-figure knot at the end of the cord. If I recall it right, the knot is placed not just behind the rivet, but through and behind the washer that covers the end of the small diameter tubing insert.
Some disclaimer is probably needed - the failure of my cord was caused solely by my lame actions when cutting about 3mm off the keelsen tube. I couldn't extend the keelsen of Kahuna up to the last hole in the cockpit area, and even at the 2nd hole it was still extremely tight. I stopped by the factory, and they confirmed - yes, the skin was a bit tighter than needed (they prefer to err on the smaller side when making skins), and I shouldn't have worried about extending the keelsen beyond the 1st hole. Side stringers were OK, but the keelsen I had to cut slightly, since wanted it to be at the 2nd hole - perhaps just my whim. That's how the cord was damaged.
Alex, thanks for a very descriptive explanation of things in the longerons. I do not have problems with shock cords yet, but a new thing developed: I cannot assemble my Klondike! Have done it five times since I got the kayak new (early September) without any problems. Lately, I washed the frame and skin, dried everything inside in the house, rolled skin for a few days, and today attempted to assemble. Nada. I'm short about 3" to the first hole, and in the past it was smooth going to the second hole. It looks like the skin has shrunken about 4". Any ideas?
Tomorrow will talk to Feathercraft about it and keep you informed.
gregn wrote: I cannot assemble my Klondike! Have done it five times since I got the kayak new (early September) without any problems. Lately, I washed the frame and skin, dried everything inside in the house, rolled skin for a few days, and today attempted to assemble. Nada. I'm short about 3" to the first hole, and in the past it was smooth going to the second hole. It looks like the skin has shrunken about 4". Any ideas?
Tomorrow will talk to Feathercraft about it and keep you informed.
4" difference means you are doing something wrong. I had this problem with Kahuna more than once, and every time something was wrong. This skin is very dimensionally stabile. Probable cases:
Perimeter line or docking line on deck has been tightened too much, or is tangled, and holds the skin from expanding.
Something in the skin is blocking the way of tubes (tubes got caught in the pocket of sponson sleeve, or rudder cables have slack or loop under the stern deck, blocking the tubes).
Dirt in some tubes (unlikely).
Frame is inserted backwards (no offence, I've done this more than once).
Alex, thanks for another very informative reply. I went through everything very carefully. However, I gave it another try this morning and succeded to the first hole (normally I use second). So I'm still about 1" short to where I was before. I think that the skin did not shrink, but wrinkled while in storage for a few days. Now I was able to inflate the sponsoons and stretch the skin. Will leave on first hole untill next demob, or rearrangement of seats.
You made a very good point about deck lines. I also unhooked deck crosscords and opened inflation valves, as well as lubricated again extension tubes. Anyway, it was hard going!
Tomorrow we will be paddling around small islands in Sidney area. You should take a rain check and come for a visit and a little paddle one day. So many places to go around Victoria!
I remember my first "Oh No!" assembly with my Klondike. I had done all the preventitive maint, and Boe-lubed everything, washed the skin, dried it and rolled it "factory tight". The next time I assembled the boat I had the same trouble you were having. Up under the deck, fore and aft, some of the tubing had slipped out and was jammed end to end instead of one in the other. It took a several double-checks to find the problem. I actually found the disjoints by feel, before I figured it out. Surprise! That Boe-sheild do make 'em slippery!
Mike wrote: Up under the deck, fore and aft, some of the tubing had slipped out and was jammed end to end instead of one in the other. It took a several double-checks to find the problem. I actually found the disjoints by feel, before I figured it out. Surprise! That Boe-sheild do make 'em slippery!
Mike
I had this too, and there are probably some more mistakes that one can make, unnamed yet
... If something doesn't go in, then something is wrong - usually with the frame. This skin is not a Klepper's or Longahul's cotton (which shrinks when wet, but I didn't notice this to be irreversible), and it's not a Folbot type (sorry) of laminated deck fabric either. Shrinkage doesn't happen, and wrinkles take a long time to develop. Take it apart, remove it from the skin, check everything (yes, and then extend all the tubes again). I was trying to force the frame of Kahuna in, once, when it was backwards, and another time - when it caught rudder cables under the stern deck, and then one more time, when adjustable rudder downhaul bungey cord (sailing DIY addition) was set on its shorter length. HAtch sleeves might catch the frame too (don't remember if this happened to me on FC - on Longhaul it happens almost at every dissembling).
I'm trying not to keep the skin in a tight roll when not in a bag - lay it loozely on the shelf or under the sofa.
Mike, good observation with the lubricant. I was thinking about using soap, cleaned with the bottle brush and lubricated extension tubes well, then opened inflation valves. Whatever it was, did the trick.
I hope that the skin will stretch somehow with time, but as I said, the first five times were easy, just click, click, click.
Mike, your description of Klondike is right on. It is not a Porshe, but it gives me a very secure feeling in rough seas. With my 6'5" and getting old stability and safety is very important. I'm doing ok with a group of experienced paddlers in hard shells by myself, and in double configuration with my wife we are quite relaxed with the same group.
Hey Gregn.
The shockcords in your boat should last years!. My K1 was abused by it's original owner, and the 8 year old cords began to get a little bit loose. When I commented on this to Scott Gater at Feathercraft, he told me to send the tubes to them. They restrung new shockcords for free! Awesome service from these guys. But you shouldn't need this service for years to come.
Andrew, thanks for reply. I, too, have a positive feeling about the company and their products. Hope that I will not need to restring the cords in the near future.
Cape Cod is the bared and bended arm of Massachusetts: the shoulder is at Buzzard's Bay; the elbow, or crazy-bone, at Cape Mallebarre; the wrist at Truro; and the sandy fist at Provincetown,—behind which the State stands on her guard, with her back to the Green Mountains, and her feet planted on the floor of the ocean, like an athlete protecting her Bay,—boxing with northeast storms, and, ever and anon, heaving up her Atlantic adversary from the lap of earth,—ready to thrust forward her other fist, which keeps guard the while upon her breast at Cape Ann.
Hi all.
This is my first time taking folding kayaks on vacation. We will be flying within the US and will be checking our kayaks as baggage. Ours are both Pakboats, a Puffin Swift and a an XT-15. I am prepared to cope with size and weight restrictions and the costs of violating them. My real concern is that the aluminum frame components are rugged enough to be "baggage handled". Should I trust the factory suppled duffle (or similar) to keep the contents safe? Or should I assume that I MUST put these bits in a hard-ish sided case? Does anyone have horror stories to share? Or have y'all done this lots and lots with no issues?
Your thoughts, please?
Cheers,
jomo
John Morrison
Auburn, ME USA
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
John,
Can't speak to Pakboats specifically, but I have travelled a dozen times or so with Feathercraft Kahuna and Klepper A1. Never a problem, although I always take precautions. I wrap both ends of the long pieces/tubes with a towel and wrap that in Gorilla tape. I cinch everything together with extra web belts on the outside of the bag to keep everything from moving inside the bag. And I expect that the travel bag will arrive badly scuffed and sometimes frayed, and I get what I expect! But I have never had any damage to the boats. Hope your travels are safe!
g
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Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
We’ve had some horror stories in the past about TSA unpacking frames and destroying them in the repacking. It’s a good idea to firmly bundle your frame pieces together in case TSA wants to take them out of the bag.
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Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster
forum fan Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:17 am Posts: 18
I have done it a lot without problem. Some advices :
- Keep your bags under the 50 lbs limit and pay for an extra bag if you have to instead of an overweight bag. The heavier your bags, the more risky it is for the frame.
- If you have small plastic frame parts like hatch opening, take them in your carry-on luggage.
- Keep in mind that your bags will probably get opened and repacked by TSA. Make it easy for them to repack.
- If asked, don't say the word KAYAK. It can cost you lots of $$$. I know firsthand. Surfski is a much better term if you really have to tell what's Inside the bags. Most attendants don't know what a surfski is.
paddler Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:58 pm Posts: 7
Thank you, folks, for your input. Your experiences and suggestions are about as I imagined, feared and hoped. All in all, not a cakewalk but not bad.
Off like a herd of turtles...
JoMo
forum fanatic Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:10 pm Posts: 73
I often fly with Pakboats, both canoes and kayaks - mostly on international flights to (and in) Germany and Norway. My flights have never had damage to the boats, but we have had damage to the bag. If you travel with a Swift and an XT, you may want to get a larger bag for the Swift and move enough XT parts into the Swift bag to bring the weight up to 50 pounds. That may save you some money, and the XT will become less vulnerable to damage from rough handling.
forum fanatic Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 pm Posts: 39
During the past year, on two separate flights, I have taken two Folbots from the US to Montenegro - a Greenland II and an Aluet - on Turkish Airlines, and they did not charge me a dime! They are very generous in their attitude to sports equipment. Both times it was in addition to my two 50 lb bags. (Most airlines only allow one 50 lb bag these days.) To protect the aluminium tubes, I wrapped and strapped them in two cheap ($6) foam sleeping mats from Walmart. The mats will be useful as beach mats.
On both flights, everything arrived safely.
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Jack Charity
Folbots: Greenland, Aluet, Cooper
Two Atlyaks
Kleppers: Passat and Master
Inflatables: Coleman and Intex
Rigid: Mirror dinghy, Chrysler 23 and Westerly GK29
paddler Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:58 pm Posts: 7
Specifically to KOK but to all,
We are just now on our maiden voyage with the 2 Pakboats craft. The trip down to Florida was uneventful, both for us and for our luggage. I thank everyone for their input. We found a large LLBean rolling duffle that meets airline criteria and then a HUGE Cabella's rolling suitcase that barely makes it. I was able to put the side trusses of the XT in the bottom of the suitcase stuffed with skivvies, socks,etc. I filled the top half of the suitcase with my regular luggage. The rest of the XT, along with kit, fit comfortably into the Bean duffle. Each of my pieces weighed about 40 ish pounds. My wife put the smaller boat entirely in the Bean duffle and used the big Cabella's case for her stuff. We flew Southwest, who allows two checked bags each. Yum.
I had no adventures with TSA folks, that I know of. I packed a copy of the assembly instructions with each parcel so that the folks could figure out what they were dealing with. So far so good. I hope it's as painless going home again. In the meantime, I have found it wonderful to be able to paddle without thoughts of rentals, guides, Piecesd o' Crap, car topping and all the rest.
Hot Dog! Life IS Good!
Thanks again, everyone.
John Morrison
mrjomo
I just got back from taking my smallest folder and all the kit for it as checked airline baggage on a trip from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, to Yorkshire, England (landing at Manchester). Partly to keep a record myself for further reference on packing for such trips, I made a Flickr album showing how and what I managed to pack to get in under the airline dimension and weight allowances for a free checked bag.
As it turned out, Icelandair, the carrier I used, would have actually allowed me TWO such bags for free on a transatlantic flight but I did not know that when I prepped for the trip. Good to know for when I take one of my larger kayaks (28 pound Quest or 37 pound Wisper) overseas, since I would not be able to pack all of the necessary gear in a single bag with those.
By the way -- props to Icelandair, a very good experience flying with them, including the chance to see Greenland and Iceland from the air (and they offer free 1 to 7 day layovers in Iceland if you want for not additional charge.) Roundtrip air that i purchased 3 months in advance was only $670. Definitely a better way to get to Europe than the long direct flights to the continent from the US east coast. It does add a couple of hours for the layover in Reykjavik but I would rather take multiple flights and be able to move around in an airport between than be trapped in a seat for 7 to 10 hours. Next time I go I will plan to do the Iceland multi-day layover. Since I was solo this trip I opted not to this time. Solo hiking in Iceland did not seem too wise.
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am Posts: 222
Icelandair rocks, indeed! It is one of the best companies we flew with. Their cargo operation is just as good. We sent the U-Boat from NYC to Greenland via cargo and we had a good experience both ways.
They work very well with their sister company "Air Iceland" and their first cousin "Norlandair". Excellent companies all three of them. Anybody willling to take the yak and gear to Greenland, or up north, I strongly recommend these companies and also the impeccable chopper rides offered by Air Greenland. They managed to fit and transport our monster cases in their choppers...
Kudos to all of them for their professionalism!
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm Posts: 453
I for one am impressed. Did you manage to meet up with any of the paddling folk over in the UK while you were there? Where did you paddle? (I was abroad at the time, I'm sorry to say.) I like the idea of visiting my family in North American and stopping off for a layover in Iceland. Bringing a folding kayak would be fun.
All the best,
Ian
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Yes, idc, I did indeed connect with the great folks of the Malton & Norton Canoe Club. They had reached out to me when I posted an intro on the "Song of the Paddle" forum less than 2 weeks before I left for the UK. I had given them the address of my rental cottage and ETA and less than an hour after I had settled into the place, club member Paul Lister (who had contacted me through the forum) and his wife Linsey knocked on my door and welcomed me!
Since they were all working that week, we planned to paddle on the following weekend. On Saturday we put in on the River Rye, less than a mile from my cottage, and paddled to the junction with the River Derwent and as far as the club boathouse, which is right on the river beside the bridge between the adjacent towns of Malton and Norton. On Sunday we started early from the boathouse and continued downstream, with kayaks and canoes, on the Derwent to Howsham Mill, a cleverly restored stone medieval grain mill that has been converted to a mini hydro power plant with a paddle driven generator and two Archimedes Screws -- Paul is one of the Mill project trustees. Part of the Mill restoration included creating a whitewater slalom park in the millrace outlet -- the British are very good at building diverse recreational options and public parks into their infrastructure and historical sites.
As it turned out, the canoe club has so much group gear that I actually could have just borrowed a kayak from them (instead of lugging my folder with me) or joined them in one of the tandem canoes, which I actually did for half of the second day, leaving my folder at the halfway point at Paul and Linsey's house which is right on the river where we stopped for lunch and picking it up later on the way back with the shuttle. There was a downriver kayak race going on that day upriver from where we were -- it really is a very active club!
The paddling was great, all flatwater except for a tiny rapid at the Rye launch and two weirs (low head dams), which like many in Europe, were constructed as low angle ramps so that they can be safely descended by kayaks and canoes without the deadly hydraulics that are created in standard straight drop dams (like the one that killed two young kayakers 10 days ago here in Pittsburgh.) We had terrific weather and the water was warm -- very picturesque scenery: cows and sheep, quaint towns and cottage farms, the ruins of ancient abbeys, swans and wild flowers -- there were quite a few snags since earlier rains had caused a lot of willows to collapse across the narrow rivers, but we were able to push over all of them. The outings were a high point in the trip for me and I really enjoyed the company -- invited any of them to look me up if they ever come to the states. In fact, Paul's dad (with whom I paddled a tandem canoe) was just visiting Yorkshire at the time and lives in Florida most of the year.
I've been sorting through hundreds of photos I took during the trip and once I get some albums posted to Flickr I will post a link (files are too big to post on here.)
I definitely want to go back to Great Britain and paddle some more --next time will hopefully be with a companion and one of my folding sea kayaks to do some more ambitious waters. And I will take the Iceland layover option next time if they still offer it. I didn't this time because I was solo and did not think camping, hiking and paddling in Iceland's rugged terrain alone would be a great idea.
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Oh, forgot to mention that I got to see Greenland during the overnight flight from Boston to Reykjavik -- I had nodded off but awoke in time to watch the rugged black mountains pushed up through the vast swaths of glaciers glowing below in the moonlight -- it was magical! I had hoped to see the Greenland coast again in daylight during my return flight but got stuck in a middle seat section in a jumbo jet and could not see anything -- and the people seated on the north side windows kept them closed so they could watch TV!!! Go figure....
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
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Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Both Greenland and an extended trip to Iceland are on my "bucket list".
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
faltbootemeister Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:31 pm Posts: 144
Great work. I just took a Folbot Citibot to Morocco. You did better than I. But I managed to pack in a two person tent and air-mattress along with camp gear.
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Having the separate decks and the older models have ingenious folding coamings, make Pakboats very easy to pack compared to other folders. I love my Feathercraft Wisper but it's a pain in the butt to pack compactly.
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forum fanatic Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 pm Posts: 39 Kudos to Turkish Airlines!
On my most recent trip to our other home in Kotor, Montenegro, they transported my Folbot Greenlander, packed into its two original bags, free! Perhaps because the bags were non-standard size and weight compared to regular luggage, they were the first to come off at Podgorica. Completely undamaged, and both bearing stickers from the TSA stating that they had been examined by them, which explained why none of my original cable ties were present.
Always willing to have paddlers stop over with us, so contact me if you are planning a trip to the Balkans.
Pardon my braggadocio, but I'm very proud of my personal best just achieved (after 3 unpack-repack attempts) to fit EVERYTHING I will need for kayaking on my upcoming trip to the UK (via Iceland) into a bag that meets all the most recent restrictive airline parameters for the "free bag". This will be the first overseas flight for this boat.
Believe it or not, this stuffed 30" x 18" x 14" rolling duffel, weighing 48 pounds, contains all of the following:
- 12' Pakboat Puffin folding kayak
- 4-piece Cannon carbon kayak paddle
- inflatable roof rack and straps (for rental car -- I reserved a Citroen C4 Cactus station wagon)
- PFD
- full spray skirt
- knee high Kokatat paddling boots
- Speedo swimsuit and rashguard shirt
- Goretex paddling pants and jacket
- Hydroskin jacket
- kayaking gloves and hat
- 2 inflatable flotation bags for the kayak
- hand pump to inflate kayak tubes and roof rack
- two dry bags
- cable lock (to secure kayak to car)
I didn't think to lay out all the stuff and photograph it before the final packing, but I might do that when I get to Yorkshire (providing the bag survives the journey).
The duffel itself was a great find at $34.99 at a Ross Dress for Less store, which always have great deals on brand name large rolling duffels for some reason -- this is a Lucas and is very well constructed. The single full length side pocket is foam padded and handily fits a 4-piece paddle and the rolled up spray skirt and float bags for more cushioning.
Now, fingers crossed to see what the troglodyte baggage handlers can do to it on the 3 legs of my journey.
Attachments:
packed_kayak copy.jpg [ 91.82 KiB | Viewed 65 times ]
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Though I got it for under $45 on line somewhere. It worked quite nicely and was very compact to travel with. I rented a Citroen Cactus wagon, which has a long low flat roof with lateral factory bars. The inflatable crossbars strapped through the inside of the car across the ceiling and run under the lateral bars. They cushioned the boat and protected it from scuffing the rental car. I strapped the boat to the factory bars on the car but also strapped it to the d-rings attached to the inflatable rack tubes and did bow and stern lines to the bumpers.
If you had a car without the factory bars, you could also run long lash straps for the boat through the roof or rely on secure bow and stern attachments to the car as backup to the strapping to the inflatable rack. I would not use the rack alone for any heavy boat but it was ideal for a folder. It was very nicely made and looks like it should hold up well. I can see it being useful for any car owner who doesn't have a permanent rack on their car -- it fits in its own little stuff sack and can fit in a glove box or under the seat. Takes just minutes to inflate and strap on. Cool product.
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm Posts: 616 Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Thanks fior that. What a brilliant idea and one that might come in handy for my trip back to NZ this August - I'm taking a folder back with me for the first time and assembling it in a nice warm garage rather than heavy rain sounds like much more fun
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Here's a follow-up album of photos showing everything I packed in that bag with the folding kayak that I took from the US to the UK, plus some shots of paddling there and how I used the inflatable Malone roof rack on the rental car. I have to say that IcelandAir took good care of the checked bag and everything came back intact:
I've flown in the past with my Feathercrafts in their backpack bags and a separate duffel with PFD and clothing. I'm taking a trip next month to Lake Tahoe with a friend my two smaller folders (Pakboat Puffin Sport and Quest 135). With the increases in charges for extra baggage since my last such trips I'm trying to pack everything we'll need in one bag each.
I was able to get the Puffin, a 4 piece paddle, some dry wear, sprayskirt and flotation bags into a friends large rolling duffel, but there was not enough room for a PFD which we will have to cram in our carry-ons. Last night I picked up the largest rolling bag I could find (fortunately on the clearance rack at TJ Maxx) that made it under the 62" combined dimension restriction for standard bag. It seems to be just slightly larger than the bag the Quest came in so I'm hoping I can squeeze everything one paddler needs in that one. I also have a collapsible Samsonite dolly that I could use alternatively with the big Feathercraft backpack bag (since the Wisper is not coming with us). But then I have to worry about stashing the dolly in the bag as well before checking it.
This project made me wonder how other folder owners handle flying with their packed boats. Any useful tips and cautions for packing and dealing with airport baggage handling?
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
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lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm Posts: 616 Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
I'm afraid I use really big bags for flying my kayaks around so can't be much help there. However, after my brand new extra large dry bag got cut badly by the ends of my Fujita's frame tubes on the flight from Italy to Sri Lanka, I would really recommend wrapping something around the tips of any frame tubes that don't have plastic button tips
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Already got cheap tickets to Reno on American. So I guess I should not whine about having to pay extra baggage charges. Appreciate the tip on padding sharp frame parts. I'll stick the dry bags in outside pockets or in my carry-on to be on the safe side.
It looks like the biggest rolling bag under the 62" unified measurement (18" x 12" x 32" may fit even the Wisper and most of the gear once judiciously folded and layered (the standard FC backpack is 18" x 10" x 37" but since I don't have the old-style solid coaming I can go shorter.) I snagged a Samsonite collapsible luggage dolly with a 70# rating from a TJ Maxx clearance table (for $16) that I could use with the FC pack too and hope the airline doesn't get pissy about the extra 3".
Though with the water temp at Tahoe reported at 43 today, I've been wondering if it's just plain folly to take the kayaks anyway this early in the season. The dry gear is proving to be as bulky as the boats to pack. Maybe we should just stick to hiking and photography this trip. Would certainly simplify packing.
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:36 pm Posts: 248 Location: west burbs of Chicago
Don't be afraid to admit that the hassle of gearing up for cold weather paddling via airplane is perhaps more than it's worth.
I've paddled in that kind of weather and found it really fun
But
I went to the water via car so hauling all the extra cold weather gear was no big deal. The hassle factor was essentially nil.
The bulk of the dry gear could make the airplane thing a real pain in the neck.
Go for what's most fun with least hassle.
Bring back some great hiking pictures for us to enjoy.
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Five Folbots - Super TSF, two GIIs, Kodiak, Gremlin
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
By mid May, people are usually swimming in Tahoe. If you really feel the need for a drysuit, you can rent from Tahoe Eco Sports/EnviroRents in Kings Beach
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Good idea, Chuck. I'll give them a call. I really would like to have the option to kayak, especially around Emerald Bay, and the kayak concessions don't open until Memorial Day apparently (and I don't care for the usual sit on top liveries anyway.) But packing my own dry suit is proving to be a hassle and I only have semi dry wear to loan my friend -- I have 3/4 mm wetsuits we could both wear but they are even bulkier to pack. Perhaps the drysuits seem like overkill to you, but with just the two of us, and her a relative newbie to paddling, I'm concerned an assisted rescue if one was needed would be time-consuming and therefore result in extended immersion. We would likely stay along the shore and not attempt any wide crossings. But cold is cold, even 20 feet from shore.
Since you've lived at Tahoe, I do trust your experience. Hard to believe many people swim in 40 to 50 degree water -- are the surface temps a lot higher then? And is the southern part of the lake warmer than the northern in general? We're staying right on the beach in Tahoe City.
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska KerryOnKayaks wrote: Good idea, Chuck. I'll give them a call. I really would like to have the option to kayak, especially around Emerald Bay, and the kayak concessions don't open until Memorial Day apparently (and I don't care for the usual sit on top liveries anyway.) But packing my own dry suit is proving to be a hassle and I only have semi dry wear to loan my friend -- I have 3/4 mm wetsuits we could both wear but they are even bulkier to pack. Perhaps the drysuits seem like overkill to you, but with just the two of us, and her a relative newbie to paddling, I'm concerned an assisted rescue if one was needed would be time-consuming and therefore result in extended immersion. We would likely stay along the shore and not attempt any wide crossings. But cold is cold, even 20 feet from shore.
Since you've lived at Tahoe, I do trust your experience. Hard to believe many people swim in 40 to 50 degree water -- are the surface temps a lot higher then? And is the southern part of the lake warmer than the northern in general? We're staying right on the beach in Tahoe City.
Tahoe City is on the NW shore. Water temp is already about 50. You can always wear your drysuits through airport security and stow them in the overhead bins.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
If you bring 2 bags each and split the load, you should be fine. Just pay the extra bag fee. It would be cheaper than renting gear. Or mail your gear ahead
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
After fiddling around some more today, it appears I can get everything into 1 medium and 2 large bags that would have to be checked. That's $85 each way. Since single day kayak rental is $75 and a drysuit is $45 per diem (not to mention the time hassle of picking up and returning them) cost-wise the baggage fees are a no-brainer.
Guess I would rather have the boats and not end up using them than get there and regret leaving them home.
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
It depends where you're going, for how long and what you plan to enjoy doing there. Two years ago we took a Long Haul and all the food and camping gear needed for an independent paddling trip on the east coast of Greenland. Winter clothing and tons of gear that had to be divided into heavy duty hard shell containers and shipped a month before the trip... Not sure you may like our solution.
Many times, bags seem to invite problems, from theft of small items stored inside, to damage caused by mishandling.
Folders seem OK on most airlines when one has no need to carry additional expedition gear for cold/remote conditions.
As much as we love and worship our U-Boat (Long Haul yak), this summer we'll leave the beloved folder at home and try to find/rent most of the gear locally at destination just because we want to avoid the logistics needed to ship it to a remote destination.
We decided to use the folder only for driving destinations.
Sorry, I just realized that my info didn't help you.
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Actually, I do appreciate your insights. I have read that people who take their folders on serious expeditions will tend to ship them ahead in hardshell locking cases. That is probably what I would do in a similar situation. In fact I often take the shipping option on vacation outings. I had a lot of camping gear to use for an archaeology field dig out West that I volunteered for some years ago and I arranged to have a large duffel of the heavier and bulkier items boxed and shipped ahead via insured UPS to the small motel I was going to be staying at the first night in town. -- they kindly allowed me to do so and securely stashed the package in their utility room until I arrived And when I buy or collect a lot of stuff on vacation (especially books, fossils and geology samples) I will mail them from my destination before packing to head home.
This trip I will be experimenting with packing the kayaks in large rolling suitcases instead of the manufacturer supplied bags or backpacks. I think the frames of the bags will offer more protection and the zippers can be locked against baggage handler pilferage. Since we will only be day touring I don't have to pack all the camping gear.
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
Two of those and you could darn near take two boats splitting up the parts properly. How long are your longest rods?
d
I have two SKB, one for the skin, ribs, seats, rudder, leeboard, amas, all the camping equipment, PFDs, dry bags, kitchen, water dromaderies, and just about everything else. The second case is long and slender for gunwales, paddles, mast segments and akas.
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm Posts: 1398 Location: South Salem, NY
I was wondering if the cases were long enough for the frame parts... good to know. So are you generally happy with their performance and durability?
Extremely happy. On the trip to Greenland, they took four cargo flights, different fork lifts, one helicopter ride, two boat rides, a rough truck ride from which they were, unfortunately, thrown to the ground by a lazy driver and they kept all the gear protected. They are scratched, a latch is slightly bent, the locks (not part of the cases) didn't make it through the full back and forth trip...
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Tahoe trip update: In the end, we elected to NOT take the folders and gear to Tahoe. My co-traveler on the trip is a novice and not a strong enough paddler for the kind of outings I like so it seemed like too much baggage and hassle for this particular trip. We rented for a half day instead.
As it turned out, my concerns about cold water were for naught. It was very sunny and mild while we were there and the shallower water along the north shore was so warm I was completely comfortable wading out up to my waist in water shoes and nylon pants. We had a nice half day paddle outing from EcoRents to Crystal Bay and back in a tandem sit on top (or rather, I paddled, she took photos).
I loved Tahoe and definitely plan to go back, next time with a boat and gear. It was a good scouting trip and we did a lot of hiking and covered the surrounding area with road trips from Virginia City to Kit Carson Pass to Truckee to Squaw Valley.
By the way, TChuck, Harry King of Erents says "hi". Your name came up when we were talking about folders and he forwarded me your "seal love" shot.
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
faltbootemeister Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm Posts: 164
Excellent topic. A couple of times I have flown to and from Alaska to work at a National Park. I shipped ahead a large box but took the maximum allowable on board the aircraft. I wore cargo pants and a large parka with pockets stuffed full of dense items. I never had a problem with the airline. I wonder if a pfd could be worn onto an aircraft, then stuffed into the overhead or placed in one's lap?
A couple of years ago Ann and I flew from Anchorage to King Salmon and return with a Folbot Aleut and a Balogh sail rig. Alaska Air did not consider the bags oversize. I padded the bags with clothing and added items until each bag weighed 50#. I witnessed an airline agent in King Salmon heave the bags a few feet to clear an existing luggage pile. All equipment survived undamaged.
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Ann and me
Folbots: Too many. It's embarrassing.
Feathercraft: Aeronaut
Klepper: AEI - Jonathan Waterman's boat
Hardshells x6
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
Strap all the frame parts together tightly so that they come out of the bag in one assembly. Otherwise you run the risk of having TSA inspectors destroy your frame, as happened to a Forum member several years ago. Not only did the TSA destroy enough of his frame that his trip was ruined, they claimed immunity from having to pay for the damage they did, and if I recall correctly, the baggage insurance company refused as well.
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Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Good information, Michael.
I learned the hard lesson long ago that Federal security and customs agencies have NO obligation to compensate citizens for destruction of property, even if no contraband is discovered. 40 years ago I took a vacation trip to Ontario from the US with two friends, a couple who had just bought a very pristine vintage Jaguar touring sedan two weeks earlier, which we took on the trip. While the wife and I went to museums and hiked, the husband was driving around to car dealers buying parts for the Jag and for other British cars in his collection. When we were crossing the border back into the US, we were waved aside for further inspection (likely because the male member of our party had a long pony tail and beard). They ordered us out of the car, searched our handbags and began to dismantle the car. Within minutes we were informed that we were going to be detained because a cannabis seed had been found in the track under one of the car seats AND several pills ("p i l l s" is what I typed-- don't know why the site text autocorrect transposes this word to "poodles"which one of us was carrying had tested positive as amphetamine (never mind that they were prescription allergy medication in a bottle with the RX label on it.) We were then strip searched and made to sit on chairs 8 feet away from each other behind the customs counter for almost 3 hours while they continued to dismantle the interior of the Jaguar outside on the tarmac. We were terrified and people were staring at us as if we were the minions of the French Connection.
Fortunately, a senior customs office (who had been away at a meeting while his overzealous young agents were on this witch hunt) returned and challenged his officers as to why we were being detained. I overheard him reading them the riot act for not using a new testing kit they had which would have verified that our pills (there are the danged "poodles" again) were indeed the medications their label implied and he also reminded them that a single cannabis seed in the remote reaches of a vehicle was not grounds for a costly contraband search. He apologized to us and released my companions' vehicle, but explained that there was nothing they could do about the damage that was caused to it by the search and cautioned us that there was no legal recourse for any of it. The damage included interior panels pulled off in such a way that fasteners were broken or stripped off, burl veneers that were cracked and split and leather upholstery and carpet that had been sliced. They had also opened all the boxes of car parts and just dumped them willy-nilly in the boot.
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Current:
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Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
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Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
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Last edited by KerryOnKayaks on Sat May 21, 2016 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm Posts: 1716 Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
That is an infuriating story, to put it mildly. If you want to amplify your anger, google the term "asset forfeiture" (something that CBP and USBP use constantly). And with that, I am far too close to getting political in this forum, and will now back away from the subject.
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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Bizarre glitch on this forum with text "autocorrect". In my story above I was describing prescription tablets -- p-i-l-l-s -- which the customs police mistook for illegal drugs. But for some reason the site text editor converts the word "p i l l s" to "poodles"!!! When I open the text for editing it reads correctly as "p i l l s" in each instance but as soon as I close the post the word pops up as "poodles" again. Never had that happen.
And no, we were NOT smuggling contraband yappy little dogs.
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Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
Ah... there's a translate table set up to remove offensive language and certain spam content, and I'm afraid it may be a little overzealous. I may remove that particular translation. But then again, I might not. Too much entertainment value
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Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Aah, makes sense now. The filter is set up to convert spam to posts for "erectile disfunction poodles"? The mind boggles at that prospect......
_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
Bingo. I've removed that filter so you can say "pills" now but there are quite a few that have yet to be triggered.
We purchased a folding kayak in the Summer of 2012, after two years of thinking about it and several months of research. Our choice of boat was based upon four criteria. First, it had to be a two-person boat. Next, it had to be expedition-capable, meaning it had to have a large load capacity, be of solid construction, and lend itself to repairs in the field. Third, the boat had to be light enough, and pack away small enough, that it could be transported as baggage on commercial aircraft. Finally, the boat had to be capable of accepting a sailing rig that could also be shipped as baggage.
The choice of boats came down to three: the Aerius Quattro II by Klepper, the K2 Expedition by Feathercraft, and the Mark II Quattro by Long Haul Kayaks. This last one is a close relative of the Klepper — Long Haul’s owner sold and repaired Kleppers before starting his own company, and that experience is reflected in his boats. All three kayaks appeared to be quality products that met our criteria, so the final decision was made on cost. Here, the Long Haul kayak was the clear winner, with a price tag of about USD $4,800. This was USD $500 less than the Klepper, and USD $2,500 less than the Feathercraft.
Construction and delivery of the boat took eight weeks, and everything arrived in good order. Long Haul had thrown in some additional items at no cost, including extra sponsons and upgraded seats. We watched the video on assembly and disassembly, practiced the procedure in our house, and found the boat fairly easy to construct.
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In late August of 2012, we took the kayak on its maiden voyage in the Bahamas’ Exuma Cays. The kayak spent eighteen days on the water, during which we paddled from Great Exuma to Compass Cay and back, camping on beaches along the way. Our route kept us on the southwestern, lee side of the island chain. The straight-line, round-trip distance was about one hundred nautical miles; although the paddling distance was likely twice that, as we followed irregular shorelines in order to reduce our exposure to wind and waves. Our longest days of paddling were twenty nautical miles of straight-line distance. Fully loaded with water, food, and us, the boat weighed in at 570 pounds — 330 pounds less than its specified maximum capacity.
We were affected by two storms during the trip. We weathered Hurricane Isaac by holing-up on a remote cay for three days, and we dealt with less-than-ideal weather and water conditions during the days before and after that storm’s passage. On the final day of the trip, we dealt with significantly heightened wave activity, produced by Hurricane Leslie as she passed east of the Bahamas.
During most of the trip, we experienced two to three foot swells, topped by sometimes-breaking wind waves. Wind speeds were typically in the mid-teens (except during Hurricane Isaac, when we experienced sustained winds in the sixties and seventies). Wind directions were southeasterly to easterly; and the seas were following during our outbound leg, which had us heading northwest and up the island chain.
There are many channels, or cuts, between the islands; and transiting them was often a significant physical challenge. The cuts exposed us to larger waves and the full force of the wind, and tidal changes sometimes turned channels into fast-moving rivers. Hard paddling was required to clear these things, with the rear paddler calling a cadence to keep everyone in synch.
We managed to avoid all but one surf landing during the trip. That one exception came on the last landing of the last day, and it involved three-foot breaking waves. The landing was not gracefully done, and it produced a moment of minor mayhem. Only our pride was damaged, and we were thankful for a beach free of spectators.
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Finding the right stowage configuration was a real challenge during our preparations for the trip, and this was largely a function of finding the right dry bags. Two of the dry bags we used were tapered Seal Line Kodiak Sacs. We used the 35L long bag in the bow, forward of the first rib; and we used the 35L wide bag in the stern, aft of the seventh rib. They were a decent fit, and they kept their contents dry.
Another bag we used was the NRS Outfitter Dry Bag in 62L size. We placed it in the stern, under the deck, between the sixth and seventh ribs. It is a well-constructed bag, but it is a little too big in diameter for this application. It could not be packed and then slid into place. Instead, the empty bag had to be inserted into the boat, and then the contents inserted into the bag. It worked, but is was a pain in the ass. We have since purchased a replacement bag, the NRS Expedition DriDuffel in size “small.” In a test packing, it slid easily into place.
Protecting Jen’s camera equipment was a real concern, and she opted to leave her best-quality equipment at home during this maiden voyage. Instead, she brought a waterproof point-and-shoot and an old DSLR camera. The DSLR was stored in a small dry bag, which was then packed into the NRS Outfitter Dry Bag. The camera stayed safe from the elements, but it was packed away in a manner that made it inaccessible while paddling. We have since acquired what we think is a better solution, one that will allow her to bring her best cameras. That solution is a Watershed Chattooga Dry Duffel with liner. It fits well under the forward deck, between the first and second ribs, in a location from which Jen can access her cameras while paddling.
We quickly discovered that we needed an easily-accessible bag to carry our lunch, along with the stove, gas bottle, pots, and utensils needed to cook and eat it. During the trip, we improvised a solution with a spare dry bag, but what we really needed was a decent deck bag. We have since purchased a NRS Taj M’Haul Deck Bag. We have yet to give it a field trial, but in a practice load-out it seemed to attach well to the boat’s forward deck.
On the aft deck, we used a large, shapeless, mesh laundry bag to hold our snorkel gear and wet clothes. The bag was secured under the deck’s bungee cords. It worked, but not well. We have since purchased a mesh duffel bag for this purpose, with a size and shape that fits the deck and the intended contents.
Another storage problem was drinking water, as there are few freshwater sources in the Exuma Cays. We used MSR 10-liter Dromedary Bags, and they are a good size for placing in the bottom of the boat. We carried five bags on the trip: one between the first and second ribs; two under Jen’s legs, between the second and third ribs; and two under my legs, between the fourth and fifth ribs. This configuration gave us a six-day storage capacity.
We used Camano paddles, manufactured by Werner. They are two-piece paddles with fiberglass blades and straight, carbon shafts. We appreciated their light weight, and they performed well under all conditions. For transport, we packed the paddles into the bag that contained the boat’s long frame components. This worked, but it also added to the challenge of keeping the bag’s weight under fifty pounds. Three-piece paddles may be in our future, as they could be packed in a shorter, lighter bag.
We acquired inexpensive paddle leashes manufactured by Harmony, which attach to the boat by plastic clips. They did the job, although they were never tested severely. We think more robust leashes are also in our future.
We used fingerless paddling gloves by Warmers and NRS. Both worked as advertised.
For personal flotation devices (PFD’s), we acquired a men’s Trekker and a women’s Flo, both manufactured by Stohlquist. The backs of these PFD’s are half mesh, half flotation; with the flotation material high enough to ride above the back of the kayak’s seats. They were a comfortable fit all the way around, and we had no problems with their construction during the trip.
We carried a Paddlers Bilge Pump, manufactured by Seattle Sports. It was never put to a real test, as we were never capsized or swamped. But we did have occasion to use it for removing accumulated rainwater, and it seemed to work well for the size and type of pump that it is. As to potential problems, there is a metal pin that joins the handle to the piston, and it is rusting rather nicely. The two other visible metal fittings show no rust at all, so the pin in question must be a poor metal for this application.
A piece of equipment that we wished we had was a platform or clamp that would allow the forward paddler to securely lay her paddle across the forward cockpit coaming. Jen takes photographs, and whenever she did the natural thing with her paddle before grabbing a camera — the natural thing being to lay the paddle across the cockpit coaming, in front of her — the paddle was eventually caught by wind, wave, or motion. It would then slide and pivot on the coaming, send one its blades aft to hit me, and flop into the water Securing the paddle to the boat’s existing deck anchor points is not a viable alternative, as it takes too long and both paddlers to get it done properly. What is needed is a simple, secure holder into which the paddle can be laid, and that can be attached to the coaming without modification. We have yet to find an appropriate commercial product, and we may end up constructing one of our own.
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When we purchased the kayak, our vision for its use involved loading it on planes, along with all our equipment, and flying to overseas destinations. While that vision is still alive, transporting the boat as commercial airline baggage proved more challenging than we had expected.
The boat packs into three bags from the manufacturer: a large, squarish bag for the skin that comprises the hull and deck; a large, long bag for the long components of the kayak’s frame; and a smaller bag for the frame’s ribs and the rudder components. The spray skirt, seats, and seat cushions are intended to be packed into the skin bag. There are three canvas inner-bags to further protect the skin, the long keel pieces, and the remaining long frame pieces. We purchased the upgraded, heavy-duty packing bags, which are better-able to handle life as airplane baggage. When everything is packed as intended by the manufacturer, only the small bag with the ribs and rudder assembly meets size and weight restrictions for flights between the United States and the Caribbean. Both the skin bag and the long bag exceed weight allowances, and the long bag also exceeds size allowances.
As of this writing, for flights between the United States and the Caribbean, the baggage weight and size allowances are fifty pounds and a combined measurement (length + width + height) of sixty-two inches. Fees are charged for exceeding these allowances. On the carrier we used, an item that exceeds the weight allowance incurs a fee of USD $100, and an item that exceeds the size allowance incurs a fee of USD $200. These fees are cumulative, and they apply each way on a round-trip journey; meaning that a bag exceeding both the size and weight limit will incur a total fee of USD $300 each way, or USD $600 for the round-trip. For two people traveling with a boat and all the equipment needed for a three-week excursion, staying within limits is a significant issue. As much as $2,400 is at stake, and even more if things cannot be confined to four bags and two carry-ons. Baggage fees can quickly become the most expensive part of the journey.
We did several practice packings before we found the best possible solution, and even then it put us at risk of additional fees. We stripped all three bags of their straps and back-pack style carrying systems. In the bag for the boat’s skin, we placed just the skin and its protective canvas. It weighed in at forty-nine pounds, just one pound under the limit; and we compressed it with luggage straps to meet the size restriction. We ditched the spray skirt; and we packed the seats and seat cushions into a parachute bag, along with camping equipment and personal flotation devices.
For the bag with the long frame pieces, we ditched the canvas inner-bag used for the keel. We kept the canvas bag designed for the other long pieces, and when it was loaded we rolled the keel inside of it. This allowed us pack our paddles into the long bag, which brought the bag’s overall weight to forty-nine pounds — again, just one pound to spare. But, no matter what we did, the long bag exceeded size limits; and it was therefore subject to a fee of USD $200, each way.
Everything else — the bag with the ribs and rudder, the boat’s seats and seat cushions, personal flotation devices, the bilge pump, dry bags, clothing, tent, camping equipment, eight days of dehydrated meals, snorkeling gear, camera equipment, and more — was packed into two canvas parachute bags and two very-heavy carry-ons. We made it work, but it was a real Rubics Cube. And no matter what we did, we could not escape the excess size and fees of the long bag.
During the outbound flight, all the keel and gunwale pieces developed scratches. These scratches were at points where the metal horseshoes and tungs met wood when the pieces were folded for packing. In the case of the bow keel piece, the scratches were sufficient to allow water to penetrate into the top layer of plywood during the trip, causing a 1″ x 1/2″ area of de-lamination. After the trip, we repaired the scratches with varnish, and we fixed the area of de-lamination with an epoxy fill. We also applied a layer of epoxy to high-wear areas in order to create a more scratch-resistant surface. On future trips, we will tape some lightweight packing material around the horseshoes and tungs.
On the return flight, one of two coaming studs was bent. The coaming studs are metal fittings attached to the sixth rib, and they join components of the coaming at the rear of the cockpit. I sent the rib to Long Haul, and the manufacturer replaced the fitting at no charge.
Related to transporting the boat as airline baggage was our interest in insuring it against damage or loss. Sure, the boat could be damaged during actual use, but we were more worried about leaving an airport luggage carousel with a bag of splinters.
Our insurance research revealed more non-solutions than solutions. We checked into a travel insurance policy, but it only covered USD $250 per item, which does not help much with a USD $5,000 kayak. We next talked with two companies that offer boat policies. Neither company’s agent had ever received a request to insure a folding kayak — it is not your typical, covered watercraft. One company agreed to insure the boat for a monthly premium of USD $24 a month; but they would only cover use within seventy-five nautical miles of the United States’ coastline, which does not help with overseas travel. The second company had nothing to offer. We also checked with the carrier of our high-value property policy, but we were told that boats cannot be covered by it.
Our existing homeowner’s policy is the best option we found, but it is still only a partial solution. In our case, watercraft payouts are limited to USD $1,500, and there is a minimum deductible of USD $500. So, if the kayak suffers damage of USD $2,000 or more, we will be paid USD $1,500. It is a cup one-third full, but at least the coverage is worldwide.
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The boat performed well, even in sometimes-difficult conditions. In calm conditions — which we rarely encountered — the fully-loaded kayak was easy to paddle at speeds of four knots. On the outbound leg of the trip, we had the wind and seas behind us, and we made equally-good speed; but the conditions demanded that we paddle hard to maintain steerage and avoid broaching. At those times when we attempted to paddle against winds in the mid-teens, we pulled with everything we had to make any headway at all, and sometimes we were forced to abandon the effort altogether. On the last three days of the trip, we took advantage of greatly-improved weather to complete an upwind, return leg of fifty straight-line miles. Hugging lee shores to minimize our wind exposure, we managed average daily speeds in excess of three knots.
The boat had good lateral stability, and we never felt at real risk of capsizing, even with the swell and waves on our beam. With following seas of two to three feet, it was fairly easy to keep the boat from yawing; but in seas of four feet and higher, we think there would have been an unacceptable risk of broaching (although that risk probably attends any seventeen-foot kayak). On our last day, we encountered six-foot and larger, steep-faced waves that swept through shallow areas. We steered clear of these areas, because such a wave would have been catastrophic.
We think that Sea State 3 is the upper limit for reasonably safe use of the kayak, with Sea State 2 and lower being optimal. Sea State 2 dominated our trip, and the boat performed with confidence. We rarely experienced Sea State 1 or O, and then only in small, heavily-sheltered areas. But Sea State 3 was a frequent occurrence, particularly in and around channels between islands; the boat performed well under these conditions, but it sometimes required heavy work to maintain steerage, and it sometimes felt like we were reaching the limit of controlled paddling. Consequently, we think that Sea State 3 is the boat’s upper limit, and that Sea State 4 would carry an unacceptable risk of broaching and capsize. And Sea State 3 is a pretty high threshold for a small boat — during my Marine Corps service in units that used inflatable Zodiacs with outboard engines, Sea State 3 was considered the limit for safe, peacetime operations.
Throughout the trip, we wished we had a sail for our boat. Since returning, we have purchased one: the Kayaksailor by Kuvia, which we selected for its relatively low cost, minimal intrusion into the cockpit, and transportability. We purchased it through Klepper America, which manufactures a custom mounting platform that also works on Long Haul kayaks. The platform attaches to the cockpit coaming and existing mast bracket without any modification to the boat. We have yet to put the sail to use, so we are not able to comment on its performance at this time.
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We encountered a few minor maintenance issues during the trip. The first dealt with the sponsons. Within sleeves attached to the interior of the boat’s skin, there are four inflatable tubes that run its length, two tubes on each side. These tubes are the sponsons, and it is their inflation that tightens the hull and deck to the frame of the boat. Without at least one functional sponson on each side of the boat, the boat will not work well, if at all.
Both lower sponsons developed leaks in their end-welds. One leak developed on the second day of the trip, the other on the third. We think they were the result of over-pressure from heat expansion as the boat sat on beaches, when the hull was fully exposed to the sun. We had not anticipated this now-obvious problem. After repairing the sponsons with the boat’s field repair kit, we made it a standard practice to release some air whenever we were not paddling, and to fully open the sponsons when the boat was beached for the night. We never had another issue. Nothing was mentioned in the boat’s literature about the potential for over-pressure due to heat, or the need to release air to prevent a leak. We have recommended to the manufacturer that, at the risk of telling owners the obvious, it may be something worth mentioning in the boat’s manual.
Long Haul Kayaks has since improved the end welds of its sponsons; and they sent us a full set of the improved sponsons, at no charge.
While patching the sponson leaks, we experienced a small, but potentially significant problem with the field maintenance kit. The liquid glue used to effect the repair is contained in a small bottle, and its plastic cap shattered into five or six pieces when we screwed it back on. We were left with a cap-less bottle of glue that we obviously needed, and we had visions of becoming stranded on a deserted cay for lack of a two-cent plastic cap. We ended up sealing the bottle with duct tape from the repair kit.
There was another small problem with this little bottle of glue: there was no brush integral to the shattered cap, so we used a small stick from a nearby tree to apply the cement. A brush would have been a big help.
There are plastic clips that attach the rear of the seat cushions to the seats, and these clips are attached to the cushions by webbing that is sewn into the seam of the seat cushion covers. With one of the seat cushions, the webbing pulled out of the seam. This happened with both clips after four days of use. Jen repaired the seat using needle and thread from the field repair kit, and we experienced no further problems. After the trip, Long Haul Kayak restitched both seat cushion covers, at no cost to us.
Our dive into the field maintenance kit caused us to take a harder look at its contents, during which we noticed two shortfalls. The kit contains numerous solid, round-head rivets; but there is no means to install them. Without something like a handheld squeezer, the rivets are pretty much useless. We mentioned the rivet issue to Long Haul’s owner, and he told us that frame damage almost always involves wooden components, not rivet failure; and that he saw no real need to carry a field riveting capability. Nonetheless, if a capability is wanted, we imagine a hand-held squeezer could be added to a larger repair kit. An alternative might be to carry a few stainless steel bolts, nuts, and washers to serve as temporary rivet stand-ins. Regardless of the choice — carry a squeezer, buy some bolts, or forget about it altogether — the rivets in the kit, as sold, appear to serve no real purpose.
Another shortfall is the lack of a proper patch kit for the hypalon hull. The existing repair kit contains a small roll of duct tape, and the instructions say that one of the tape’s uses is hull repair. While we appreciate duct tape’s wide-ranging utility, we are not comfortable with betting everything on a piece of tape immersed in saltwater — not when there are better solutions available. We are adding a proper hypalon patch kit to our packing list.
There are many stainless steel fittings that join the boat’s wooden frame: hinges, pins, rib locks, t-fittings, and rivets. Noticeable surface corrosion developed on them early in the trip. We managed to remove most of the corrosion with a light scrubbing once we got home, but we were still a bit concerned. We have since discussed this with Long Haul Kayaks, who assured us that this is a cosmetic issue, and not a matter of maintenance or structural concern. Long Haul conveyed that the grade of stainless steel used in the boat’s construction was recommended by the fittings’ manufacturer as the best material for use in the kayaks, and that this grade is more prone to minor surface corrosion than are some others.
The rudder control pedals are joined to the frame by large, stainless steel hinges. The hinge for the right rudder pedal bent during the trip. The most likely cause was me bracing on the pedal while paddling. The hinge still worked, but we did not want to head out on another trip without a repair or replacement. Long Haul Kayaks replaced the hinge, at no cost to us. They also bent the original hinge back into shape and returned it to us as a spare part.
We noticed a potential problem with a small metal fitting on the wooden bar that forms the boat’s forward deck. The fitting holds a wire landyard, that in turn holds a cotter pin, with the cotter pin being used during assembly to join the deck bar to a frame rib. The fitting is attached to the deck bar by a single rivet, and somewhere during our trip it managed to pivot upward, pushing a sharp corner into contact with the deck material. This could have caused a tear in the deck, which would have been a serious problem. As it happened, we discovered the issue before any damage occurred, pulled the fitting back into parallel with the bar, and inspected regularly thereafter. After our trip, we brought the issue to Long Haul’s attention. At no charge to us, they changed the location of these fittings for both the bow and stern, repositioning them to the ribs that join the deck bars. This new configuration shows no risk of the problem we encountered, and our conversation with Long Haul indicates it may become the standard for their boats.
The boat’s rib locks were a minor irritation for Jen. These metal fittings join the third, fourth, and fifth ribs to the cockpit coaming. On the third rib, they are positioned in just about the right spot to make contact with the forward paddler’s knees, which happened to Jen repeatedly. After the trip, we mentioned this to Long Haul. They sent us two prototypes for protective covers, at no cost to us. One shows particular promise.
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Despite the minor maintenance issues discussed above, and the challenges of transporting the boat on commercial aircraft, we left the Exumas very pleased with our Long Haul kayak. It was put to a real test, made all the more challenging by unexpectedly adverse weather conditions. The kayak got us through it all, and we became increasingly confident in its capabilities as the days passed. We never worried that the boat would fail us.
We have been equally impressed with the support provided by our boat’s manufacturer. The owner of Long Haul Kayaks has engaged us in detailed discussions on our observations and recommendations, and he has gone out of his way to correct the issues we identified.
We look forward to our next excursion — this time armed with a sail.
Hey everyone, I am looking for a kayak that I would be able to take out on 14 day solo trips. I've always taken my canoe out for trips so I'm not really sure if a 14 day kayak trip is too long or not and just needed some advice on what kayak would be best and whether it is possible.
At the moment I'm thinking maybe the Trak Seeker but if there are better options (or cheaper similar options
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
There are a number of options, most of which cost less than the Trak, and a few of which, like the Feathercraft K1, cost more. At the lower end you have several models from Pakboats and Folbot, which are certainly expedition worthy, and then moving up in price, Long Haul, and Klepper.
Check the main part of the web site (Foldingkayaks.com/WP) for more specific info. It's a little out of date but there are links to all the major makers as well as many reviews. Also check the maker-specific sections here in the forum for good user-supplied information.
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knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am Posts: 394 Location: Coastal New Jersey
I might be a bit wary of the Trak Seeker. This because of the hydraulic apparatus used to modify the boat's hull shape. There is a demo model on display at the Jersey Paddler and the aforementioned devices are broken, probably because of the usual customer curiosity, playing with them to see how they work. The boat itself is quite good looking and simple except for the mechanical complications.
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:46 pm Posts: 78 tsunamichuck wrote: Depends on where you are going and the type of waters you will paddle
x2 to this. Depends on where you want to go and what you want to do. And how light/heavy you have to pack.
If water and food and fire is not an issue, even a small boat will work. Personally I would pick the smaller feathercraft kayaks if all I want is a lightweight package for travelling and am not too concerned about speed. Would cost half a kidney even second hand though.
Folbots are decent value for their relatively low price. I don't really like the way folbot sets up but it is a simpler process than many other folding kayak. The Kiawah is a decent size, reasonably light and really affordable brand new. Material is comparable to the standard nautiraid nulls.
The TRAK is the toughest folding kayak that I have used and offers a lively paddle. The weight and performance are comparable to composite kayaks of a similar length but is rather big when packed compared to smaller folding kayaks. The jacks does lose a bit of tension after a while but still works to tension the kayak. The adjustable sideway trim is also useful and is a good compromise between a skeg and a rudder.
Alternatives such as gumotex/innova sit on top inflatables work too, but you need to carry a pump so that's extra weight and bulk. Performs ok if conditions are mild and it can offer comfort and flexibility that sit in kayaks cannot.
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
If I were taking a trip such as you are describing my choice would be a Pakboat Quest 155 or XT-17 (or, if you can find one, an XT-15 -- discontinued last year but still for sale in some places.). Besides being nicely made kayaks for a reasonable price, their design with the entire deck being able to peel back from bow or stern for access inside the hull, makes packing and unpacking during such a trip much simpler than with other models with solid decks. I say this having owned 3 Feathercrafts and two Pakboats. These are very comfortable boats for extended paddling too.
faltbootemeister Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:31 pm Posts: 144
I come from the same place as you. I have done three week solo trips in a canoes and we all know you can stack a canoe with gear as high as you feel comfortable and the water conditions allow. This of course is the amusing if not sometimes tragic mistakes new paddlers make.
For a kayak you are always limited since they have that deck covering. I tend to be an expedition paddler, meaning long trips. I like the Folbots for this. Their huge cockpits and wide beams (except Cooper of course) allow a lot of gear and you still get stability and the ability to shed water on the bow with wind and waves. Within reason of course.
There is the advantage of a double when paddled single. You can put a lot of gear in a double when you are alone but you will travel slowly. Folbot's old Super and old Big Glider are cheap and carry a tremendous load. They can be bought for under $500, even below $300 in good condition.
I think my first decision would be "do I want a small double loaded down or a large single loaded down." How much gear and what tradeoff in speed/stability?
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm Posts: 1398 Location: South Salem, NY
The Klepper Aerius II is a double and probably the most common folder on the used market. Also one of the toughest and heaviest. They can be paddled solo and you will get a lot of different opinions on that if you ask here. They will carry a serious amount of gear and can be comfortably sailed with a few different sail options. I've never packed a canoe for tripping but I'm sure the AEII will hold about as much as you need. Prices can range anywhere from $800 to $2500 used depending on condition, model and options (many come with a sail rig).
I paid $2000 for mine a few years ago. It's a 1991ish vintage, expedition model and came with a full sail rig in very good condition. It has served me well and I'm not easy on it.
Long Haul Folding Kayaks makes an American version of this boat called the Mark II. This boat can carry a payload between 800-900 lbs and it won't let you down.
d
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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:36 pm Posts: 248 Location: west burbs of Chicago
All good recommendations for good boats.
But
We still can't be more specific without knowing what kind of water you'll be traveling and what style your trip will be.
If you'll camp every night in a new place, ease of loading unloading will be key. Kayaks are a pain to pack compared to a canoe. Pakboats are easiest with removable decks, Folbots are next with big, long zippers in the decks. Others here can tell you about other brands.
The advantage of a decked boat is that you can take on some big waves (depending on your skill of course) without shipping water. Same if you get caught in driving rain.
Give us some idea what you're doing and we'll get down to specifics for you.
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Five Folbots - Super TSF, two GIIs, Kodiak, Gremlin
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Pakboat has some really good deals for sale on their company website, selling some used and demo boats, plus the discounts on the remaining stock of the XT-15 which I had recommended to you. Packing for and loading a Pakboat will be exactly like you've always done with your canoes
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lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
I think we are talking to ourselves on this. The question was posed by a new participant who has not been in this conversation for almost two weeks. All the advice is solid, I am just afraid it is falling on deaf ears. Or maybe not, I am not judging.
g
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forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Hi Everybody,
I am a very new member as well, and although I am not the poster of this original question, I am finding this thread very helpful.
If the original poster isn't going to offer up a location, perhaps I can! I am planning on an extended trip in the Southeast Alaskan islands region, perhaps as far south as the BC islands. So...cold waters, strong currents in channels, lots of rain, and the potential for big waves. What would you all recommend? I am from the east coast so I have been researching folding kayaks as a way for me to make the trip feasible without having to worry about trying to purchase on arrival and then attempt to sell before departure...trying to bring my Valley Avocet would be insanely expensive on any major airline or via shipping.
As far as budget goes, I can rationalize spending ~$2000, perhaps up to $2500 when considering all the extras (spray skirt/deck, 3 or 4 piece paddle, etc.), with the understanding from other reviews that these boats can last decades and I would be able to take it on many other trips of this caliber in the future. I would like to buy new if possible.
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
First question: How are your kayaking skills? Do you have a good roll?
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forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
I have rolled my hardshell avocet just a few times, but have never paddled a folding kayak. I hear/read they are much more difficult to roll. So I do not have any experience rolling a folding kayak.
I can execute a paddle float re-entry and understand the risks involved in such an area of paddling. I plan on using the next couple winters to practice rolling and re-entries during the winter here in Maryland. This is one reason I am researching so far in advanced (trip wouldn't be until 2016) as I would like to have my chosen folding kayak in hand well before the trip to get as much time as possible familiar with the boat.
You no doubt will have fun planning for your Alaska trip, and fun selecting the right equipment and kayak. Couple of questions: Will you be alone? Will you have resupply for water or rely on purified? Are you a spartan camper or, like some (me) a comfort camper?
Other than that, you can get a lot of used boat for $2,500 and I would not rule that out. There are a lot of kayaks that were bought with best intentions of use that end up spending their lives in the closet. That money could put you in a really nice K1, an expedition Klepper, Nauteraid, or Longhaul.
Best,g
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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
I ask because there are narrow, high-performance folding kayaks, and wider, more stable kayaks. You sound like you can easily handle a high performance boat.
For a boat you could roll ideally you'd be looking at a Feathercraft Khatsalano or K1 Expedition, but that's $5,800. The only high performance boats in your price range, new, would be something like a Folbot Cooper, at $1800, or perhaps one of the Pakboat Quest line, but they don't have a ton of cargo room. My personal choice for an extended trip would be my Long Haul Mark 1, which is long, roomy, and can haul a lot inside, but that's around $3,200 new. Let's see what other Forum members suggest.
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forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
In response to gbellware:
Yes, very very excited about the trip, now I just have to try to contain that excitement and channel it into effective preparation. I will most likely be paddling with one more individual, and perhaps a second...but likely not. I plan on purifying water at the source and then having a reliable amount with me (4 liters or so), but certainly not all the water I need between resupplies. I would consider myself on the spartan end of comfort camping if that helps at all. I am definitely not a weight weenie, but I also like being to minimize my gear just so I have less to think about. That being said, the gear I will have with me won't be the top of the line lightweight backpacking stuff. For example, when I backpack, I carry a two-person backpacking tent because I like the extra space to keep gear dry and to spread out. But, I won't be carrying stuff like a camping chair or elaborate stove system.
In response to both gbellware and mje in regards to the boats:
For this trip I am not nearly as worried about being able to churn out high speed miles in a perfomance kayak. My biggest concern for this outing would be gear storage capacity and durability.
I have come across the Folbot Yukon, and it looks like a potential option. Any experience with this kayak? Something I would certainly love about buying new is the lifetime warranty and highly ranked customer support. That would certainly give me peace of mind knowing the parts are covered.
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
Oh boy, now you opened a can of worms. Every folder has a different personality and value in the hands of each paddler. And the differences are often a matter of one's utility for "quality". If you want to see what a high quality expedition kayak does in the hands of some serious paddlers just search this board for Doinomazi for some amazing video. You can also look at my not so amazing pics of another expedition kayak here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3623&hilit;=+florida+keys (this is the first of two posts, you will have to search for the second one if you are interested)
At the end of the day, Longhaul, Feathercraft, and Folbot have stellar customer service after the sale, you really can't go wrong. Except if you fall in love with a 5,000 kayak and only want to spend half that
Best,
g
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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Wow, that Doinomazi has got an incredible rig, and great videos. I loved your shots as well.
Being that I am new to the folding kayak scene I figure I should be wise about how I invest. I figure that if I am planning on doing the expedition in 2016 then I have plenty of time to purchase a boat and take it through the ringer so I will know if it is suitable for such a trip. I simply want a boat that I can paddle, take on an airplane, fit lots of gear inside and not have to worry about breaking apart on every landing. It sounds like the Folbot Yukon offers that...and its half the price of the others.
I have just finished my first full year at my first full-time job after college. I don't have much of a budget and need to remind myself that if I start off with a $2500 boat then down the road when I am (hopefully) more financially comfortable I can afford an upgrade. I did the same thing with my mountain bike. Bought a used bike for just under $800 that I can ride hard and have a lot of fun. Of course, I would love the $3500 new bike...but that will have to wait, and besides, when I am out on the trail the pure joy of riding doesn't know how much my bike cost me.
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
That all makes sense, well thought through. BTW, we raised our kids in Baltimore and spent many happy days in the Chesapeake basin. Great paddling, it is an ecosystem like no other that I have seen. Enjoy.
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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
I was just out paddling below the Bay Bridge last night! Great place, beautiful at sunset.
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm Posts: 301 Location: Oakland, California
Connor,
I was in Southeast Alaska about a month ago for work in Ketchikan. Gorgeous area! I managed to "sneak off" and do some kayaking in the Clover Passage area with a rented plastic sea kayak. Made my trip!
I think your big decision is if you want a folder which feels more or less like your Avocet (slender and more set up for rolling), or if you want to go with the more traditional folder type with sponsons (greater stability, but not really set up for rolling).
I second mje's recommendations. Maybe also consider Nautiraid Narak and Trak T-1600 in the slender sea kayak category, and Nautirad 460 for a different take on the more traditional type. None of these are within your price range, but they are comparable to fiberglass kayak prices. The other thing to consider is availability. Feathercraft, Longhaul, Trak, Folbot and Pakboat are North American companies while others have to be imported (Klepper, Nautiraid, Pouch and Nortik for example. Some are readily available here, others less so).
My own shortlist would be Nautiraid Narak, Longhaul Mk1, Nortik Navigator and Pouch LE14. These all have wood frames (personal preference!) and salt water resistant hardware.
Ideally you would be able to test paddle some folders before purchase. Don't dismiss a well cared for used kayak: The out of your price range new kayak is suddenly within your price range!
Chris
_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Nautiraid Miniraid
Klepper T67
Pionier 450 S
Kette SE 54
Mariner Coaster
HSF Horst Hartung Slalom 50
P&H Hammer
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Thanks! Two new companies for me to check out! I have never heard of Pouch or Nortik until now. Seemingly, it would be crazy expensive to buy either of those new correct? I would assume just the shipping costs from Europe alone would be sky high. Pouch also has no price listing as they tend to do everything "custom" which leads me to believe nothing they have sell will come close to my price range.
I do love the look of the Long Hauls and have to say that the Ute does fall within my budget. However, I am assuming the Ute would not be able to carry enough gear to get me through 2 weeks between resupply stops. Is this a correct assumption?
For this trip in particular, and future expedition trips as well, I actually prefer to have a wider-berth kayak that focuses on stability and gear capacity over straight line speed. While I love taking my Avocet out for a couple hours to cover some serious ground as a workout, and perhaps an overnighter here and there, for the kind of trip I am planning it will be less about belting off those miles, and more about getting everywhere safely and comfortably so I can enjoy the experience as a whole.
So, it sounds like a lot of you all would be willing to pay the same price for a used Feathercraft/Long Haul/Trak as a new Folbot and that doesn't bother you. Interesting. My big worry is the warranty and customer service. If I was to scour the interwebs and come across a seemingly well taken care of boat which was far enough away that I was unable to test it out...what happens if it shows up with a big rip in the hull or something? Would those companies honor their product and still provide assistance without breaking my bank?
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm Posts: 301 Location: Oakland, California
Connor,
The key to affordable shipping from Europe is to keep the max length of the item to 120cm. Both the Pouch LE14 and the Nortik Navigator meet this per the data I have. I had an entire kayak - an old Kette SE54- shipped to me from Germany for 89 Euro.
Re price: In general folders are comparable, if not actually less expensive, than quality fiberglass sea kayaks. Yes, Folbots are comparable to rotomolded ones!.
I think that for your stated purpose a Longhaul with the added keel strips under the keel and the two stringers is the most "bomb proof" choice. Why? The Hypalon hull material is both particularly tough, abrasion resistant and easy to repair in the field. Frame clips are stainless steel instead of aluminum. For the deck you have the option of either cotton canvas, if you like a breathable deck on a sunny day when using a spray skirt, or Sea Mark (coated Sunbrella) if you prefer synthetic water and rot proof material. Lastly the frame pieces, since they are wood can be easily repaired or replaced (with scrap or even driftwood pieces) in the field.
Yes indeed, Folbot has a stellar warranty! However, I also consider easy repairability in the field. How would I get the warranty service while on an extended tour? Check what Folbot currently uses for their hull material and the required field patching procedures.
For a used kayak, overall condition is everything. You really should look at them in person, unless a really good and comprehensive set of photo's were taken (and you know what to look for!). A good set of photo's should show the kayak fully and correctly assembled plus all the parts when disassembled. Parts availability for Kleppers (AE1 and AE2), Longhauls, Feathercrafts and Folbots (except early plastic ribs, these will be replaced with aluminum ones!)) is generally not a problem.
Lastly, re. a shorter kayak, such as the Ute, they are great for day paddles where small pack size, easy maneuverability and quick acceleration are plusses. Packing space is clearly less and also consider a relaxed cruising speed on a long tour.
Chris
_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Nautiraid Miniraid
Klepper T67
Pionier 450 S
Kette SE 54
Mariner Coaster
HSF Horst Hartung Slalom 50
P&H Hammer
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Hi Chris,
Great post. The Long Haul has now pushed its way to the top of my list. I was being hopeful about the carrying capacity of the Ute....that price tag is just so much easier to look at. But, the Mark I seems like a terrific boat, and I can't tell you how many people have spoken highly of their products and service. What do you mean by the stringers? Just deck lines? Below is what it lists online for the standard Mark I package:
Kayak, Rudder Assembly, Velcro Tuckunder Spraycover, Sling Seat, 1-8" Keelstrip and 10 D-rings (6-fore and 4-aft), 2 air sponsons, footbrace, bow and stern grab handles, Standard Packing Bags and Longren Packing Sleeve
So, what were you saying I should purchase in addition? This seems to have the keel strips, would the stringers just be to run through the D-rings?
Also, I have noticed it says it packs down into 3 bags. Is it feasible to take 3 bags onto an airline along with my other gear? I would assume that would cost a fortune in extra baggage fees.
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
You have great advice from Chris. I would avoid overseas purchase of pouch, nauteraid, Tyne, or any of the otherwise fine folders just because of the shipping and service issues. Most of the overseas purchases by those of us from this side of the pond are for rare/antique/interesting models that just can't be found in the US. And avoid Wayland unless you want to waste your time and money, just search this board for their customer experience history.
You have listed the complete boat and add-ons you should consider for long haul kayak. The only thing I don't know about long haul is their hatch configuration. You would do well to consider hatches, they are not necessary but they sure make loading and unloading more convenient.
The stringers are part of the kayak frame, usually made of round-stock ash or birch, that run longitudinally in 3 or 4 sections from bow to stern, between the gunwales and keel boards. They help shape the hull. Hope that makes sense.
I have done a bit of kayaking on the Kenai, but there is another member who might help you with your plans. Tsunamichuck has travelled the world by kayak and now lives in the shadows of the Chugach Range in Alaska, you might want to pm him.
g
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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am Posts: 222
Price doesn't always translate in quality, but your safety on a particular type of expedition, similar to what you described, should not ne compromised by price... I'd rather wait for the right time, save and get the type of equipment I trust, than buying cheaper. On certain expeditions your life might depend on the quality and integrity of your gear.
I like Nautiraid, I admire the elegance of a Feathercraft, I ordered Folbot (and cancelled the order because they were not using Hypalon at the time) and I settled for Long Haul. No regrets since.
I don't know how the Long Haul boats will evolve in the future, I hope that Mark doesn't fall into the war of weights trap compromising the quality of the matetials to save a few pounds, but right now the Long Haul is the boat that will take you places... and back!
It is a heavy, sturdy, trustworthy, piece of equipment. We loaded the boat to capacity, 70+ litres of fluids, camping gear, food for two people for 14 days, lots of other type of gear and the boat sailed through surf and rough patches without any problem.
Taking a folding kayak and camping gear by plane is not as simple as it sounds in ads. We gave up the three bag solution. Where is the rest of gear going to fit? Many foreign airlines have various restriction on weight allotment. If you decide to reach a remote place where only small planes, choppers , boats, 4x4 or donkeys can reach, logistics may become a much bigger challenge than paddling rough waters...
We just returned from a trip to a remote area and teo weeks later the boat and gear are still in transit between helicopters, small boats and two different cargo airlines. Rough handling, i saw one guy dumping our stuff from a truck still in motion, waiting days in a row outside in harsh conditions and so on. No bag or cardboard box would have survived that abuse.
I can't wait to see the boat again and I can only hope that everything will be OK.
Bottom line, expeditions are a bit different than the Sunday paddling at the local pond. Not better, not worse, just a bit different.
Plan well, save and get the best equipment you can afford. Then plunge forward and have fun...
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
Thank you for your clarification in regards to the stringers. I believe I can picture where and how they would fit from your description.
It is nice to know that Long Haul is North American. I also appreciate your advice as far as shipping from Europe goes. I figured anyways that if I am going to spend an equivalent amount of money for a Nautiraid, Pouch, or Long Haul...then I minus well purchase the one which will be able to respond faster to any questions or issues that arise.
As far as the Long Haul Mark I kit goes...does the spraycover also include a sprayskirt that actually attaches to the paddler, or would I need to purchase a separate sprayskirt to attach to the cover?
Also, tsunamichuck actually reached out to me after one of my very first posts and has been giving me advice as well. Very nice guy.
In response to DoiNomazi:
First of all, I hope your boat arrives in good shape! A shame to see people treating it so carelessly.
I am a little worried in regards to your issues with airline travel. Is it possible to pay a little extra ($50 per bag or so) to check two extra bags so the entire boat can just be checked on an airline. I am not currently planning on any overseas trips, but I wouldn't be surprised if I start entertaining the idea in the near future. I would like to feel more comfortable with being able to travel with a boat such as the Long Haul after making such a significant purchase.
On the other hand, I love to hear the great reviews of the Long Haul's durability and gear capacity. Good stuff.
Great videos by the way. Another individual pointed me in your direction and I spent all night the other night watching your adventures.
It is difficult to find an answer that fits all transportation related situations. It depends on your destination. How remote is your destination, what type of climate, do you paddle, or paddle/sail, what type and how much camping gear you need, OR YOU THINK YOU NEED...
On the last trip we went to a cold climate, which meant winter gear, from additional heavy rubber boots, to winter sleeping bags and clothing. Without taking the sailing kit, because of the constantly shifting winds, our total combined curb side gear weight, including transport cases, was 233 Kg (513 lbs). The last segment of the flight had a non-negotiable weight limit of 20 Kg per passenger for checked-in luggage and 6 Kg for cabin luggage. That was 52 Kg. allowed for both of ys. It was not even a matter of paying excess fees. The plane was a smaller prop and they said they will not take any extra luggage beyond the 20 Kg per passenger. Options?
Whenever we take the kayak and gear overseas we prefer to use cargo transportation. Marine cargo is cheaper but it takes longer and air cargo is the most convenient. Air cargo has certain requirments. You can use the original bags but they must be really well wrapped and protected. On one trip we used two custom made heavy duty cardboard boxes for all the gear, kayak, camping, clothing, etc. The air cargo handlers tend to be careful and the boxes were in good shape but on the way back they gave their last and became unusable... if you add more segments and different forms of transportaton in addition to the flights, the situation changes quite a bit. The transfers to and from the airport can be demanding on the gear. Much more demanding than the cargo flight if you are not present to help and protect.
On the way in, we had to use two different cargo planes, a helicopter and a pick-up truck. Then we had to load all the gear on a boat for a 56 mile ride until the point where the paddling began. The empty cases had to travel back the 56 miles by boat and remain outside in the elemts (no protected storage) for 12 days until we returned. Then another boat ride to another island where the airstrip was located, followed by another pick-up ride and the two different cargo planes on the way back. No chopper on the way back. Each of those different forms of transportation means loading and unloading by people who may, or may not, care much about your kayak... It is easier for them to grab whatever strap seems handy, push, roll, drag, drop, than lift and carry with care... One guy decided to drop the boxes from the pick-up truck while still in motion! When loading on one of the boats they asked me if we can just roll the cases down a steep wooden ramp with nails popping up... I try not to imagine what happened when I was not present...
So, what type of luggage can take the abuse and protect the content? Do you want to reuse the luggage on future trips? Made of what? Heavy cordura (heavier than the original bags)? Hypalon? plastic? Aluminum? Wood? Cordura and hypalon on the exterior with marine plywood on the interior (sort of a trunk with handles all around)? How much weight would the heavier material add to the overall weight and cost? How many pieces of luggage? More pieces means more chances that something gets lost..
That being said, don't let logistics ruin the fun. Folding kayaks are meant to go places.
For the kayak alone, you can definitely travel on most flights with the original bags and expect to pick up the kayak in good condition at the other end.
That's my humble $ 0.02
Enjoy your future trips!
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Posts: 282 Freeburn wrote: I have come across the Folbot Yukon, and it looks like a potential option. Any experience with this kayak? Something I would certainly love about buying new is the lifetime warranty and highly ranked customer support. That would certainly give me peace of mind knowing the parts are covered.
Thanks again for your help.
The Folbot model I'd be inclined to use for that type of trip would be the Kodiak. It's a serviceable Klepper/Long-Haul knock-off, and in terms of length/beam seems to strike a nice balance between the longer, sleeker Cooper and the short, beamy Yukon. At 13' long with a 30" beam
the Yukon would move like a houseboat. At 15' long with a 28" beam, the Kodiak is still too beamy for my taste, but it will definitely be faster and have better tracking than the Yukon.
But ultimately it depends how much you really need to carry. Freshwater can be filtered as needed, so there's no need to carry gallons on board. But if you'll be on saltwater for extended periods without access to freshwater you might need to carry several days worth of water.
Just FYI, I've pretty decided to buy a Pakboats Quest 155 this winter. I'm a former Folbot Cooper owner, and I've looked closely at both the Kodiak and Quest 155, and absolutely love Pakboats' design: They're light, yet still managed to be quite rigid, fairly easy to assemble, have decent storage capacity (without going overboard) and the peel-off deck is wonderful; not only does it make loading/unloading gear super-easy, but it also enables 'topless' paddling on calm, clear days. Also, with the deck removed the inside of the kayak dries much more quickly, and is really easy to clean. I'm 5'9" 160pds and the Quest 155 seems just about perfect as a general-purpose yak for me: spacious enough for mid-length touring, and also well suited for casual day-trips.
The Kodiak is a good boat, but unless you're primarily doing long, unsupported trips, it's overkill as a general purpose yak... especially since it weighs 52pds!
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
I'd agree that Long Haul is the best combination of ruggedness, seaworthiness, longevity, repairability, and availability of parts. The boats combine the best aspects of the Kleppers with improved hardware and US service. Folbot is high up there, and offers great support and value, though their boats aren't quite as rugged. Feathercraft gets high marks for performance, but you pay a high premium for them.
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Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
In response to DoiNomazi:
Wow, the journey of your cargo rivals belongs in an epic the likes of the The Odyssey! I have to say it isn't very heartening to hear what logistics are required for transporting a larger folding kayak such as the Long Haul. I would be carrying about 75 pounds of gear and wouldn't be sailing at all, so I would not be facing the drastic weight issues you ran into. But still, 75 pounds of gear along with a three bag boat will be difficult to bring on an airline judging from your experience.
Much and more to think about. Thank you.
In response to Apathizer and mje:
As DoiNomazi pointed out above, the big drawback for me with the Long Haul would be ease of transportation. Personally, perhaps the most important reason I am interested in purchasing a folding kayak is for the ability to take it on an airliner (I understand I may need to pay a little for an extra bag) anywhere around the world without having to hire a logistics manager. The PakBoats and Folbots start at almost $1000 less than the Long Hauls, and from what I have seen the Kodiak and the XT-17 would be able to fit into 1 bag for travel. Given those benefits, I am prone to believe that I would rather deal with the stress of fixing a tear in the hull in the field than to be so overwhelmed by the stress of transporting my boat that I never actually get out in the field in the first place.
Based on everybody's feedback, I know that a Long Haul would be a terrific boat, I have no doubt. But with the transportation issues, and price differences I would love a little more feedback about both the Kodiak and the XT-17. I agree with you Apathizer that upon a second (or was it twentieth) inspection of the Folbot website the Kodiak would be worth paying extra for the increased length to width ratio. The XT-17 is also an attractive option, and was one of the first boats I was considering however I am pretty sure the reason it dropped down my list was due to negative reviews in regards to the ability of the deck to keep water out in rough weather. I don't recall where I read this, but does this sound familiar to anybody? Also, with the XT-17 would you think it feasible to pack in a solid 75-100 lbs of gear apart from myself?
As far as the Folbot goes, I have read some bad feedback in regards to the ability to repair their new hull material (elvaloy). Has this issue been cleared up, or is this an on going mystery to find an adhesive that can actually stick to elvaloy?
Apathizer, as far as my search for a folding kayak, I am not concerned with owning a performance speed demon. I have hardshell kayaks that I can put in for the daily/weekend paddle, but nothing that I can take across the country and pack to the gills. I would prefer to purchase a boat with greater stability and gear capacity than straight line speed. Of course, as you pointed out with the Yukon, when an increase in speed without sacrificing stability with the Kodiak can be achieved I see the wisdom in making that switch.
So, ignoring the Long Haul for now, what would be your choice (and why) for a multiday/week expedition kayak in potentially rough waters...PakBoat XT-17 or Folbot Kodiak?
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am Posts: 222
In spite of what we encountered with logistics, and we like to use quite a bit of gear on our trips, loading the boat to capacity, if I had to buy another folder tomorrow I'd buy a Long Haul without hesitation because, being out there in the surf on a rough day, I know that it will stay together no matter what you throw at it, I also know that it will float rain or shine and take us back to safety.
The extra bucks I had to pay for it, was, above all, an investment in safety and durability. After all the hard trips, the boat looks and feels like the day I unpacked it for the first time.
I'd never pick anything just usin my eyes browsing online, or reading other people's opinions. While both opinions and pictures can be extremely helpful, touching and testing, looking at the quality, texture, strength of the materials is the real deal breaker.
I remember emerging from the tent one sunny morning and seeing a Feathercraft tandem right next to our LH. It looked like a Lamborghini parked next to a Toyota Landcruiser 78 Troop Carrier...
I approached filled with jealousy... I asked for permission to take a closer look and touch. I touched the aluminum keel and the gunwales... I flexed it a bit, I pushed the deck, I lifted the bow... In the end I was so happy with my boat...
I'd never trade.
And don't forget, the quality of a product is also reflected in customer service and nobody can compete with Long Haul when it comes to customer service.
Regardless of what folder you decide to buy, good luck and have fun!...
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
At the moment the Long Haul Mark I seems like a dream boat. Expensive, yet can't be beat in durability and customer service according to you and several other members. I can definitely see myself testing and purchasing one in the more distant future (perhaps a tandem for duo adventures like you!). You mentioned how you like to really pack in a ton of gear...if you were to be travelling more lightly (say just 75-100lbs of gear maximum) would you still choose the Long Haul every time?
I wish to ease my way into the folding kayak scene and the XT-17 and Kodiak seem better tailored to my immediate needs (budget and ease of travel).
I completely agree with you that all this reading and typing on forums (although very very helpful and appreciated!) is all for naught if I don't bother to actually see and feel and paddle the kayaks in question. I have been searching, and will continue to search, for demos for Folbot, PakBoat, and Long Haul.
Worst case scenario with Folbot, I could even order the Kodiak test it and return it within 30 days in "like new" condition for a full refund if I am unable to make it down to Charleston, SC or find a nearby demo. Of course, doing such a thing seems rude to me, so I would rather not have to go that route.
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Posts: 282 Freeburn wrote: In response to Apathizer and mje:
As DoiNomazi pointed out above, the big drawback for me with the Long Haul would be ease of transportation. Personally, perhaps the most important reason I am interested in purchasing a folding kayak is for the ability to take it on an airliner (I understand I may need to pay a little for an extra bag) anywhere around the world without having to hire a logistics manager. The PakBoats and Folbots start at almost $1000 less than the Long Hauls, and from what I have seen the Kodiak and the XT-17 would be able to fit into 1 bag for travel. Given those benefits, I am prone to believe that I would rather deal with the stress of fixing a tear in the hull in the field than to be so overwhelmed by the stress of transporting my boat that I never actually get out in the field in the first place.
I agree. I don't fly much, but don't have a car and need a bit that will fit comfortably on public transit (buses and trains). Both Quest models fit into a compact duffle, and while bigger the XT-17 is still manageable-sized. Transporting the Kodiak via airlines would be challenging, but doable: even though it's heavy, it fits into 2 separate bags, so there'd be additional fees, but I'd think it would work. I don't think it would work for mass transit.
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Posts: 282 Freeburn wrote: ...The XT-17 is also an attractive option, and was one of the first boats I was considering however I am pretty sure the reason it dropped down my list was due to negative reviews in regards to the ability of the deck to keep water out in rough weather. I don't recall where I read this, but does this sound familiar to anybody? Also, with the XT-17 would you think it feasible to pack in a solid 75-100 lbs of gear apart from myself? ...
As far as the Folbot goes, I have read some bad feedback in regards to the ability to repair their new hull material (elvaloy). Has this issue been cleared up, or is this an on going mystery to find an adhesive that can actually stick to elvaloy?
So, ignoring the Long Haul for now, what would be your choice (and why) for a multiday/week expedition kayak in potentially rough waters...PakBoat XT-17 or Folbot Kodiak?
In highly tumultuous conditions both Pakboats and Folbots will have some deck leakage. With the Kodiak, the cockpit isn't watertight, and a standard spray-skirt won't fit, so the main issue is cockpit leakage. And yes, as you've probably seen in the Folbot section of this fourm, Elvaloy is extremely difficult to repair, and field repairs seem implausible.
With Pakboats, there is some leakage through the velcro seam, but most indications are that it's pretty minimal if the deck attached/aligned carefully. Since this seam is perpendicular to the water, the leakage from typical waves/swell is minimal. However, if the deck is repeatedly submerged -say during leaned turns and extremely rough conditions- water supposedly enters at a much faster rate.
While both have +s and -s, I think I'd prefer the XT-17 over the Kodiak for the following reasons: field repairs are much easier (esp the hull - the most likely thing to get damaged), it's lighter, probably a bit stiffer, and offers a better balance of storage capacity and performance. I know you aren't looking for a 'performance' yak, but it's my understanding that even though the XT-17 is narrower it's still very stable.
Another nice feature about all Pakboats that most paddlers probably won't think about is the additional air-tubes. Most folders only have one sponson on each side that runs along the top of the hull, whereas Pakboats have 3 inflatable tubes on each side that run both the entire length and entire depth of the hull. Consequently, if flooded Pakboats will sit much higher in the water, making them much more manageable. Folbots and other models will remain afloat, but the deck will be just barely above water.
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Apathizer, wonderful advice. I have seen on other discussions that the XT-17 accepts non-Pakboat sprayskirts. That would be nice to be able to purchase a high quality sprayskirt to help with cockpit waterproofing. As for the water up under the deck, I would be putting everything in dry bags anyways, and the ability to repair the XT-17 hull in the field is a huge advantage in my mind over the Kodiak.
The more criticism I read about Elvaloy, the more hesitant I am about pursuing Kodiak. Such a shame because the Kodiak looks like it otherwise fit my requirements well. I don't mind the two bag system that much; the weight and dimensions of each shouldn't make it difficult to check one bag and pay extra for the second bag as an "oversized" or just second checked bag.
Now it's time to do some more digging on the XT-17! I did see an impressive video of a couple surfing their XT-15s on the Columbia River. My biggest concern is storage space...enough for 3-4 medium dry bags (clothing, camping gear, food)?
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Oh, and one more thing just to add to the chaos. How do you all feel about the PakBoat Puffin Saranac?
I just caught a glimpse of it on another discussion and was checking out some reviews. The price seems too good to be true (which usually means it is). I like the fact that it appears I could apply a similar solo deck as the XT-17, and they have added the bow and stern covers that help avoid water splashing in the ends. Also a much more roomy hold for gear. At 28 lbs, the weight is nice as well. Is it made out of a less durable material or something? Why the cost differential?
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:09 am Posts: 14 Location: Seattle Freeburn wrote: The ability to repair the XT-17 hull in the field is a huge advantage in my mind over the Kodiak.
The more criticism I read about Elvaloy, the more hesitant I am about pursuing Kodiak. Such a shame because the Kodiak looks like it otherwise fit my requirements well.
Freeburn,
You'll want to call Folbot for confirmation, but I believe the Kodiak (and the Aleut and Edisto) is still being made with a Hypalon hull instead of Elvaloy. I have a Kodiak as well as a Yukon, both in Hypalon, plus a giant Feathercraft Klondike, and I think the Kodiak is well-suited to southeast Alaska and to trips of up to two weeks' duration.
Here is a link to a recent trip report of me in my Kodiak in the San Juan Islands of Washington State (saltwater islands, topographically similar to SE AK). This was only a six-day trip, but the boat carried two large bear barrels and a big pelican case for my camera, plus a tripod, plus all the usual camping gear and clothing and fresh water jugs. With judicious packing, you could handily carry sufficient supplies in a Kodiak to do the trip you are talking about.
The Kodiak, like all open-cockpit designs, takes on water if waves break on the deck. The spraydeck and sprayskirt are insufficient to keep all the water out. Whitecap conditions will result in a certain amount of water entering the kayak, though not to a dangerous degree. I would avoid using an open-cockpit boat in anything more than three-to-four foot wind waves.
You are unlikely to encounter such conditions in the Inside Passage, so you should be fine. If such conditions do arise, they are likely to be brief, no more than a day or two, and you can wait them out. Other commenters may have greater risk tolerance than I do and may advise you differently. All the boats you are looking at—Kodiak, Yukon, Long Haul, and XT-17—are of the open-cockpit type, so there is no dodging this issue, but I don't think it will be a show-stopper.
I say the Kodiak is plenty of boat for you, if you can get it in Hypalon (again, call Folbot and confirm). Field repairs with the Hypalon hull are easy. I have done them on my Yukon, but haven't needed to with the Kodiak. For your money, Kodiak is probably the way to go.
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD Alex this could be an absolute game changer! I sent them an email right away asking about which material they use for the Kodiak. If it is indeed hypalon it could rocket back to the top of my list.
Your points about the open cockpit kayaks are great. I guess that the point at which water starts coming in the boat could be used as a metric for when it might be good to get off the water. I am all about pushing forward, but I agree that on a long expedition voyage there is more to be gained from erring on the side of safety and pulling into camp than paddling headlong into a dangerous situation.
Also nice to hear a first hand account of the gear capacity. Sounds like it should be plenty for my needs.
Your trip report was fantastic as well. Nice photos. I especially liked that one of the jumping orca...awesome.
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Posts: 282 Freeburn wrote: Now it's time to do some more digging on the XT-17! I did see an impressive video of a couple surfing their XT-15s on the Columbia River. My biggest concern is storage space...enough for 3-4 medium dry bags (clothing, camping gear, food)?
I'd guess there would be plenty of space. Remember, Pakboats don't have internal thwarts, so there's much more storage space than most other folders. The listed max payload is 400pds
, so it can certainly handle the weight.
alexsidles wrote: You'll want to call Folbot for confirmation, but I believe the Kodiak (and the Aleut and Edisto) is still being made with a Hypalon hull instead of Elvaloy.
All the boats you are looking at—Kodiak, Yukon, Long Haul, and XT-17—are of the open-cockpit type, so there is no dodging this issue, but I don't think it will be a show-stopper.
Sorry if I seem overly contrarian, but the XT-17 does not have an open cockpit. Consequently, with a high-quality spary-skirt there won't be any substantial cockpit leakage the way there is with the other boats you mention.
Freeburn - I'm curious what Folbot's response is, but it's my understanding that Dupont has actually discontinued production of Hypalon. There's a Folbot video showing how to assemble the Kodiak, and the hull is Elvaloy, so I doubt they'll be able to manufacture a new Kodiak with a Hypalon hull.
It's my understanding that other manufacturers are still producing Hypalon-equivalents under different brand names, but I don't think Folbot offers anything other than Elvaloy for all their new boats.
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
Hypalon was discontinued, Dupont closed the only plant that made the product in 2010. There is still some old stock available out there but it has not been available for boat builders for several years.
g
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Folbot just got back to me about this issue as well, and you are both correct that their lineup is now all Elvaloy. I am curious to see if they can help me figure out an alternative...perhaps an old stock model of Hypalon or something...but I am not getting my hopes up yet.
Apathizer, as you pointed out the 400lb weight capacity is plenty enough for myself paddling solo. Should be able to fit all my gear with ease. The ability to use an off-brand spray skirt is also a big plus.
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
Freeburn,
Not to press a point, but it strikes me that you may be putting a huge weight on the service and warranty, and maybe some advice from experience might help here. Folbot used to have some quality issues that made the service guarantee crucial. They have fixed most if not all of the quality issues and now have trouble free boats. I can't speak to the frequency of problems with those boats, but I can tell you that I have never had an issue with my Klepper (with one exception) or Feathercraft, both bought new and used frequently or my 45 year old Klepper, bought used and paddled weekly. I am sure Longhaul owners have the same experience. The boats are very, very well made and when something DOES go wrong it is usually caused by the owner. I have to admit to crash landing my Quattro in the surf on a deserted Florida Key, landing sideways on a huge partially submerged stump. There was no apparent damage until I got back to land 3 days later. When I took the kayak apart i learned that the port/stern gunwale had snapped in half. Don't know if that would have happened with a wooden frame, but my carbon frame broke clean in two. I called Klepper and fessed up to the break being my doing, they said "no problem" and promptly sent TWO gunwales (so that I would have a matched pair in the stern) at no charge. Now, the other surprise here is the redundancy on these kayaks, i paddled and sailed for 3 days with not so much as a groan from the boat. Amazing.
The one area where there is no redundancy is the hull, so you should not venture out overnight unless you are confident you can repair a cut.
Just a few more $.02
g
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forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Going simply off of advice from other users I would pick the Long Haul. I haven't heard any criticism about durability, performance, storage capacity, or service. The biggest reason why I am not going down that route is the difficulty of transporting such a craft in three large heavy bags.
DoiNomazi made it clear that he was willing to go to extremes to get his Long Haul to the final destination, but the intrinsic value of a folding kayak in my mind is the ability to obtain a boat that could accomplish the goals of my trip while still being able to pack down small enough to transport across the country with me on a major airline. If I was to go with a Long Haul, than it seems I minus well just try to figure out the logistics and expenses required to fly my Valley Avocet hardshell out instead.
Does this make sense? I have also set aside budgeting for this trip in general so it isn't the price of the Long Haul that turns me away. Although I would prefer to stay under $2500, I am willing to make what could be a once in a lifetime purchase for a high quality boat for $1000 more. The inability to pack down is all that is keeping me from pulling the trigger at this point.
Of course, I greatly appreciate your points gbellware. Let me know if my logic makes sense, or if you think there is an easy way to solve this issue that I just haven't thought of.
Being a Long Haul owner, you could say i'm biased, however, it seems to me you are looking for a kayak to use on an expedition lasting 2 week. most all other kayaks don't have the capacity to carry that much weight. I would rather own a no compromise kayak that will last many many years. Great stability and versatility is important to me even though I will never go on such a demanding trip. I believe in buying a kayak that exceeds my needs just in case something happens that I was not expecting. "Fly on Southwest and your bags fly free".
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Posts: 282 FrankP wrote:
Being a Long Haul owner, you could say i'm biased, however, it seems to me you are looking for a kayak to use on an expedition lasting 2 week. most all other kayaks don't have the capacity to carry that much weight. I would rather own a no compromise kayak that will last many many years. Great stability and versatility is important to me even though I will never go on such a demanding trip. I believe in buying a kayak that exceeds my needs just in case something happens that I was not expecting. "Fly on Southwest and your bags fly free".
For me (and Freeburn it seems) it's a question of balancing weight/packing size and durability/function/paddling characteristics. As you and many others have said, Long Hauls appear to be great as uncompromised expedition boats, but their packed size, weight, and price are deal-breakers for me.
I'll be using my yak mainly for day trips as well as some short-medium tours of 3-5 days. Consequently, I need/want a boat with moderate storage capacity that offers a happy medium between stability and performance. So for me Pakboats seems to fit the bill. They're fairly stable but still pretty fast and nimble, compact, light and fairly easy to assemble. The XT-17 is also reputedly pretty durable, though not as durable as Long Hauls, Kleppers, or probably even the Kodiak. But since Pakboats are so easily repaired, this is only a minor weakness in my view.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
Or you can go with a Feathercraft and have durability, speed and the ability to pack your kayak and gear in 2 bags plus a carry-on. Another option would be a sectional hardshell
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm Posts: 301 Location: Oakland, California
Conor,
Well, a lot of advice for you in all our posts, some general and some very specific! Now might be a good time to take a step back, let things sink in and then take a fresh look at the most likely candidates for you. Don't feel pressured to decide now, the better new kayaks should be around when you are ready. It is unfortunate that we don't have a folding kayak center somewhere where you can see and try them all!
Re. number of bags: Yes, many full length singles require multiple bags. The traditional solution is to have a folding kayak cart and transport the bags stacked on top and strapped down. That is how they are taken on trains in Europe. Just as handy at airports and to get to and from the water.
Chris
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forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD Chris, thank you for your response. I have become aware that I often ask questions that result in cyclical discussions, and I am definitely guilty of asking questions tailored for the answers I want to hear, and I have tried to be more open-minded.
I have now begun the process of trying to find individuals or companies in my area with boats available that I can check out. As people have mentioned before, this discussion is a great way for me to narrow down my research, but until I see and paddle a craft I shouldn't make a decision...and I agree.
I have spoken with Folbot and will be setting up a meeting in the Virginia area to see the Kodiak. Does anyone happen to know of places in the mid-Atlantic that would have a Long Haul, Klepper or Feathercraft available to see? I know there is a place on the Eastern Shore of Maryland where they supposedly sell PakBoats. Hopefully they will have an XT-17 I can check out.
I know this was originally another user's question, and I apologize for taking it over, but thanks to everyone for being so receptive and helpful in regards to my barrage of questions. I will let you all know what the final decision is (just don't hold your breath)!
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
New York Kayak is a Feathercraft dealer. Klepper is out of business. Long Haul may be able to put you in touch with a local owner
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Feedback on the Pakboat Puffin Saranac: I spotted your question about this a couple pages back. I've owned both an XT-15 and an earlier Puffin, the Sport (which has the same frame design as the newer Puffins.) The frames are stronger and stiffer in the XT and Quest models. I would be hesitant to commit a Puffin to substantial loading and rough water. I consider them more of a day touring design. If you look on most of the folder manufacturer sites you can find PDF's of the instruction manuals -- looking at these can give you a better idea of how the frames are built.
Yes, the XT cockpit coaming will support an aftermarket spray skirt. We bought a Harmony skirt for the XT-15 which fits nicely.
And, yes, the triple sponsons are a nice backup feature. The first time we took the XT-15 out we had inadvertently mounted the seat wrong and a sharp edge on a fitting made a small puncture in the lower sponson on one side. When we realized it had gone flat we just opened the valve on the corresponding one on the other side o balance it and the kayak performed fine for the rest of the day until we were able to get home and fix it (an easy repair that took a few minutes and has held up fine for 3 years now).
I don't remember if I mentioned to you that Folding Kayak Adventures in Colorado has a free classified ad page for owners of Feathercrafts to advertise their used boats for sale. Somebody about 90 miles west of you (Centreville, VA) is selling an older Khatsalano for $2000.
There have also been occasional deals on eBay lately on Feathercrafts. Not sure what the deal is with this Big Kahuna -- 6 offers but the $2200 is about the reasonable price for one that vintage if in good shape. Not worth more than that.
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Thank you kerryonkayaks! I knew there had to be some substantial difference between the XT and the Puffin builds. I also read that the skin of the Puffin isn't the same thickness as the XT.
I have been visiting that Colorado Kayaks page religiously and sent a message the Khatsalano owner just yesterday! Hoping to get down there to visit/demo it so I can get a feel for the product.
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
If you are still shopping for a boat, you might want to know that Pakboat is selling some demo models of their larger XT's, an XT-16 (with dual deck and set up to take a sail) and an XT-17 with both solo and tandem decks. Prices are $1595 which is a nice 20% discount.
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Posts: 282 KerryOnKayaks wrote: If you are still shopping for a boat, you might want to know that Pakboat is selling some demo models of their larger XT's, an XT-16 (with dual deck and set up to take a sail) and an XT-17 with both solo and tandem decks. Prices are $1595 which is a nice 20% discount.
Yeah, that XT-17 with both the single and double deck set-up seems fantastic, especially at that price. It gives you so many options: It can be a high-volume expedition boat or double boat for day paddles.
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
I actually just closed on a boat a few days ago and it arrived on Friday. Another user pointed me to an ad selling a used K1 in Alaska. The seller gave me a great deal considering it was a once used 2009 model. All the pieces look like they have never been touched. Very excited!
However, I am keeping an eye out for a second boat for my brother (who is out of the country for the time being) so I will definitely pass those Pakboat deals past him to see what he thinks. Thanks for the tip!
Congratulations! Great boat -- my K-1 was older (1996) with a more awkward frame and heavier fabric than yours will have, but it was a fantastic boat in the water and very bombproof. You've chosen well.
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm Posts: 301 Location: Oakland, California
Conor,
Glad it worked out for you! See, a lightly used boat is often the way to go: You get the boat you want at a price you can afford. Or put an other way, the better boat for the price of a lesser one?
Enjoy it out there!
Chris
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knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm Posts: 282
Congrats. I recognize that the K-1 is a great expedition boat, even if it's overkill for my intended usage. In addition to the Quest 155, I'm also keeping my eye out for a decent used boat. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until a used Quest 155 emerges either on their web site or elsewhere. [There's someone selling a used one in Vancouver BC, but she wants way too much for it.]
Last edited by Apathizer on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
The K1 had been a "blue sky" kind of boat for me until I was pointed to this seller in Alaska. The price I negotiated made it comparable to a new Folbot, or a little more than a new PakBoat. Was watching the assembly video last night as I went over the components and everything is essentially "like new" condition.
The Quest 155 may be a solid option for my brother if I can't help him find a deal like I did.
forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Time lapse video of my first assembly. The seller had packed it up with the hatch rims still on the skin, but no damage was evident. Everything else was in wonderful condition! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlNjYMX ... e=youtu.be
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Wow! Straightforward assembly the first time, my hat's off to you. I had a couple of false starts my first time back in 2002 and had to undo and repeat a couple of steps.
You will love that boat -- wait until you've had it out in conditions and you will really appreciate how solid it feels in rough water.
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forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
I only had it out for a half hour or so after my first assembly before darkness came, but my immediate reaction was how smooth it felt when approaching powerboat wakes. Can't wait to get it out in some serious water.
lord high faltbotmeister Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am Posts: 822 Location: atlanta, georgia
Nice job, great video, thanks for posting. And yes, part of the magic of a well-built folder is the ability to competently flex and absorb wave action that would otherwise rattle your bones. Pure pleasure, once you get used to it.
g
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am Posts: 532 Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Couple of tips on preserving your new boat -- one won't be applicable over the winter but you need to be aware of once the weather warms up: ALWAYS open the inflation valves on the sponson tubes when it is not in the water (and the valves on the inflatable seat if it has one and any flotation bags inside the hull). I forgot to do so one hot summer day and the expanding air inside while I was transporting the kayak on the roof rack ruptured one of the sponson seams. It was a real pain to get it out of the skin to repair and replace it.
The other absolutely important thing is to ALWAYS use Boeshield T-6 spray or drops on every frame joint every time you set it up (unless you will immediately be breaking it down the same day you paddle.) You can buy Boeshield T-6 (I recommend the small dropper bottle) in most good bike shops like Performance Bike. It's messy so I always keep a roll of paper towels or a rag handy when I am assembling.
Also, if your boat didn't come with a patch kit, buy one from Feathercraft or put one together yourself. Field repairs are quick and simple. One thing I have added to my repair kit is a baggie with a small strip of Eternabond brand peel-and-stick micropolymer patching tape. You can get it from RV supply sites. It will seal just about any material in a pinch and can even be applied to wet surfaces. It could prove pretty handy for your Alaska trip.
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forum fanatic Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am Posts: 41 Location: Annapolis, MD
Great stuff! The sponson tip is great to be aware of, as of yet I have just been putting it together and taking it apart right before and after paddling so the tubes haven't been inflated long (it also hasn't been very warm). Good to know though, I can imagine that would be a pain.
The seller included an untouched repair kit and an unopened bottle of Boeshield. The first time I assembled it I applied the Boeshield to all the joints. I plan on doing it again this week. I also appreciate your tip about the Externabond repair patch. I had never heard of that before and it certainly sounds like a must-have for any long distance paddle in harsh weather.
Got out yesterday afternoon for a good 10 miles in some pretty windy and choppy conditions. Couldn't believe how well the boat handled it all!
We fly to Florida for a week-long vacation every winter, as well as flying other places (including England annually.) We're frustrated by having to rent big sit-on-top kayak/tubs. (We could rent better boats locally, but week-long rentals are expensive and that requires fussing with rental car roof racks.) Having a boat with us would allow us to paddle more often on the spur of the moment.
So we're thinking of buying folding kayaks. Started out thinking about a Pakboat Puffin Swift, but they're discontinued and have become hard to find. Right now we're leaning towards Citibots - very light, very small, quick-ish set up time, cute colors, great warranty. (A bit more $ than I'd like to spend though, but I want something that feels high-quality that will last for years.)
Will something like a Citibot be an improvement over the typical rental sit-on-top? We paddle P&H Scorpio LV's at home (the folders would be for the rare guest paddle) - while we don't expect the speed of those kayaks, we want something that at least has some decent speed and maneuverability. Our typical paddle is 3-4 hours, protected waters, with just a dry bag. Fair weather only.
Having something that stays within the airline 50 lb weight limit and baggage size is important. While most airlines (except Southwest) will charge us for an extra bag, that's less $ than even a brief kayak rental. Our last Florida trip had something like $250 in kayak rental fees alone...
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am Posts: 575 Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
I’ve never paddled a Citibot, so I’ll let other people comment on how they compare to hardshells, or to rental sit-on-tops. I paddled a Scorpio on a course, and it felt a lot like my Feathercraft Wisper. (I really like the Wisper, but it’s a more sophisticated boat than I “need”, for my gentle leisure paddling.)
There’s a rule-of-thumb in folding kayaks that the better the boat, the longer the set-up time. (Others will argue about that, of course, and it depends on your definition of “better.”) If you really want to avoid using roof-racks, you’re committed to assembling/ packing for every paddle, and in that case, assembly convenience needs to be high priority. If you’re prepared to use a roof-rack, then you only need to assemble once on a trip, and thereafter the boats are ready. A friend and I flew to a holiday destination (internal UK, south England to north Scotland) with our Feathercrafts. We used an inflatable roofrack with our hire car. Some of my comments, and those of other users of the inflatable racks, can be found here: http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... =3&t=51468
- along with a photo of our loaded car.
For “assemble every time” – “most convenient” casual paddling, look at the better end of inflatable boats. They’re not fast, but cheaper than most folders, and assembly is simple and quick. Innova make good boats, but there are others. This website is has a lot of good information about inflatables: http://www.theboatpeople.com/
forum fanatic Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:26 pm Posts: 28
My family has both a Folbot Citibot and a Folbot Kiawiah and are very pleased with both. I would suggest you go to the folbot forum website and read owners comments
Here is the link:
I recently bought a new boat (Cooper from Folbot). I got impatient and purchased new but I can say that folding boats do appear on eBay, Craigslist, this forum, and folbotforum.com regularly. Many times they are half the price of the new boat.
The Cooper, packed in the bag with the expedition kit, weighs 50 lbs. That has the Hypalon skin. I think the material used before Hypalon was lighter. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks. I've spent a lot of time on the Folbot forum. While a Cooper would provide more performance, it's a lot heavier (currently 39 lbs vs 25 for the Citibot) and bulkier for travelling. I can find them used though, a big asset. (I started looking at Aleuts, but I want something that fits into one bag.)
A Kiawah is lighter (31 lbs) and tempting (we each weigh under its weight limit) but they're hard to find used. $1300 for each Citibot is high but doable - $1800 each for two new Kiawahs won't be happening.
I thought about one of the Innovas but get mixed reviews on their performance and rigidity. Like all of these boats, they certainly have devoted fans.
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am Posts: 575 Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
With weight critical, be aware that some manufacturers are "optimistic" with the quoted weights - for example, are things like seat and footrest included when they weigh it? And for sure, they don't include the weight of the bag; hence Kelly's useful info that a "39lb" Cooper packs at 50lb. If possible, ask here or on Folbot forum about what weight people reckon for their packed boats.
The early model Coopers did have a lighter hull skin, but I believe it was still heavier than the quoted weight.
Thanks Mary. You're right - Folbot forum folks report that the Cooper just nudges 50 lbs (and an inch or two over airline luggage dimensions). The Citibot goes from 24 to 30 packed.
Plus, as my dear wife puts it, "I don't pack light."
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am Posts: 394 Location: Coastal New Jersey
I'm in a similar situation. I'm a long time hardshell paddler but want something to mess about with while down in Florida for 10 weeks in the winter and I refuse to cartop a hardshell 1200 miles each way. Weight and assembly time are both important and for those reasons I've been attracted to the Folbot Citibot and Innova Safari either of which seem reasonably priced. While I certainly don't expect either of them to hold a pace with the 17' x 22" boats that I usuaully paddle, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a cruising speed of 3 to 3 1/2 mph. I prefer a cockpit to which I can attach a spray skirt [Florida can be chilly in February] rather than a sit on top like the Safari where I would need a wet suit. The Citibot's very wide [34"] beam makes me think that it will be a sluggish performer as it seems designed for the first-time kayaker. However, Folbot offers a 30 day return policy and if their boat doesn't fit your needs they will take it back and refund your money. I not sure that even Feathercraft will do that.
Site Admin Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm Posts: 1748 Location: Southeast Michigan
Check the Citiboat reviews on the main http://foldingkayaks.org pages, too.
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Quote: we don't expect the speed of those kayaks, we want something that at least has some decent speed and maneuverability. Our typical paddle is 3-4 hours, protected waters, with just a dry bag. Fair weather only.
Sounds like Citibot. Or inflatable (Inova Helios? Safari? can't say). Don't confuse inflatable kayaks with float tubes - check this site section on inflatables.
"Some decent speed" you won't get with those. Without wind (wind is a killjoy in SOT and inflatable) you will probably see a slightly better speed compared to SOT.
Get optional keel strips if you are getting a Citibot.
Keep in mind that assembling every day, and then cleaning/rinsing/drying is some chore even with a small boat like Citi or inflatable. On a hot summer day you might not want to assemble any folder - even the one that takes 12-15 minutes - for mere 3-4 hours paddling. Inflatable eliminates assembling pains, though drying and cleaning chore remains. Check what people say about Citi on Folbot forum as well http://www.folbotforum.com/ . Last time I checked (last year) they still had problem with the seat - something with screws protruding.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
Honestly, Citibots will have the same performance as those "tubs" If you want sea kayak performance, buy a sea kayak or build your own, like a Yost. Your boat and kit can be placed in 2 bags for air travel and combined for land or sea travel.
Boat that packs in 2 bags is too bulky for air travel these days - unless it's a privileged group like 1st class, frequent flyers, militaries etc. Cross-Atlantic flights tend to have more generous allowance than domestic European and North American flights, but 2 bags is still a lot. And this is more pain every time when bags are transferred between planes or from plane to another transportation. Even checking it out at carousel is a pain, they often unload it at a window for "bulky and fragile items" somewhere in obscure corner separately from all your other luggage.
The best boat for flying is inflatable, and one-bag boat like Citibot or K-light or Kahuna is the second best. The best boat for paddling is a different thing, though - and here I would place these 3-4 options in a reversed order, with Citibot and inflatable being less desirable than sea kayaks like K-light or Kahuna.
Citibot, btw, is quite a bulky package - it breaks apart into 3ft long pieces; and to the stated 24 lbs you should add at least 3 lbs bag, 3 lbs of keel strips, and 1 lb skirt.
50 lbs limit (for boat) I wouldn't take too seriously - any decent boat with bag will weigh close to 50 lbs or more, not including the accessories like PFD, skirt, 4-piece paddle etc etc. And you always have other items too, so you are guaranteed to exceed 2x50 limit when flying on vacation with boat. My carrier Alaska Air serving West coast of Canada-US-Mexico no longer has 2x50 limit - any bag after the 1st one is charged extra, even if it's 50 lbs. So, just be prepared to shell out more cash.
Tom's boats... they look good for the stated purpose - day paddling; but you have to make it - Tom doesn't normally sell boats. They are lighter than comparable commercial versions; but they are also simpler than commercial models, with fewer bells and whistles, and are less "fool-proof". Commercial boats are designed for use by any dimwit, because some customers are.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
2 bags for transpacific flights and SW Airlines total 100 lbs. Or you can pack in 1 bag and pay overweight charges
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm Posts: 1398 Location: South Salem, NY
Chuck, you probably travel with your boat more than most of us... planes, trains, bike...
Your Khatsalano is a rocket ship of a boat as well isn't it?
What kind of package(s) do you usually end up with when you are on the move with your boat?
I, too, think that the Citibot, only ten feet long and almost three feet wide, has got to be classified in the "tub" category. I've not paddled it but i have paddled a few wide beamed ten footers and they were, without exception, in the tub or maybe even coracle class. I'm thinking now of waiting for a good used Kahuna to come along which would replace one of my two hardshells and buying a new Innova Safari. Most reports have it that the Safari is just a lot of fun to paddle and its light weight and quick assemby make it very appealing for spontaneous messing about. The qualities of the Kahuna are unknown to me but Ken Fink who is one of the few remaining Feathercraft dealers has invited me to paddle with him on Tampa Bay next January when I get down to the Gulf Coast. I'll buy lunch.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska DLee wrote: Chuck, you probably travel with your boat more than most of us... planes, trains, bike...
Your Khatsalano is a rocket ship of a boat as well isn't it?
What kind of package(s) do you usually end up with when you are on the move with your boat?
D
For air travel to Asia and back I get a 2 bag allowance and 50 lbs each. I take the Khats and a big duffle and mix my gear between the 2 bags. I can pack the backpack heavy as well for non air portages. The Khats is a great travel boat. Not as fast as the frame is a bit loose and the skin is well patched. I may be adding a rudder. I was out in some 40 kt winds fully packed and weathercocking was a problem. I basically braced and broached on a 7 mile crossing
Jake wrote: I, too, think that the Citibot, only ten feet long and almost three feet wide, has got to be classified in the "tub" category. ...I'm thinking now of waiting for a good used Kahuna to come along which would replace one of my two hardshells and buying a new Innova Safari.
Well, I suggested earlier for flying and daytrips to consider inflatables as well, and I stand by this opinion. Still, according to specs, Safari is same short and heavy as Citibot, only less beam width - 28" vs 34". Considering flat bottom of Safari and V-shape of Citibot, the "real" beam or waterline beam of Safari would differ by less than 6" - may be 3" or 4", I can't say. Though, 3" difference in width is still a lot, judging by several boats that had a chance to paddle. OTH inflatables like Safari with dull bow and a lot of wind resistance can't go too fast anyway. I doubt that Safari is much better performing boat than Citibot - if at all.
Quote: Most reports have it that the Safari is just a lot of fun to paddle and its light weight and quick assemby ...
Most of those reporters very likely didn't paddle a faster and more responsive boat. Any boat is fun, IMO. Assembling - yes, pumping inflatable is easier than assembling a folder, but this only matters for trips with duration one day or less. For overnight weekend trip to assemble folders like Citi, Aleut or even Kahuna is totally tolerable pain.
Last edited by Alm on Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
I have a Helios II that is ok solo and for the type of paddling I do with it, it is on par with an Aerius 2 ymmv
tsunamichuck wrote: 2 bags for transpacific flights and SW Airlines total 100 lbs.
Looks like SW has a poor safety record. I wonder whether United Airlines will become the next weak link, with maintenance outsourced to shoddy services of Singapore company in Arizona http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flying-cheaper/ . Mechanics are hired for $14 an hour without checking their papers, no license required, some mechanics are immigrants on working visas that don't know enough English to read repair manuals. Horrible story. ST is the biggest contractor of this kind in the US, btw.
Good news is that my prevalent carrier Alaska Air is doing maintenance only in properly licensed US and Canadian facilities. I'll probably move to Baja permanently when retire - flying becomes too complicated...
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am Posts: 394 Location: Coastal New Jersey
Safety record? If Southwest lets my bags fly free, count me aboard! Anyway, probably safer than Aeroflot.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
No major crashes for Southwest with Alaska having a crash in 2000. Figures NPR would rip on SW. They still make money. Good service and reasonable prices. Much better than the union run airlines
faltbootemeister Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am Posts: 149 Location: Vancouver BC Alm wrote: Quote:
Most reports have it that the Safari is just a lot of fun to paddle and its light weight and quick assemby ...
Most of those reporters very likely didn't paddle a faster and more responsive boat. Any boat is fun, IMO. Assembling - yes, pumping inflatable is easier than assembling a folder, but this only matters for trips with duration one day or less. For overnight weekend trip to assemble folders like Citi, Aleut or even Kahuna is totally tolerable pain.
Where in the world do you come up with such ridiculous generalizations? The safari is a fun boat to paddle, period. Has it ever occurred to you Alex, that speed on the water is not the be all end all goal of every boat? Or of every paddler?
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:43 pm Posts: 207 Location: Vancouver, Canada Alm wrote: tsunamichuck wrote:
I have a Helios II [inflatable] that is ok solo and for the type of paddling I do with it, it is on par with an Aerius 2 ymmv
... in other words (trying not to be rude to Aerius II solo paddlers) - not a fast boat ...
just wondering... ...how would you define a fast boat?
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:43 pm Posts: 207 Location: Vancouver, Canada Alm wrote: Well, I suggested earlier for flying and daytrips to consider inflatables as well, and I stand by this opinion. Still, according to specs, Safari is same short and heavy as Citibot, only less beam width - 28" vs 34". Considering flat bottom of Safari and V-shape of Citibot, the "real" beam or waterline beam of Safari would differ by less than 6" - may be 3" or 4", I can't say. Though, 3" difference in width is still a lot, judging by several boats that had a chance to paddle. OTH inflatables like Safari with dull bow and a lot of wind resistance can't go too fast anyway. I doubt that Safari is much better performing boat than Citibot - if at all.
This Safari having a flat bottom statement made me go back to some pictures I took when I first assembled my Safari. Not sure its bottom is that flat.
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knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am Posts: 394 Location: Coastal New Jersey
Defining just what is "fast" is an interesting question. With the exception of surfskis and long, very narrow competition kayaks, most boats will move along "easily"[that's important] at around 3.5 to 4.0 mph for considerable stretches of time. If you work at it you can push the pace up to 4.5 mph or so but who wants to work that hard? And even then you're still going slower than the jogging pace of an over weight non-athlete. More important to me is how easily the hull moves at 3.5 mph for hours at a time, how well the boat behaves in slightly gnarly conditions and does it suffer from excessive weathercocking when running across or down wind and how comfortable is the kayak for an all-day paddle and, maybe most important of all, do you experience a sense of joy, that undefined je ne sais quoi each time you take the boat out for a paddle?
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am Posts: 575 Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
I used to have a Safari. I found it pleasant to paddle when out alone. But once or twice, when out with people in plastic kayaks of similar size, I was struggling to keep up what they considered a relaxed pace. I don't have that struggle if I'm paddling the same boat as everyone else, so that led me to believe that the Safari is slow compared to hardshells.
I never did formal speed tests. But when I switched from the Safari to a Puffin Swift, I noted on one trip that a distance which took me an hour in the Safari took 40 minutes in the Swift.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska paraglia wrote: ... in other words (trying not to be rude to Aerius II solo paddlers) - not a fast boat ...
just wondering... ...how would you define a fast boat?[/quote]
Before 2007, Anything I happened to be paddling
Nowadays it is what ever other people happen to be paddling
Chuck, I understand that completely. ditto for bicycling. I found myself looking down at the rear deraileur as I peddled and thinking, "What's the matter with this bike, this gearing used to be so easy" I guess i should be happy that I can still remember where I put the bike the night before.
faltbootemeister Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am Posts: 149 Location: Vancouver BC
The reality is that any inflatable will be slower than a hardshell of comparable beam and length. Then there's the paddler. I've been out with hardshells where I'm struggling to keep up and failing. I've also been out and led the pack. On flat water I'm usually at the back of the pack. In rough water I'm closer to front.
I just think it's important to note that despite Alex's opinions let's just take note of the fact that he hasn't actually got any experience on the subject beyond I believe one trip in an inflatable. It's fine to prefer one type of boat over another but honestly his opinions are just talk. Opinions not supported by any experience or any facts.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
I have doing lots of day tripping with my Kahuna and/or Khats. Assembly takes 20 min for the Kahuna, 30 for the Khats. Small amount of time to spend for the freedom of being able to paddle. 10 minutes or so to pump the Helios. I carry a boat with me on my travels. Never regretted having one even if I never got the chance to paddle, but really regretted not having one with me. Yes it is harder to travel by air these days but "Nothing worth half as much doing as simply messing about in boats" sums it up.
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am Posts: 394 Location: Coastal New Jersey
Chuck: I've been looking around for a "previously abused" Kahuna or K-Light. Extra normal wear and tear, bullet holes, etc, OK if the price is right but Feathercrat [Theresa?] tells me that the K-Light would be a bit too small for my modest 5' 11" 165 #. I hate to be uncomfortable in any boat so maybe I should look elsewhere?
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
I had a K Light and used it quite a bit and I am 5'8" and was around 175-180lbs with 9.5 feet and was fine. The Kahuna is a really volumious boat and really so is the Klight so I think you would be fine. Klights pop up on Ebay, P Net ,here and Craigslist so keep an open eye
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
Went solo today with my Khats. Was supposed to go with a friend but he cancelled this am. I was supposed to meet another friend with a hardshell at 1pm. I offered Jeff the use of the Kahuna and had offerd to transport it to a subway station where I change buses.Jeff lives at the other end of thatsubway line and it a 30 minute ride. Jeff declined because it "is a hassle to carry that boat and put it together" ( I have the Kahuna from bag to water in 20-25 minutes) I was at my put in at 1030, on the water at 1110 and found I was able to paddle to about 1230 and maybe 5 miles at a workout pace.I called my friend and told him I would meet him about 1:45. He was cool because he was stuck in traffic. I paddled back and arrived about 1:50. No sign of my friend. He was still stuck in traffic. I paddled a couple more miles and took out about 2:30. I was letting the boat dry for a bit and my friend pulled in about 2:45. I was paddling in a workout mode, so I helped my friend unload and called it a day. Finished packing the Khats about 3:15, home by 4:15. Skin is drying on clothesline but was pretty dry when I got home. Jeff called about 6:30.He paddled for an hour and then had a 2 hr drive home.
I spent then an hour assembling, disassembling. Had a nice walk to and from the bus stops ( I use a Feathercraft pack cart) and a great, hard workout paddle. The Wenyu is about 10 miles from my house. Bus fare roundtrip is 2RMB, about 30 cents US. Beats the heck out of sitting in Beijing traffic for 4-5 hours with a hardshell on the roof for a 1 hour paddle. Something to think about when someone writes that assembling disassembling a folder for a mere 3-4 hours is hardly worth it.
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am Posts: 394 Location: Coastal New Jersey
Very cool outing. A Philadelphia kayaker [now relocated to the Seattle area] who goes by the pseudonym Dubside traveled all over the mostly urban Philly, New Jersey, Delaware area by public transport pulling his Kahuna/Wisper on a folding cart and launching at the most improbable places. His Wisper is all black, he dresses all-black and was threatened with arrest one night by the Coast Guard when they found him paddling under the Walt Whitman bridge on the Delaware River. Can't blame the CG, he does look suspicious and is more than a little eccentric. But I watched him put his Wisper together in 10 minutes.
K-light will have enough payload for 165 paddler, but 5'11" might be a tight fit. I'm 5' 7" and feel alright in a Big Kahuna, where fore cockpit rib is farther away. I would feel alright in a regular Kahuna (same cockpit as K-light), and I feel alright in the small cockpit of hardshell (though there is no rib in the latter). With 5'11" you'd better try before buying K-light or regular Kahuna. Shoe size matters too - these boats have low deck, and size larger than #10 can be a problem.
Kahuna takes me usually 40-45 minutes to assemble, including rudder and hatches. About 30 minutes without rudder. This is pretty average time for many. Chuck is tough, above the average, I bow respectfully... I think with enormous mental concentration I could assemble Kahuna without rudder and hatches in 20-25 minutes, but this would leave me emotionally exhausted for the rest of the day, if not physically exhausted as well.
Yes, pumping inflatable is 2-3 times quicker and less exhausting than Kahuna or K-light; and it packs more compact; but - according to those with a lot of experience with this - any inflatable is slower than hardshell of same length and width. FC boats have very tight frame, they are closer to hardshell than other folders, so I would put an equation sign here, i.e. inflatable of the same length and width will be slower. In a head and side wind an inflatable will definitely be slower than a framed V-hull, it can't be any other way for all physics laws known to me.
Keep in mind that, unlike Kahuna, used K-light often come with an older type of skin, which is Hypalon, a little heavier and with a seam. Those prior to 2001(?) will have Hypalon. Can't find the chronology on FC website now that they've changed web design. I've grumbled already at those changes (and not just me), now they've put assembling instructions list in white over dark blue - is there anybody that finds this easier to read, I wonder.
faltbootemeister Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am Posts: 149 Location: Vancouver BC Alm wrote: Yes, pumping inflatable is 2-3 times quicker and less exhausting than Kahuna or K-light; and it packs more compact; but - according to those with a lot of experience with this - any inflatable is slower than hardshell of same length and width. FC boats have very tight frame, they are closer to hardshell than other folders, so I would put an equation sign here, i.e. inflatable of the same length and width will be slower. In a head and side wind an inflatable will definitely be slower than a framed V-hull, it can't be any other way for all physics laws known to me.
Is that a fact? Can you then please explain to my why on an outing to Nelson Island in June, returning and heading into a 25 knot wind from the south west, with 1-3 chop I was easily able to keep up with a fibreglass double? I also left a number of 15 and 17 foot hardshells behind me too. I'm dying to know!!!!
paddlesheep wrote: Can you then please explain to my why on an outing to Nelson Island in June, returning and heading into a 25 knot wind from the south west, with 1-3 chop I was easily able to keep up with a fibreglass double?
Simple. Like you said: "...Then there's the paddler". In inflatable you were able to keep up with FG double, and two paddlers like you in FG double would've left single inflatable faaaar behind...
Choppy waters (not the wind, but exactly - the waves) can work to advantage of wider and more stable boats as well, though this isn't anything specific to inflatables or folders or hardshells - it's just that wider hull, otherwise slow, needs less efforts to stay upright. Wasn't the case with FG double vs inflatable anyway - both boats are pretty stable.
In all the years of Watertribe EC paddling marathon in Florida, a multiday affair in varying weather conditions - I recall one account of doing it in inflatable. There could've been a few more that didn't have much to tell, - I don't think there was too many. The guy finished - which is an achievement in itself, as many people didn't. There is one more guy in another class - inflatable catamaran, and this is about it. That marathon is good for testing and selecting what works the best, i.e. better overall result with same amount of efforts, but folders are not popular in "expedition kayaks class" and neither are inflatables. Racing kayaks make a separate EC class, I'm not talking about those now.
faltbootemeister Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am Posts: 149 Location: Vancouver BC
Thanks but I know all about the Watertribe guy in the Stearns inflatable, and in fact I may have been the one to raise that as an example in the first place. According to you though he should have been dead last, I mean, he was in a slow 10 foot boat! Too bad that guy didn't read this forum, you could have set him straight.
I think you make a lot of uninformed assumptions that don't really translate well into the real world. Yes an inflatable is slow-"er" than a comprable length and width hardshell, a fact that you harp on about over and over and over again. In the real world, on the water, it's just ONE of the factors that determine how fast you get from point a to b.
knight of the folding kayak realm Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am Posts: 394 Location: Coastal New Jersey
Amazing how many canards there are about paddle craft in general: short boats are "slow", long boats are "fast", infatables are "uncontrolable" in wind and so on. A long, narrow surfski paddled by, say, some one like a Greg Barton is relatively "fast". Powered by Jake here, that same ski might get up to 6 mph for a couple hundred yards or so before I collapsed in aerobic agony or capsized. All of the kayaks I've paddled have been in the "slow" catagory, long short or otherwise. But I've had more fun with shorter boats [12 to 15'] than longer ones.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
Ah, the horrible chore of drying the Helios. 5 minutes to pump up and let dry. Got my sight set on a Traveller to bring to China next Spring.
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am Posts: 575 Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
I have only flown with my Wisper once (UK internal trip) and the bag wasn't questioned. It's worth noting that the bag is bigger than it needs to be. I packed paddles, repair kit, airbag and (for the flight) the pack wheels and frame inside the bag. If you think the airline might be picky about the size, pack just the boat, and strap round the outside to take up slack. You'll get the size down from Feathercraft's quoted measurements.
I've shown how I packed the boat on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3154 . I think you can see from the creases along the side of the bag that it is not filled to full thickness.
I've heard people say that if you want to check-in a bag that is in some way "borderline," it's good practice to get there early, and be polite and friendly to the staff. They are less likely to hassle you.
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am Posts: 1231 Location: Anchorage Alaska
Never had an issue with my Khatsalano. I use Southwest in the US and if I go to China, the airlines American Air China Hainan have a 100 lb/ 2 bag allowance. You can put your boat in 2 bags.
maryinoxford is correct; the bag is certainly larger than necessary if it's just the kayak inside.
With my Wixper XP, I was able to pack EVERYTHING, including pump, rudder, sea sock, etc....with the exception of my paddle (which is a two-piece). I was even able to stuff in the pfd.
Only problem was that I couldn't lift it up afterwards, so that really defeated the purpose. But after a few stints in the gym (which I've been putting off for a couple of summers...and counting), it's nice to know that I can fit it all in if need be.
So if it's just the kayak, you can just fold down the excess and fit within the limits.
forum fan Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:43 pm Posts: 13 Location: bangkok, thailand
I have never had a problem flying with my Wisper XP. In addition to the boat I put my PFD and two 4-piece paddles in the bag, along with charts, rash shirts and a bunch of small stuff.
True Story A good friend of mine was out with a group of friends. He stopped and started to take off his dry cag, Just when he got it over his head, he capsized. You can imagine the scene, an expe- rienced paddler, whom everyone knows can roll first time, is upside down. What his friends did not realise was that he was trapped and didn't have his paddle. Someone eventually decided that something was not quite right and paddled over to see what was happening. When they reached the kayak they could see
真实的故事我的一个好朋友和一群朋友在一起。他停了下来，开始脱掉干燥的cag，就在他抬起头的时候，他倾覆了。你可以想象这个场景，一个每个人都知道可以第一次滚动的经验丰富的桨手，是颠倒的。他的朋友没有意识到他被困，没有他的划桨。有人最终决定某些东西不太正确并划过去看看发生了什么。当他们到达皮划艇时，他们可以看到可怜的受害者从cackpit敲打，像一个穿着紧身衣的人一样蜷缩起来。他很快就以正确的方式拉起来，但是他需要很长时间才能从缺乏呼吸中恢复过来。将他从水中拉出来的桨手说他已经变蓝并且已经停止了挣扎。谨防！
Mini-review of FeatherCraft Gemini (“AirLiner” double sit-on-top, hybrid folding-inflatable)
Yesterday I spent the day at the sea with a friend, taking his FeatherCraft Gemini for it’s maiden voyage. The weather was gorgeous, we were launching and landing at rocky beaches, and the sea was mild—swells were about 2 feet, and there was a mild surf breaking on the beaches. Shipping lanes and commercial fishing were nearby (co-located, actually), which generated some swells up to 5 or 6 feet and occasional medium waves breaking on the beaches. The ocean, here, is warmed by the Japan Current (I think that’s what it’s called)—the water temperature is reportedly 21 degrees or more from April to December. My experience on this November weekend would seem to bear that out—the water was quite comfortable without any special gear. We paddled for about 2 hours. For those who know Japan: we were at the South end of Miura peninsula, straight south of Tokyo, near Jogashima.
My friend’s FC Gemini is actually a 2002 model—I believe that’s the first year that they were offered. The workmanship could not be better. The design is excellent, with both a retractable skeg and a retractable rudder built in as standard. It fits in a single, medium-sized bag (as bag boats go), and weighs just 23 Kg. This 50-pound package is extremely portable, compared to any other 18-foot folding double that I know of. It comes with a standard cart that is fitted to the bag, and also converts for use with the assembled boat. The cart is not very good (wheels too small, frame to flexible and flimsy), but it is very stowable, and it is very nice that it is included with the boat. I understand that there is a backpack-style bag also available, at extra cost.
Setup took us over an hour, as most folding boats seem to the first time (or, in this case, the second). I’ll venture a guess that the time required could go down to 25 minutes with practice/proficiency—particulary with two regular partners. This is strictly a guess, but that guess would break down to 15 minutes for the boat, and another 10 minutes for attaching seats, etc., to the deck. As I commented in a previous post, I feel that the attaching of the seats is the clumsy aspect of the assembly process. There are just three longitudinal frame members, with all horizontal structure provided by the four large, longitudinal air chambers. Those air chambers fill very quickly with the large double-action pump that comes with the boat.
When we first launched, my friend didn’t have the rudder deployed. I am significantly heavier, I was in the front seat, and we alternated between circling left and circling right. We deployed both the rudder and the skeg, and from then on the boat was very seaworthy and seemed to track pretty well. I did not take a turn in the back seat. The boat moves quite swiftly through the water, and is surprisingly dry. I can’t be sure, since we didn’t get into any radical situations (aside from the ships and fishing boats playing chicken with us—no kidding. In the US, I would be reporting them to the Coast Guard.) It seemed to me that the boat is very seaworthy, with a strong tendency towards dynamic stability, as opposed to initial stability. I prefer my boats to emphasize dynamic stability although, owning a Klepper A2 and a Puffin, I’m usually blessed with an abundance of initial stability. Despite wakes and surf from bad angles, we never had a nervous moment. It slices through the water, and waves, very nicely.
My reservations include the amount of stowage space and the apparent lack of an arrangement for a single paddler. Even with our simple warm-weather, daytripping load, we were pressed for stowage options. I solved our biggest problem by strapping my drybag behind my seat, and ahead of his feet, which does highlight one of the nice aspects of the boat: we whacked paddles several times but, in general, there is quite good seperation between the front and rear paddles, so synchronization isn’t as crucial as in many doubles. I would guess we had over 400 pounds on the boat, and I don’t think it was even breathing hard handling that weight—as befits an 18 foot double. This boat is kept from being quite a good expedition boat only by the stowage issue.
My other reservation is that I think the boat would be severely compromised by the deflation of one of the outer two air chambers. This bothers me, and I would think long and hard about it before buying the boat. This boat is really a hybrid between an inflatable and a folder. I see deflation of air chambers as issue affecting almost all “bagboats”. I have had deflations of the sponsons in both of the folders that I own—surprisingly, it was the Klepper whose behavior became dangerous in this circumstance. At the same time, my two manufacturers, as far as I know, are the only ones that have answers to the issue of sponson deflation. Klepper and Long Haul have “Quattro” versions, which have redundant sponsons on each side (Long Haul sells redundant sponsons that any A2 owner can retrofit if serious paddling or sailing is going to be undertaken—I haven’t gone this route, but I probably should). Pakboats just introduced new sponsons for the Puffins—which I have not seen, but have had described to me—that sound like the definitive answer to this issue. Each of the two sponsons in a Puffin now has two parallel separately-inflated air-chambers, which are also patchable. Although this has added as much as 20% to the weight of new Puffins, I agree with Pakboats that the improvement is well worth it’s weight. As far as I know, none of the other manufacturers have addressed this issue, either, which leads me to feel that any strong criticism of FeatherCraft on this score would be unwarranted.
Who do I think this boat would be best for? That’s pretty easy: A couple living in a warm-water area that wants to be able to do day paddles—together—and occasionally take their boat with them on an airplane, and who has a car with a large trunk. Why a large trunk? Because I think you could leave the seats mostly attached if you were not trying to fit the hull into the bag, and thereby make it a very fast-to-assemble boat. It’s a really nice ride
I recently bought (for a good price) a K1 that no longer folds. I bought it sight unseen and was a bit shocked when I found the frame was much worse than I was lead to believe.Four of the 5 extension bars were seized.The rear deck bar was seized and after cutting the extension bars I found quite a few of the rear sections joins seized as well Replacing all the tubes would probably be over A$1000 so I had to try something else. These are the tricks I learned.
First I filled the boat with fresh water and left it for a week. I soaked some joints in Penetrene - a very thin penetrating lubricant - I soaked paper towel in this and then wrapped aluminum foil around this and left it for a few days-this did work to some degree but not on the extension sleeves. I cut out one of the extension tubes and tried quite a few things that failed. I boiled the joint for 2 hours, I used 2 pipe wrenches,I hammered it, twisted it, put a blow torch on it and cursed quite a bit. Nothing worked on the extension sleeves. Salt crystallizes in the joint and forms a strong bond with the aluminum - it is not really a corrosion situation. I soaked the tube in SaltX - a solvent for salt and while it cleans up the tubes well it did not release the joint
The bow technique worked best - place your knee on the joint and pull on the bar firmly like a hunting bow - this will open the joint a fraction. Tun it over and repeat about 20 times gradually working the joint open. Drip on a bit of Penetrene this worked on all but the sleeved joints but is not without a little risk - if you pull too hard the tube can fail or the sleeve insert can snap, Sometimes the sleeve insert comes loose but that at least frees the joint.
The damaged tubes are pretty easy to work with - you can cut and repair a tube with a sleeve made of the large diameter tube. The aluminum is easy to drill and rivet. You can buy plain tube from Feathercraft to make up the bits you need. this is what I did to fix the extension tubes. Overall the repairscost about $100.
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Alm
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:27 pm
That guy has probably left it assembled for the whole season - or may be for a few years. This is what I always say - if you plan on using a folder as a hardshell, keeping it assembled in a garage, - then get a hardshell.
Make sure you'll lubricate them before assembling, - with Bo-Shield or similar bicycle lubricant. Preferably, - not petroleum based - to prevent possible skin damage. Dave here also gave a good advice recently - on long trips rotate tubes slightly, without dissembling the boat. Rotating extention tubes will be difficult due to pushbuttons, but some of them (probably, on side stringers) are less stressed than others, so you must be able to release the push-button, rotate back and forth, and then extend the tube again without any lever. Somebody suggested a "rotating tool for K1" - sawed-off screwdriver with 0.5" tip remaining; I don't need it on Kahuna, but K1 has more parts to deal with....
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ChrisH
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:11 pm
I am sure the boat was put together with no lubricant at all and then left for over a year. I also have a K2 that we always lubricate well with Superlube and even when its been left for very prolonged periods it comes apart very easily.
I really wanted to point out that even in a very difficult case the tubes are pretty easy to repair if you or a friend has a drill press.
I found that if an extension tube has to be cut it is better to cut the large section. This section can then be separated from the other end by drilling out the rivets joining the two bits -you then only have to make up a new large sleeve which is pretty straight forward.
I know in future on a long trip I will take a short length of the larger tube and a few rivets.
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Alm
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:39 pm
ChrisH wrote:
I know in future on a long trip I will take a short length of the larger tube and a few rivets.
Then you'll need a "rivet tool". And removing the rivet (if it hasn't fallen out) is not easy - you will need some sort of a pocket drill. May be, it is easier to take a short length of a tube that is larger than large tube, and another short tube larger than smaller tube, and few meters of wide Velcro, some fiberglass cloth, and fast-curing Epoxy. Fallen out rivets can be replaced with a short stainless screw of the same diameter, and then fixed with Veclro or Fibegrlass/epoxy, to keep it in place. Fiberglass and epoxy are very useful items - you can fix almost anything with it, - not only fallen out rivets, but also broken tubes. Regular household-grade epoxy in small tubes (mix ratio 1:1) is good enough for this purpose - it cures in 8 or 12 hours, but becomes hard enough in 2-3 hours. This cheap epoxy is easier to work with, than expensive fast-curing epoxy from marine stores, which will ruing your work if you don't do it fast enough.
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nohoval_turrets
Post subject:
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:26 am
Good tips Chris. I'm generally pretty careful about lubing and rinsing, but I've had a couple of seizing incidents.
Here's a technique I've used very successfully, but it only works if you can get the seized part out of the boat, which of course isn't always possible.
I use a couple of the table-top type vice grips, like these:
Having soaked the joint in fresh water and WD-40 (not at the same time!), I clamp one either side of the joint. I tighten them just to hand-tightness, no forcing. This allows you to get enough torque to gently rock the joint open, but doesn't damage the aluminium's finish at all.
Nohoval
Just took my Klondike appart after fall use. I wander how long the shockcords that connect the longerons will last before they start breaking down. I suppose I will worry about it when it happens, but I wouldn't mind if you could share with me your practical experience, ot thoughts on this matter. I cannot figure out what happens inside of those longerons by just looking. Any ideas and thoughts?
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Alm
Post subject:
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:54 pm
Shock-cords don't hold the frame together - they are there just for convenience of assembly. Shock-cord is held inside by the 8-figure knot that is placed behind the rivet (which usually holds a tubing insert). To replace a shock-cord, remove the rivet, place the knot behind it, and rivet it back again. Rivet-tool for CDN 20 from Canadian Tire will do just fine. I don't think you will have to replace some shock-cord more than once in a season, even with frequent assembling and dissembling.
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mje
Post subject:
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:35 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1742
Location: Southeast Michigan
My K-1 is 8 years old and has had a lot of use- the previous owner really used and abused it. No shock cord failures yet. Not surprising as the cords aren't under any load and don't have any structural function.
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Alm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:40 am
PS: As the only time when I had to replace it, was more than 18 months ago, here is some minor correction to whereabouts of that 8-figure knot at the end of the cord. If I recall it right, the knot is placed not just behind the rivet, but through and behind the washer that covers the end of the small diameter tubing insert.
Some disclaimer is probably needed - the failure of my cord was caused solely by my lame actions when cutting about 3mm off the keelsen tube. I couldn't extend the keelsen of Kahuna up to the last hole in the cockpit area, and even at the 2nd hole it was still extremely tight. I stopped by the factory, and they confirmed - yes, the skin was a bit tighter than needed (they prefer to err on the smaller side when making skins), and I shouldn't have worried about extending the keelsen beyond the 1st hole. Side stringers were OK, but the keelsen I had to cut slightly, since wanted it to be at the 2nd hole - perhaps just my whim. That's how the cord was damaged.
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gregn
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:36 am
Alex, thanks for a very descriptive explanation of things in the longerons. I do not have problems with shock cords yet, but a new thing developed: I cannot assemble my Klondike! Have done it five times since I got the kayak new (early September) without any problems. Lately, I washed the frame and skin, dried everything inside in the house, rolled skin for a few days, and today attempted to assemble. Nada. I'm short about 3" to the first hole, and in the past it was smooth going to the second hole. It looks like the skin has shrunken about 4". Any ideas?
Tomorrow will talk to Feathercraft about it and keep you informed.
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Alm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:08 pm
gregn wrote:
I cannot assemble my Klondike! Have done it five times since I got the kayak new (early September) without any problems. Lately, I washed the frame and skin, dried everything inside in the house, rolled skin for a few days, and today attempted to assemble. Nada. I'm short about 3" to the first hole, and in the past it was smooth going to the second hole. It looks like the skin has shrunken about 4". Any ideas?
Tomorrow will talk to Feathercraft about it and keep you informed.
4" difference means you are doing something wrong. I had this problem with Kahuna more than once, and every time something was wrong. This skin is very dimensionally stabile. Probable cases:
Perimeter line or docking line on deck has been tightened too much, or is tangled, and holds the skin from expanding.
Something in the skin is blocking the way of tubes (tubes got caught in the pocket of sponson sleeve, or rudder cables have slack or loop under the stern deck, blocking the tubes).
Dirt in some tubes (unlikely).
Frame is inserted backwards (no offence, I've done this more than once).
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gregn
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:01 pm
Alex, thanks for another very informative reply. I went through everything very carefully. However, I gave it another try this morning and succeded to the first hole (normally I use second). So I'm still about 1" short to where I was before. I think that the skin did not shrink, but wrinkled while in storage for a few days. Now I was able to inflate the sponsoons and stretch the skin. Will leave on first hole untill next demob, or rearrangement of seats.
You made a very good point about deck lines. I also unhooked deck crosscords and opened inflation valves, as well as lubricated again extension tubes. Anyway, it was hard going!
Tomorrow we will be paddling around small islands in Sidney area. You should take a rain check and come for a visit and a little paddle one day. So many places to go around Victoria!
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Mike
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:02 pm
Heh, Heh, Heh....
I remember my first "Oh No!" assembly with my Klondike. I had done all the preventitive maint, and Boe-lubed everything, washed the skin, dried it and rolled it "factory tight". The next time I assembled the boat I had the same trouble you were having. Up under the deck, fore and aft, some of the tubing had slipped out and was jammed end to end instead of one in the other. It took a several double-checks to find the problem. I actually found the disjoints by feel, before I figured it out. Surprise! That Boe-sheild do make 'em slippery!
Mike
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Alm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:22 pm
Mike wrote:
Up under the deck, fore and aft, some of the tubing had slipped out and was jammed end to end instead of one in the other. It took a several double-checks to find the problem. I actually found the disjoints by feel, before I figured it out. Surprise! That Boe-sheild do make 'em slippery!
Mike
I had this too, and there are probably some more mistakes that one can make, unnamed yet
... If something doesn't go in, then something is wrong - usually with the frame. This skin is not a Klepper's or Longahul's cotton (which shrinks when wet, but I didn't notice this to be irreversible), and it's not a Folbot type (sorry) of laminated deck fabric either. Shrinkage doesn't happen, and wrinkles take a long time to develop. Take it apart, remove it from the skin, check everything (yes, and then extend all the tubes again). I was trying to force the frame of Kahuna in, once, when it was backwards, and another time - when it caught rudder cables under the stern deck, and then one more time, when adjustable rudder downhaul bungey cord (sailing DIY addition) was set on its shorter length. HAtch sleeves might catch the frame too (don't remember if this happened to me on FC - on Longhaul it happens almost at every dissembling).
I'm trying not to keep the skin in a tight roll when not in a bag - lay it loozely on the shelf or under the sofa.
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gregn
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:17 am
Mike, good observation with the lubricant. I was thinking about using soap, cleaned with the bottle brush and lubricated extension tubes well, then opened inflation valves. Whatever it was, did the trick.
I hope that the skin will stretch somehow with time, but as I said, the first five times were easy, just click, click, click.
Mike, your description of Klondike is right on. It is not a Porshe, but it gives me a very secure feeling in rough seas. With my 6'5" and getting old stability and safety is very important. I'm doing ok with a group of experienced paddlers in hard shells by myself, and in double configuration with my wife we are quite relaxed with the same group.
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aklinz
Post subject: Shockcords
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:14 am
Hey Gregn.
The shockcords in your boat should last years!. My K1 was abused by it's original owner, and the 8 year old cords began to get a little bit loose. When I commented on this to Scott Gater at Feathercraft, he told me to send the tubes to them. They restrung new shockcords for free! Awesome service from these guys. But you shouldn't need this service for years to come.
Andrew Klinzmann
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gregn
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:59 pm
Andrew, thanks for reply. I, too, have a positive feeling about the company and their products. Hope that I will not need to restring the cords in the near future.
Cape Cod is the bared and bended arm of Massachusetts: the shoulder is at Buzzard's Bay; the elbow, or crazy-bone, at Cape Mallebarre; the wrist at Truro; and the sandy fist at Provincetown,—behind which the State stands on her guard, with her back to the Green Mountains, and her feet planted on the floor of the ocean, like an athlete protecting her Bay,—boxing with northeast storms, and, ever and anon, heaving up her Atlantic adversary from the lap of earth,—ready to thrust forward her other fist, which keeps guard the while upon her breast at Cape Ann.
Hi all.
This is my first time taking folding kayaks on vacation. We will be flying within the US and will be checking our kayaks as baggage. Ours are both Pakboats, a Puffin Swift and a an XT-15. I am prepared to cope with size and weight restrictions and the costs of violating them. My real concern is that the aluminum frame components are rugged enough to be "baggage handled". Should I trust the factory suppled duffle (or similar) to keep the contents safe? Or should I assume that I MUST put these bits in a hard-ish sided case? Does anyone have horror stories to share? Or have y'all done this lots and lots with no issues?
Your thoughts, please?
Cheers,
jomo
John Morrison
Auburn, ME USA
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:06 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 822
Location: atlanta, georgia
John,
Can't speak to Pakboats specifically, but I have travelled a dozen times or so with Feathercraft Kahuna and Klepper A1. Never a problem, although I always take precautions. I wrap both ends of the long pieces/tubes with a towel and wrap that in Gorilla tape. I cinch everything together with extra web belts on the outside of the bag to keep everything from moving inside the bag. And I expect that the travel bag will arrive badly scuffed and sometimes frayed, and I get what I expect! But I have never had any damage to the boats. Hope your travels are safe!
g
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mje
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:09 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1748
Location: Southeast Michigan
We’ve had some horror stories in the past about TSA unpacking frames and destroying them in the repacking. It’s a good idea to firmly bundle your frame pieces together in case TSA wants to take them out of the bag.
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FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster
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kayakspearo
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:16 pm
forum fan
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:17 am
Posts: 18
I have done it a lot without problem. Some advices :
- Keep your bags under the 50 lbs limit and pay for an extra bag if you have to instead of an overweight bag. The heavier your bags, the more risky it is for the frame.
- If you have small plastic frame parts like hatch opening, take them in your carry-on luggage.
- Keep in mind that your bags will probably get opened and repacked by TSA. Make it easy for them to repack.
- If asked, don't say the word KAYAK. It can cost you lots of $$$. I know firsthand. Surfski is a much better term if you really have to tell what's Inside the bags. Most attendants don't know what a surfski is.
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mrjomo
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:26 pm
paddler
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:58 pm
Posts: 7
Thank you, folks, for your input. Your experiences and suggestions are about as I imagined, feared and hoped. All in all, not a cakewalk but not bad.
Off like a herd of turtles...
JoMo
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Alv
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:42 pm
forum fanatic
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:10 pm
Posts: 73
I often fly with Pakboats, both canoes and kayaks - mostly on international flights to (and in) Germany and Norway. My flights have never had damage to the boats, but we have had damage to the bag. If you travel with a Swift and an XT, you may want to get a larger bag for the Swift and move enough XT parts into the Swift bag to bring the weight up to 50 pounds. That may save you some money, and the XT will become less vulnerable to damage from rough handling.
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scotjack
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:05 pm
forum fanatic
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 pm
Posts: 39
During the past year, on two separate flights, I have taken two Folbots from the US to Montenegro - a Greenland II and an Aluet - on Turkish Airlines, and they did not charge me a dime! They are very generous in their attitude to sports equipment. Both times it was in addition to my two 50 lb bags. (Most airlines only allow one 50 lb bag these days.) To protect the aluminium tubes, I wrapped and strapped them in two cheap ($6) foam sleeping mats from Walmart. The mats will be useful as beach mats.
On both flights, everything arrived safely.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:43 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 532
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
How did your traveling with the XT and Puffin turn out?
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mrjomo
Post subject: Re: Concern about folders as Checked Baggage?
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:49 pm
paddler
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:58 pm
Posts: 7
Specifically to KOK but to all,
We are just now on our maiden voyage with the 2 Pakboats craft. The trip down to Florida was uneventful, both for us and for our luggage. I thank everyone for their input. We found a large LLBean rolling duffle that meets airline criteria and then a HUGE Cabella's rolling suitcase that barely makes it. I was able to put the side trusses of the XT in the bottom of the suitcase stuffed with skivvies, socks,etc. I filled the top half of the suitcase with my regular luggage. The rest of the XT, along with kit, fit comfortably into the Bean duffle. Each of my pieces weighed about 40 ish pounds. My wife put the smaller boat entirely in the Bean duffle and used the big Cabella's case for her stuff. We flew Southwest, who allows two checked bags each. Yum.
I had no adventures with TSA folks, that I know of. I packed a copy of the assembly instructions with each parcel so that the folks could figure out what they were dealing with. So far so good. I hope it's as painless going home again. In the meantime, I have found it wonderful to be able to paddle without thoughts of rentals, guides, Piecesd o' Crap, car topping and all the rest.
Hot Dog! Life IS Good!
Thanks again, everyone.
John Morrison
mrjomo
I just got back from taking my smallest folder and all the kit for it as checked airline baggage on a trip from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, to Yorkshire, England (landing at Manchester). Partly to keep a record myself for further reference on packing for such trips, I made a Flickr album showing how and what I managed to pack to get in under the airline dimension and weight allowances for a free checked bag.
As it turned out, Icelandair, the carrier I used, would have actually allowed me TWO such bags for free on a transatlantic flight but I did not know that when I prepped for the trip. Good to know for when I take one of my larger kayaks (28 pound Quest or 37 pound Wisper) overseas, since I would not be able to pack all of the necessary gear in a single bag with those.
By the way -- props to Icelandair, a very good experience flying with them, including the chance to see Greenland and Iceland from the air (and they offer free 1 to 7 day layovers in Iceland if you want for not additional charge.) Roundtrip air that i purchased 3 months in advance was only $670. Definitely a better way to get to Europe than the long direct flights to the continent from the US east coast. It does add a couple of hours for the layover in Reykjavik but I would rather take multiple flights and be able to move around in an airport between than be trapped in a seat for 7 to 10 hours. Next time I go I will plan to do the Iceland multi-day layover. Since I was solo this trip I opted not to this time. Solo hiking in Iceland did not seem too wise.
If anyone is interested in viewing the album (with details on how and what I packed): http://www.flickr.com/photos/snapdoodle ... 004743334/
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DoiNomazi
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 2:08 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
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Icelandair rocks, indeed! It is one of the best companies we flew with. Their cargo operation is just as good. We sent the U-Boat from NYC to Greenland via cargo and we had a good experience both ways.
They work very well with their sister company "Air Iceland" and their first cousin "Norlandair". Excellent companies all three of them. Anybody willling to take the yak and gear to Greenland, or up north, I strongly recommend these companies and also the impeccable chopper rides offered by Air Greenland. They managed to fit and transport our monster cases in their choppers...
Kudos to all of them for their professionalism!
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idc
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:43 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 453
I for one am impressed. Did you manage to meet up with any of the paddling folk over in the UK while you were there? Where did you paddle? (I was abroad at the time, I'm sorry to say.) I like the idea of visiting my family in North American and stopping off for a layover in Iceland. Bringing a folding kayak would be fun.
All the best,
Ian
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:27 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 532
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Yes, idc, I did indeed connect with the great folks of the Malton & Norton Canoe Club. They had reached out to me when I posted an intro on the "Song of the Paddle" forum less than 2 weeks before I left for the UK. I had given them the address of my rental cottage and ETA and less than an hour after I had settled into the place, club member Paul Lister (who had contacted me through the forum) and his wife Linsey knocked on my door and welcomed me!
Since they were all working that week, we planned to paddle on the following weekend. On Saturday we put in on the River Rye, less than a mile from my cottage, and paddled to the junction with the River Derwent and as far as the club boathouse, which is right on the river beside the bridge between the adjacent towns of Malton and Norton. On Sunday we started early from the boathouse and continued downstream, with kayaks and canoes, on the Derwent to Howsham Mill, a cleverly restored stone medieval grain mill that has been converted to a mini hydro power plant with a paddle driven generator and two Archimedes Screws -- Paul is one of the Mill project trustees. Part of the Mill restoration included creating a whitewater slalom park in the millrace outlet -- the British are very good at building diverse recreational options and public parks into their infrastructure and historical sites.
As it turned out, the canoe club has so much group gear that I actually could have just borrowed a kayak from them (instead of lugging my folder with me) or joined them in one of the tandem canoes, which I actually did for half of the second day, leaving my folder at the halfway point at Paul and Linsey's house which is right on the river where we stopped for lunch and picking it up later on the way back with the shuttle. There was a downriver kayak race going on that day upriver from where we were -- it really is a very active club!
The paddling was great, all flatwater except for a tiny rapid at the Rye launch and two weirs (low head dams), which like many in Europe, were constructed as low angle ramps so that they can be safely descended by kayaks and canoes without the deadly hydraulics that are created in standard straight drop dams (like the one that killed two young kayakers 10 days ago here in Pittsburgh.) We had terrific weather and the water was warm -- very picturesque scenery: cows and sheep, quaint towns and cottage farms, the ruins of ancient abbeys, swans and wild flowers -- there were quite a few snags since earlier rains had caused a lot of willows to collapse across the narrow rivers, but we were able to push over all of them. The outings were a high point in the trip for me and I really enjoyed the company -- invited any of them to look me up if they ever come to the states. In fact, Paul's dad (with whom I paddled a tandem canoe) was just visiting Yorkshire at the time and lives in Florida most of the year.
I've been sorting through hundreds of photos I took during the trip and once I get some albums posted to Flickr I will post a link (files are too big to post on here.)
I definitely want to go back to Great Britain and paddle some more --next time will hopefully be with a companion and one of my folding sea kayaks to do some more ambitious waters. And I will take the Iceland layover option next time if they still offer it. I didn't this time because I was solo and did not think camping, hiking and paddling in Iceland's rugged terrain alone would be a great idea.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:39 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 532
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Oh, forgot to mention that I got to see Greenland during the overnight flight from Boston to Reykjavik -- I had nodded off but awoke in time to watch the rugged black mountains pushed up through the vast swaths of glaciers glowing below in the moonlight -- it was magical! I had hoped to see the Greenland coast again in daylight during my return flight but got stuck in a middle seat section in a jumbo jet and could not see anything -- and the people seated on the north side windows kept them closed so they could watch TV!!! Go figure....
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DoiNomazi
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:27 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
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You should pack and go there, mate. You won't regret it.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:50 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Both Greenland and an extended trip to Iceland are on my "bucket list".
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Jabezkin
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:31 pm
paddler
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:25 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Quaker Valley PA
Didn't know that kayak was so pack able.
Great info and tips.
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treewater
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:11 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:31 pm
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Great work. I just took a Folbot Citibot to Morocco. You did better than I. But I managed to pack in a two person tent and air-mattress along with camp gear.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:08 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Having the separate decks and the older models have ingenious folding coamings, make Pakboats very easy to pack compared to other folders. I love my Feathercraft Wisper but it's a pain in the butt to pack compactly.
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scotjack
Post subject: Re: Packing a folder for airline travel
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:17 pm
forum fanatic
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 pm
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Kudos to Turkish Airlines!
On my most recent trip to our other home in Kotor, Montenegro, they transported my Folbot Greenlander, packed into its two original bags, free! Perhaps because the bags were non-standard size and weight compared to regular luggage, they were the first to come off at Podgorica. Completely undamaged, and both bearing stickers from the TSA stating that they had been examined by them, which explained why none of my original cable ties were present.
Always willing to have paddlers stop over with us, so contact me if you are planning a trip to the Balkans.
Pardon my braggadocio, but I'm very proud of my personal best just achieved (after 3 unpack-repack attempts) to fit EVERYTHING I will need for kayaking on my upcoming trip to the UK (via Iceland) into a bag that meets all the most recent restrictive airline parameters for the "free bag". This will be the first overseas flight for this boat.
Believe it or not, this stuffed 30" x 18" x 14" rolling duffel, weighing 48 pounds, contains all of the following:
- 12' Pakboat Puffin folding kayak
- 4-piece Cannon carbon kayak paddle
- inflatable roof rack and straps (for rental car -- I reserved a Citroen C4 Cactus station wagon)
- PFD
- full spray skirt
- knee high Kokatat paddling boots
- Speedo swimsuit and rashguard shirt
- Goretex paddling pants and jacket
- Hydroskin jacket
- kayaking gloves and hat
- 2 inflatable flotation bags for the kayak
- hand pump to inflate kayak tubes and roof rack
- two dry bags
- cable lock (to secure kayak to car)
I didn't think to lay out all the stuff and photograph it before the final packing, but I might do that when I get to Yorkshire (providing the bag survives the journey).
The duffel itself was a great find at $34.99 at a Ross Dress for Less store, which always have great deals on brand name large rolling duffels for some reason -- this is a Lucas and is very well constructed. The single full length side pocket is foam padded and handily fits a 4-piece paddle and the rolled up spray skirt and float bags for more cushioning.
Now, fingers crossed to see what the troglodyte baggage handlers can do to it on the 3 legs of my journey.
Attachments:
packed_kayak copy.jpg [ 91.82 KiB | Viewed 65 times ]
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siravingmon
Post subject: Re: Showing off my packing success
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:41 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
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Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
What a great job, and good choice of kayak for this
I'm curious about the inflatable roof rack, not so much why you'd need one as what make is it etc
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Showing off my packing success
Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:02 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
I got a Malone HR20 rack like this:
http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p/mal ... nfltblrpsr
Though I got it for under $45 on line somewhere. It worked quite nicely and was very compact to travel with. I rented a Citroen Cactus wagon, which has a long low flat roof with lateral factory bars. The inflatable crossbars strapped through the inside of the car across the ceiling and run under the lateral bars. They cushioned the boat and protected it from scuffing the rental car. I strapped the boat to the factory bars on the car but also strapped it to the d-rings attached to the inflatable rack tubes and did bow and stern lines to the bumpers.
If you had a car without the factory bars, you could also run long lash straps for the boat through the roof or rely on secure bow and stern attachments to the car as backup to the strapping to the inflatable rack. I would not use the rack alone for any heavy boat but it was ideal for a folder. It was very nicely made and looks like it should hold up well. I can see it being useful for any car owner who doesn't have a permanent rack on their car -- it fits in its own little stuff sack and can fit in a glove box or under the seat. Takes just minutes to inflate and strap on. Cool product.
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siravingmon
Post subject: Re: Showing off my packing success
Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:01 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
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Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Thanks fior that. What a brilliant idea and one that might come in handy for my trip back to NZ this August - I'm taking a folder back with me for the first time and assembling it in a nice warm garage rather than heavy rain sounds like much more fun
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Showing off my packing success
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:13 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Here's a follow-up album of photos showing everything I packed in that bag with the folding kayak that I took from the US to the UK, plus some shots of paddling there and how I used the inflatable Malone roof rack on the rental car. I have to say that IcelandAir took good care of the checked bag and everything came back intact:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/snapdoodl ... 1327686552
I've flown in the past with my Feathercrafts in their backpack bags and a separate duffel with PFD and clothing. I'm taking a trip next month to Lake Tahoe with a friend my two smaller folders (Pakboat Puffin Sport and Quest 135). With the increases in charges for extra baggage since my last such trips I'm trying to pack everything we'll need in one bag each.
I was able to get the Puffin, a 4 piece paddle, some dry wear, sprayskirt and flotation bags into a friends large rolling duffel, but there was not enough room for a PFD which we will have to cram in our carry-ons. Last night I picked up the largest rolling bag I could find (fortunately on the clearance rack at TJ Maxx) that made it under the 62" combined dimension restriction for standard bag. It seems to be just slightly larger than the bag the Quest came in so I'm hoping I can squeeze everything one paddler needs in that one. I also have a collapsible Samsonite dolly that I could use alternatively with the big Feathercraft backpack bag (since the Wisper is not coming with us). But then I have to worry about stashing the dolly in the bag as well before checking it.
This project made me wonder how other folder owners handle flying with their packed boats. Any useful tips and cautions for packing and dealing with airport baggage handling?
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siravingmon
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:51 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
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Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
I'm afraid I use really big bags for flying my kayaks around so can't be much help there. However, after my brand new extra large dry bag got cut badly by the ends of my Fujita's frame tubes on the flight from Italy to Sri Lanka, I would really recommend wrapping something around the tips of any frame tubes that don't have plastic button tips
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:06 am
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Fly Southwest, Alaska Air or Air Mobility Command
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:00 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Already got cheap tickets to Reno on American. So I guess I should not whine about having to pay extra baggage charges. Appreciate the tip on padding sharp frame parts. I'll stick the dry bags in outside pockets or in my carry-on to be on the safe side.
It looks like the biggest rolling bag under the 62" unified measurement (18" x 12" x 32"
may fit even the Wisper and most of the gear once judiciously folded and layered (the standard FC backpack is 18" x 10" x 37" but since I don't have the old-style solid coaming I can go shorter.) I snagged a Samsonite collapsible luggage dolly with a 70# rating from a TJ Maxx clearance table (for $16) that I could use with the FC pack too and hope the airline doesn't get pissy about the extra 3".
Though with the water temp at Tahoe reported at 43 today, I've been wondering if it's just plain folly to take the kayaks anyway this early in the season. The dry gear is proving to be as bulky as the boats to pack. Maybe we should just stick to hiking and photography this trip. Would certainly simplify packing.
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flatwater
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:11 am
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:36 pm
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Location: west burbs of Chicago
Don't be afraid to admit that the hassle of gearing up for cold weather paddling via airplane is perhaps more than it's worth.
I've paddled in that kind of weather and found it really fun
But
I went to the water via car so hauling all the extra cold weather gear was no big deal. The hassle factor was essentially nil.
The bulk of the dry gear could make the airplane thing a real pain in the neck.
Go for what's most fun with least hassle.
Bring back some great hiking pictures for us to enjoy.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:43 am
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
By mid May, people are usually swimming in Tahoe. If you really feel the need for a drysuit, you can rent from Tahoe Eco Sports/EnviroRents in Kings Beach
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:04 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Good idea, Chuck. I'll give them a call. I really would like to have the option to kayak, especially around Emerald Bay, and the kayak concessions don't open until Memorial Day apparently (and I don't care for the usual sit on top liveries anyway.) But packing my own dry suit is proving to be a hassle and I only have semi dry wear to loan my friend -- I have 3/4 mm wetsuits we could both wear but they are even bulkier to pack. Perhaps the drysuits seem like overkill to you, but with just the two of us, and her a relative newbie to paddling, I'm concerned an assisted rescue if one was needed would be time-consuming and therefore result in extended immersion. We would likely stay along the shore and not attempt any wide crossings. But cold is cold, even 20 feet from shore.
Since you've lived at Tahoe, I do trust your experience. Hard to believe many people swim in 40 to 50 degree water -- are the surface temps a lot higher then? And is the southern part of the lake warmer than the northern in general? We're staying right on the beach in Tahoe City.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:06 pm
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
KerryOnKayaks wrote:
Good idea, Chuck. I'll give them a call. I really would like to have the option to kayak, especially around Emerald Bay, and the kayak concessions don't open until Memorial Day apparently (and I don't care for the usual sit on top liveries anyway.) But packing my own dry suit is proving to be a hassle and I only have semi dry wear to loan my friend -- I have 3/4 mm wetsuits we could both wear but they are even bulkier to pack. Perhaps the drysuits seem like overkill to you, but with just the two of us, and her a relative newbie to paddling, I'm concerned an assisted rescue if one was needed would be time-consuming and therefore result in extended immersion. We would likely stay along the shore and not attempt any wide crossings. But cold is cold, even 20 feet from shore.
Since you've lived at Tahoe, I do trust your experience. Hard to believe many people swim in 40 to 50 degree water -- are the surface temps a lot higher then? And is the southern part of the lake warmer than the northern in general? We're staying right on the beach in Tahoe City.
Tahoe City is on the NW shore. Water temp is already about 50. You can always wear your drysuits through airport security and stow them in the overhead bins.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:41 pm
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If you bring 2 bags each and split the load, you should be fine. Just pay the extra bag fee. It would be cheaper than renting gear. Or mail your gear ahead
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:01 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
After fiddling around some more today, it appears I can get everything into 1 medium and 2 large bags that would have to be checked. That's $85 each way. Since single day kayak rental is $75 and a drysuit is $45 per diem (not to mention the time hassle of picking up and returning them) cost-wise the baggage fees are a no-brainer.
Guess I would rather have the boats and not end up using them than get there and regret leaving them home.
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DoiNomazi
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:29 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
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Your post/question touched a sensitive "nerve"...
It depends where you're going, for how long and what you plan to enjoy doing there. Two years ago we took a Long Haul and all the food and camping gear needed for an independent paddling trip on the east coast of Greenland. Winter clothing and tons of gear that had to be divided into heavy duty hard shell containers and shipped a month before the trip... Not sure you may like our solution.
Many times, bags seem to invite problems, from theft of small items stored inside, to damage caused by mishandling.
Folders seem OK on most airlines when one has no need to carry additional expedition gear for cold/remote conditions.
As much as we love and worship our U-Boat (Long Haul yak), this summer we'll leave the beloved folder at home and try to find/rent most of the gear locally at destination just because we want to avoid the logistics needed to ship it to a remote destination.
We decided to use the folder only for driving destinations.
Sorry, I just realized that my info didn't help you.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 3:37 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Actually, I do appreciate your insights. I have read that people who take their folders on serious expeditions will tend to ship them ahead in hardshell locking cases. That is probably what I would do in a similar situation. In fact I often take the shipping option on vacation outings. I had a lot of camping gear to use for an archaeology field dig out West that I volunteered for some years ago and I arranged to have a large duffel of the heavier and bulkier items boxed and shipped ahead via insured UPS to the small motel I was going to be staying at the first night in town. -- they kindly allowed me to do so and securely stashed the package in their utility room until I arrived And when I buy or collect a lot of stuff on vacation (especially books, fossils and geology samples) I will mail them from my destination before packing to head home.
This trip I will be experimenting with packing the kayaks in large rolling suitcases instead of the manufacturer supplied bags or backpacks. I think the frames of the bags will offer more protection and the zippers can be locked against baggage handler pilferage. Since we will only be day touring I don't have to pack all the camping gear.
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DLee
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 8:56 pm
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
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Location: South Salem, NY
check this out:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/287803-REG/SKB_1SKB_H5020W_XL_ATA_Stand_Case.html
or
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842384-REG/SKB_2SKB_R4916W_ROTO_MOLD_MEDIUM_STAND_TRANSPORT.html
Two of those and you could darn near take two boats splitting up the parts properly. How long are your longest rods?
d
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DoiNomazi
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 10:30 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
DLee wrote:
check this out:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/287803-REG/SKB_1SKB_H5020W_XL_ATA_Stand_Case.html
or
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842384-REG/SKB_2SKB_R4916W_ROTO_MOLD_MEDIUM_STAND_TRANSPORT.html
Two of those and you could darn near take two boats splitting up the parts properly. How long are your longest rods?
d
I have two SKB, one for the skin, ribs, seats, rudder, leeboard, amas, all the camping equipment, PFDs, dry bags, kitchen, water dromaderies, and just about everything else. The second case is long and slender for gunwales, paddles, mast segments and akas.
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DLee
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 11:11 pm
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
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Location: South Salem, NY
I was wondering if the cases were long enough for the frame parts... good to know. So are you generally happy with their performance and durability?
Extremely happy. On the trip to Greenland, they took four cargo flights, different fork lifts, one helicopter ride, two boat rides, a rough truck ride from which they were, unfortunately, thrown to the ground by a lazy driver and they kept all the gear protected. They are scratched, a latch is slightly bent, the locks (not part of the cases) didn't make it through the full back and forth trip...
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 7:01 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Tahoe trip update: In the end, we elected to NOT take the folders and gear to Tahoe. My co-traveler on the trip is a novice and not a strong enough paddler for the kind of outings I like so it seemed like too much baggage and hassle for this particular trip. We rented for a half day instead.
As it turned out, my concerns about cold water were for naught. It was very sunny and mild while we were there and the shallower water along the north shore was so warm I was completely comfortable wading out up to my waist in water shoes and nylon pants. We had a nice half day paddle outing from EcoRents to Crystal Bay and back in a tandem sit on top (or rather, I paddled, she took photos).
I loved Tahoe and definitely plan to go back, next time with a boat and gear. It was a good scouting trip and we did a lot of hiking and covered the surrounding area with road trips from Virginia City to Kit Carson Pass to Truckee to Squaw Valley.
By the way, TChuck, Harry King of Erents says "hi". Your name came up when we were talking about folders and he forwarded me your "seal love" shot.
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RangerTim
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 11:03 am
faltbootemeister
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:10 pm
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Excellent topic. A couple of times I have flown to and from Alaska to work at a National Park. I shipped ahead a large box but took the maximum allowable on board the aircraft. I wore cargo pants and a large parka with pockets stuffed full of dense items. I never had a problem with the airline. I wonder if a pfd could be worn onto an aircraft, then stuffed into the overhead or placed in one's lap?
A couple of years ago Ann and I flew from Anchorage to King Salmon and return with a Folbot Aleut and a Balogh sail rig. Alaska Air did not consider the bags oversize. I padded the bags with clothing and added items until each bag weighed 50#. I witnessed an airline agent in King Salmon heave the bags a few feet to clear an existing luggage pile. All equipment survived undamaged.
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mje
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 6:42 pm
Site Admin
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Strap all the frame parts together tightly so that they come out of the bag in one assembly. Otherwise you run the risk of having TSA inspectors destroy your frame, as happened to a Forum member several years ago. Not only did the TSA destroy enough of his frame that his trip was ruined, they claimed immunity from having to pay for the damage they did, and if I recall correctly, the baggage insurance company refused as well.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:37 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Good information, Michael.
I learned the hard lesson long ago that Federal security and customs agencies have NO obligation to compensate citizens for destruction of property, even if no contraband is discovered. 40 years ago I took a vacation trip to Ontario from the US with two friends, a couple who had just bought a very pristine vintage Jaguar touring sedan two weeks earlier, which we took on the trip. While the wife and I went to museums and hiked, the husband was driving around to car dealers buying parts for the Jag and for other British cars in his collection. When we were crossing the border back into the US, we were waved aside for further inspection (likely because the male member of our party had a long pony tail and beard). They ordered us out of the car, searched our handbags and began to dismantle the car. Within minutes we were informed that we were going to be detained because a cannabis seed had been found in the track under one of the car seats AND several pills ("p i l l s" is what I typed-- don't know why the site text autocorrect transposes this word to "poodles"
which one of us was carrying had tested positive as amphetamine (never mind that they were prescription allergy medication in a bottle with the RX label on it.) We were then strip searched and made to sit on chairs 8 feet away from each other behind the customs counter for almost 3 hours while they continued to dismantle the interior of the Jaguar outside on the tarmac. We were terrified and people were staring at us as if we were the minions of the French Connection.
Fortunately, a senior customs office (who had been away at a meeting while his overzealous young agents were on this witch hunt) returned and challenged his officers as to why we were being detained. I overheard him reading them the riot act for not using a new testing kit they had which would have verified that our pills (there are the danged "poodles" again) were indeed the medications their label implied and he also reminded them that a single cannabis seed in the remote reaches of a vehicle was not grounds for a costly contraband search. He apologized to us and released my companions' vehicle, but explained that there was nothing they could do about the damage that was caused to it by the search and cautioned us that there was no legal recourse for any of it. The damage included interior panels pulled off in such a way that fasteners were broken or stripped off, burl veneers that were cracked and split and leather upholstery and carpet that had been sliced. They had also opened all the boxes of car parts and just dumped them willy-nilly in the boot.
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Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
Last edited by KerryOnKayaks on Sat May 21, 2016 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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chrstjrn
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 7:28 pm
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
That is an infuriating story, to put it mildly. If you want to amplify your anger, google the term "asset forfeiture" (something that CBP and USBP use constantly). And with that, I am far too close to getting political in this forum, and will now back away from the subject.
_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:11 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 532
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Bizarre glitch on this forum with text "autocorrect". In my story above I was describing prescription tablets -- p-i-l-l-s -- which the customs police mistook for illegal drugs. But for some reason the site text editor converts the word "p i l l s" to "poodles"!!! When I open the text for editing it reads correctly as "p i l l s" in each instance but as soon as I close the post the word pops up as "poodles" again. Never had that happen.
And no, we were NOT smuggling contraband yappy little dogs.
_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
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siravingmon
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:54 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 616
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
It did seem odd. Poodles are hypereactive enough as it is without pumping them full of amphetamines!!
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Simon
Pakboats Quest 135, Nautiraid Narak 460, 416 & K1 (sold my 550), First light 420, Feathercraft Wisper, Fujita Alpina AL-1 400, Incept k40 (for sale)
Non-folders: Cape Falcon F1. Beth sailing canoe, 2014 Hobie Adventure Island
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mje
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:34 am
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1748
Location: Southeast Michigan
Ah... there's a translate table set up to remove offensive language and certain spam content, and I'm afraid it may be a little overzealous. I may remove that particular translation. But then again, I might not. Too much entertainment value
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Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 12:52 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 532
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Aah, makes sense now. The filter is set up to convert spam to posts for "erectile disfunction poodles"? The mind boggles at that prospect......
_________________
Current:
Feathercraft Wisper
Pakboat Quest 135
Pakboat Puffin 12
Pakboat Swift 14
Greenland SOF
P & H Easky 15LV
Previous:
Feathercraft Kahuna
Feathercraft K-1 Expedition
Pakboat XT-15
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mje
Post subject: Re: Any tips on packing folders for airline travel?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 7:02 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1748
Location: Southeast Michigan
Bingo. I've removed that filter so you can say "pills" now but there are quite a few that have yet to be triggered.
_________________
Mark II Quattro Kayak by Long Haul Kayaks
We purchased a folding kayak in the Summer of 2012, after two years of thinking about it and several months of research. Our choice of boat was based upon four criteria. First, it had to be a two-person boat. Next, it had to be expedition-capable, meaning it had to have a large load capacity, be of solid construction, and lend itself to repairs in the field. Third, the boat had to be light enough, and pack away small enough, that it could be transported as baggage on commercial aircraft. Finally, the boat had to be capable of accepting a sailing rig that could also be shipped as baggage.
The choice of boats came down to three: the Aerius Quattro II by Klepper, the K2 Expedition by Feathercraft, and the Mark II Quattro by Long Haul Kayaks. This last one is a close relative of the Klepper — Long Haul’s owner sold and repaired Kleppers before starting his own company, and that experience is reflected in his boats. All three kayaks appeared to be quality products that met our criteria, so the final decision was made on cost. Here, the Long Haul kayak was the clear winner, with a price tag of about USD $4,800. This was USD $500 less than the Klepper, and USD $2,500 less than the Feathercraft.
Construction and delivery of the boat took eight weeks, and everything arrived in good order. Long Haul had thrown in some additional items at no cost, including extra sponsons and upgraded seats. We watched the video on assembly and disassembly, practiced the procedure in our house, and found the boat fairly easy to construct.
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In late August of 2012, we took the kayak on its maiden voyage in the Bahamas’ Exuma Cays. The kayak spent eighteen days on the water, during which we paddled from Great Exuma to Compass Cay and back, camping on beaches along the way. Our route kept us on the southwestern, lee side of the island chain. The straight-line, round-trip distance was about one hundred nautical miles; although the paddling distance was likely twice that, as we followed irregular shorelines in order to reduce our exposure to wind and waves. Our longest days of paddling were twenty nautical miles of straight-line distance. Fully loaded with water, food, and us, the boat weighed in at 570 pounds — 330 pounds less than its specified maximum capacity.
We were affected by two storms during the trip. We weathered Hurricane Isaac by holing-up on a remote cay for three days, and we dealt with less-than-ideal weather and water conditions during the days before and after that storm’s passage. On the final day of the trip, we dealt with significantly heightened wave activity, produced by Hurricane Leslie as she passed east of the Bahamas.
During most of the trip, we experienced two to three foot swells, topped by sometimes-breaking wind waves. Wind speeds were typically in the mid-teens (except during Hurricane Isaac, when we experienced sustained winds in the sixties and seventies). Wind directions were southeasterly to easterly; and the seas were following during our outbound leg, which had us heading northwest and up the island chain.
There are many channels, or cuts, between the islands; and transiting them was often a significant physical challenge. The cuts exposed us to larger waves and the full force of the wind, and tidal changes sometimes turned channels into fast-moving rivers. Hard paddling was required to clear these things, with the rear paddler calling a cadence to keep everyone in synch.
We managed to avoid all but one surf landing during the trip. That one exception came on the last landing of the last day, and it involved three-foot breaking waves. The landing was not gracefully done, and it produced a moment of minor mayhem. Only our pride was damaged, and we were thankful for a beach free of spectators.
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Finding the right stowage configuration was a real challenge during our preparations for the trip, and this was largely a function of finding the right dry bags. Two of the dry bags we used were tapered Seal Line Kodiak Sacs. We used the 35L long bag in the bow, forward of the first rib; and we used the 35L wide bag in the stern, aft of the seventh rib. They were a decent fit, and they kept their contents dry.
Another bag we used was the NRS Outfitter Dry Bag in 62L size. We placed it in the stern, under the deck, between the sixth and seventh ribs. It is a well-constructed bag, but it is a little too big in diameter for this application. It could not be packed and then slid into place. Instead, the empty bag had to be inserted into the boat, and then the contents inserted into the bag. It worked, but is was a pain in the ass. We have since purchased a replacement bag, the NRS Expedition DriDuffel in size “small.” In a test packing, it slid easily into place.
Protecting Jen’s camera equipment was a real concern, and she opted to leave her best-quality equipment at home during this maiden voyage. Instead, she brought a waterproof point-and-shoot and an old DSLR camera. The DSLR was stored in a small dry bag, which was then packed into the NRS Outfitter Dry Bag. The camera stayed safe from the elements, but it was packed away in a manner that made it inaccessible while paddling. We have since acquired what we think is a better solution, one that will allow her to bring her best cameras. That solution is a Watershed Chattooga Dry Duffel with liner. It fits well under the forward deck, between the first and second ribs, in a location from which Jen can access her cameras while paddling.
We quickly discovered that we needed an easily-accessible bag to carry our lunch, along with the stove, gas bottle, pots, and utensils needed to cook and eat it. During the trip, we improvised a solution with a spare dry bag, but what we really needed was a decent deck bag. We have since purchased a NRS Taj M’Haul Deck Bag. We have yet to give it a field trial, but in a practice load-out it seemed to attach well to the boat’s forward deck.
On the aft deck, we used a large, shapeless, mesh laundry bag to hold our snorkel gear and wet clothes. The bag was secured under the deck’s bungee cords. It worked, but not well. We have since purchased a mesh duffel bag for this purpose, with a size and shape that fits the deck and the intended contents.
Another storage problem was drinking water, as there are few freshwater sources in the Exuma Cays. We used MSR 10-liter Dromedary Bags, and they are a good size for placing in the bottom of the boat. We carried five bags on the trip: one between the first and second ribs; two under Jen’s legs, between the second and third ribs; and two under my legs, between the fourth and fifth ribs. This configuration gave us a six-day storage capacity.
We used Camano paddles, manufactured by Werner. They are two-piece paddles with fiberglass blades and straight, carbon shafts. We appreciated their light weight, and they performed well under all conditions. For transport, we packed the paddles into the bag that contained the boat’s long frame components. This worked, but it also added to the challenge of keeping the bag’s weight under fifty pounds. Three-piece paddles may be in our future, as they could be packed in a shorter, lighter bag.
We acquired inexpensive paddle leashes manufactured by Harmony, which attach to the boat by plastic clips. They did the job, although they were never tested severely. We think more robust leashes are also in our future.
We used fingerless paddling gloves by Warmers and NRS. Both worked as advertised.
For personal flotation devices (PFD’s), we acquired a men’s Trekker and a women’s Flo, both manufactured by Stohlquist. The backs of these PFD’s are half mesh, half flotation; with the flotation material high enough to ride above the back of the kayak’s seats. They were a comfortable fit all the way around, and we had no problems with their construction during the trip.
We carried a Paddlers Bilge Pump, manufactured by Seattle Sports. It was never put to a real test, as we were never capsized or swamped. But we did have occasion to use it for removing accumulated rainwater, and it seemed to work well for the size and type of pump that it is. As to potential problems, there is a metal pin that joins the handle to the piston, and it is rusting rather nicely. The two other visible metal fittings show no rust at all, so the pin in question must be a poor metal for this application.
A piece of equipment that we wished we had was a platform or clamp that would allow the forward paddler to securely lay her paddle across the forward cockpit coaming. Jen takes photographs, and whenever she did the natural thing with her paddle before grabbing a camera — the natural thing being to lay the paddle across the cockpit coaming, in front of her — the paddle was eventually caught by wind, wave, or motion. It would then slide and pivot on the coaming, send one its blades aft to hit me, and flop into the water Securing the paddle to the boat’s existing deck anchor points is not a viable alternative, as it takes too long and both paddlers to get it done properly. What is needed is a simple, secure holder into which the paddle can be laid, and that can be attached to the coaming without modification. We have yet to find an appropriate commercial product, and we may end up constructing one of our own.
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When we purchased the kayak, our vision for its use involved loading it on planes, along with all our equipment, and flying to overseas destinations. While that vision is still alive, transporting the boat as commercial airline baggage proved more challenging than we had expected.
The boat packs into three bags from the manufacturer: a large, squarish bag for the skin that comprises the hull and deck; a large, long bag for the long components of the kayak’s frame; and a smaller bag for the frame’s ribs and the rudder components. The spray skirt, seats, and seat cushions are intended to be packed into the skin bag. There are three canvas inner-bags to further protect the skin, the long keel pieces, and the remaining long frame pieces. We purchased the upgraded, heavy-duty packing bags, which are better-able to handle life as airplane baggage. When everything is packed as intended by the manufacturer, only the small bag with the ribs and rudder assembly meets size and weight restrictions for flights between the United States and the Caribbean. Both the skin bag and the long bag exceed weight allowances, and the long bag also exceeds size allowances.
As of this writing, for flights between the United States and the Caribbean, the baggage weight and size allowances are fifty pounds and a combined measurement (length + width + height) of sixty-two inches. Fees are charged for exceeding these allowances. On the carrier we used, an item that exceeds the weight allowance incurs a fee of USD $100, and an item that exceeds the size allowance incurs a fee of USD $200. These fees are cumulative, and they apply each way on a round-trip journey; meaning that a bag exceeding both the size and weight limit will incur a total fee of USD $300 each way, or USD $600 for the round-trip. For two people traveling with a boat and all the equipment needed for a three-week excursion, staying within limits is a significant issue. As much as $2,400 is at stake, and even more if things cannot be confined to four bags and two carry-ons. Baggage fees can quickly become the most expensive part of the journey.
We did several practice packings before we found the best possible solution, and even then it put us at risk of additional fees. We stripped all three bags of their straps and back-pack style carrying systems. In the bag for the boat’s skin, we placed just the skin and its protective canvas. It weighed in at forty-nine pounds, just one pound under the limit; and we compressed it with luggage straps to meet the size restriction. We ditched the spray skirt; and we packed the seats and seat cushions into a parachute bag, along with camping equipment and personal flotation devices.
For the bag with the long frame pieces, we ditched the canvas inner-bag used for the keel. We kept the canvas bag designed for the other long pieces, and when it was loaded we rolled the keel inside of it. This allowed us pack our paddles into the long bag, which brought the bag’s overall weight to forty-nine pounds — again, just one pound to spare. But, no matter what we did, the long bag exceeded size limits; and it was therefore subject to a fee of USD $200, each way.
Everything else — the bag with the ribs and rudder, the boat’s seats and seat cushions, personal flotation devices, the bilge pump, dry bags, clothing, tent, camping equipment, eight days of dehydrated meals, snorkeling gear, camera equipment, and more — was packed into two canvas parachute bags and two very-heavy carry-ons. We made it work, but it was a real Rubics Cube. And no matter what we did, we could not escape the excess size and fees of the long bag.
During the outbound flight, all the keel and gunwale pieces developed scratches. These scratches were at points where the metal horseshoes and tungs met wood when the pieces were folded for packing. In the case of the bow keel piece, the scratches were sufficient to allow water to penetrate into the top layer of plywood during the trip, causing a 1″ x 1/2″ area of de-lamination. After the trip, we repaired the scratches with varnish, and we fixed the area of de-lamination with an epoxy fill. We also applied a layer of epoxy to high-wear areas in order to create a more scratch-resistant surface. On future trips, we will tape some lightweight packing material around the horseshoes and tungs.
On the return flight, one of two coaming studs was bent. The coaming studs are metal fittings attached to the sixth rib, and they join components of the coaming at the rear of the cockpit. I sent the rib to Long Haul, and the manufacturer replaced the fitting at no charge.
Related to transporting the boat as airline baggage was our interest in insuring it against damage or loss. Sure, the boat could be damaged during actual use, but we were more worried about leaving an airport luggage carousel with a bag of splinters.
Our insurance research revealed more non-solutions than solutions. We checked into a travel insurance policy, but it only covered USD $250 per item, which does not help much with a USD $5,000 kayak. We next talked with two companies that offer boat policies. Neither company’s agent had ever received a request to insure a folding kayak — it is not your typical, covered watercraft. One company agreed to insure the boat for a monthly premium of USD $24 a month; but they would only cover use within seventy-five nautical miles of the United States’ coastline, which does not help with overseas travel. The second company had nothing to offer. We also checked with the carrier of our high-value property policy, but we were told that boats cannot be covered by it.
Our existing homeowner’s policy is the best option we found, but it is still only a partial solution. In our case, watercraft payouts are limited to USD $1,500, and there is a minimum deductible of USD $500. So, if the kayak suffers damage of USD $2,000 or more, we will be paid USD $1,500. It is a cup one-third full, but at least the coverage is worldwide.
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The boat performed well, even in sometimes-difficult conditions. In calm conditions — which we rarely encountered — the fully-loaded kayak was easy to paddle at speeds of four knots. On the outbound leg of the trip, we had the wind and seas behind us, and we made equally-good speed; but the conditions demanded that we paddle hard to maintain steerage and avoid broaching. At those times when we attempted to paddle against winds in the mid-teens, we pulled with everything we had to make any headway at all, and sometimes we were forced to abandon the effort altogether. On the last three days of the trip, we took advantage of greatly-improved weather to complete an upwind, return leg of fifty straight-line miles. Hugging lee shores to minimize our wind exposure, we managed average daily speeds in excess of three knots.
The boat had good lateral stability, and we never felt at real risk of capsizing, even with the swell and waves on our beam. With following seas of two to three feet, it was fairly easy to keep the boat from yawing; but in seas of four feet and higher, we think there would have been an unacceptable risk of broaching (although that risk probably attends any seventeen-foot kayak). On our last day, we encountered six-foot and larger, steep-faced waves that swept through shallow areas. We steered clear of these areas, because such a wave would have been catastrophic.
We think that Sea State 3 is the upper limit for reasonably safe use of the kayak, with Sea State 2 and lower being optimal. Sea State 2 dominated our trip, and the boat performed with confidence. We rarely experienced Sea State 1 or O, and then only in small, heavily-sheltered areas. But Sea State 3 was a frequent occurrence, particularly in and around channels between islands; the boat performed well under these conditions, but it sometimes required heavy work to maintain steerage, and it sometimes felt like we were reaching the limit of controlled paddling. Consequently, we think that Sea State 3 is the boat’s upper limit, and that Sea State 4 would carry an unacceptable risk of broaching and capsize. And Sea State 3 is a pretty high threshold for a small boat — during my Marine Corps service in units that used inflatable Zodiacs with outboard engines, Sea State 3 was considered the limit for safe, peacetime operations.
Throughout the trip, we wished we had a sail for our boat. Since returning, we have purchased one: the Kayaksailor by Kuvia, which we selected for its relatively low cost, minimal intrusion into the cockpit, and transportability. We purchased it through Klepper America, which manufactures a custom mounting platform that also works on Long Haul kayaks. The platform attaches to the cockpit coaming and existing mast bracket without any modification to the boat. We have yet to put the sail to use, so we are not able to comment on its performance at this time.
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We encountered a few minor maintenance issues during the trip. The first dealt with the sponsons. Within sleeves attached to the interior of the boat’s skin, there are four inflatable tubes that run its length, two tubes on each side. These tubes are the sponsons, and it is their inflation that tightens the hull and deck to the frame of the boat. Without at least one functional sponson on each side of the boat, the boat will not work well, if at all.
Both lower sponsons developed leaks in their end-welds. One leak developed on the second day of the trip, the other on the third. We think they were the result of over-pressure from heat expansion as the boat sat on beaches, when the hull was fully exposed to the sun. We had not anticipated this now-obvious problem. After repairing the sponsons with the boat’s field repair kit, we made it a standard practice to release some air whenever we were not paddling, and to fully open the sponsons when the boat was beached for the night. We never had another issue. Nothing was mentioned in the boat’s literature about the potential for over-pressure due to heat, or the need to release air to prevent a leak. We have recommended to the manufacturer that, at the risk of telling owners the obvious, it may be something worth mentioning in the boat’s manual.
Long Haul Kayaks has since improved the end welds of its sponsons; and they sent us a full set of the improved sponsons, at no charge.
While patching the sponson leaks, we experienced a small, but potentially significant problem with the field maintenance kit. The liquid glue used to effect the repair is contained in a small bottle, and its plastic cap shattered into five or six pieces when we screwed it back on. We were left with a cap-less bottle of glue that we obviously needed, and we had visions of becoming stranded on a deserted cay for lack of a two-cent plastic cap. We ended up sealing the bottle with duct tape from the repair kit.
There was another small problem with this little bottle of glue: there was no brush integral to the shattered cap, so we used a small stick from a nearby tree to apply the cement. A brush would have been a big help.
There are plastic clips that attach the rear of the seat cushions to the seats, and these clips are attached to the cushions by webbing that is sewn into the seam of the seat cushion covers. With one of the seat cushions, the webbing pulled out of the seam. This happened with both clips after four days of use. Jen repaired the seat using needle and thread from the field repair kit, and we experienced no further problems. After the trip, Long Haul Kayak restitched both seat cushion covers, at no cost to us.
Our dive into the field maintenance kit caused us to take a harder look at its contents, during which we noticed two shortfalls. The kit contains numerous solid, round-head rivets; but there is no means to install them. Without something like a handheld squeezer, the rivets are pretty much useless. We mentioned the rivet issue to Long Haul’s owner, and he told us that frame damage almost always involves wooden components, not rivet failure; and that he saw no real need to carry a field riveting capability. Nonetheless, if a capability is wanted, we imagine a hand-held squeezer could be added to a larger repair kit. An alternative might be to carry a few stainless steel bolts, nuts, and washers to serve as temporary rivet stand-ins. Regardless of the choice — carry a squeezer, buy some bolts, or forget about it altogether — the rivets in the kit, as sold, appear to serve no real purpose.
Another shortfall is the lack of a proper patch kit for the hypalon hull. The existing repair kit contains a small roll of duct tape, and the instructions say that one of the tape’s uses is hull repair. While we appreciate duct tape’s wide-ranging utility, we are not comfortable with betting everything on a piece of tape immersed in saltwater — not when there are better solutions available. We are adding a proper hypalon patch kit to our packing list.
There are many stainless steel fittings that join the boat’s wooden frame: hinges, pins, rib locks, t-fittings, and rivets. Noticeable surface corrosion developed on them early in the trip. We managed to remove most of the corrosion with a light scrubbing once we got home, but we were still a bit concerned. We have since discussed this with Long Haul Kayaks, who assured us that this is a cosmetic issue, and not a matter of maintenance or structural concern. Long Haul conveyed that the grade of stainless steel used in the boat’s construction was recommended by the fittings’ manufacturer as the best material for use in the kayaks, and that this grade is more prone to minor surface corrosion than are some others.
The rudder control pedals are joined to the frame by large, stainless steel hinges. The hinge for the right rudder pedal bent during the trip. The most likely cause was me bracing on the pedal while paddling. The hinge still worked, but we did not want to head out on another trip without a repair or replacement. Long Haul Kayaks replaced the hinge, at no cost to us. They also bent the original hinge back into shape and returned it to us as a spare part.
We noticed a potential problem with a small metal fitting on the wooden bar that forms the boat’s forward deck. The fitting holds a wire landyard, that in turn holds a cotter pin, with the cotter pin being used during assembly to join the deck bar to a frame rib. The fitting is attached to the deck bar by a single rivet, and somewhere during our trip it managed to pivot upward, pushing a sharp corner into contact with the deck material. This could have caused a tear in the deck, which would have been a serious problem. As it happened, we discovered the issue before any damage occurred, pulled the fitting back into parallel with the bar, and inspected regularly thereafter. After our trip, we brought the issue to Long Haul’s attention. At no charge to us, they changed the location of these fittings for both the bow and stern, repositioning them to the ribs that join the deck bars. This new configuration shows no risk of the problem we encountered, and our conversation with Long Haul indicates it may become the standard for their boats.
The boat’s rib locks were a minor irritation for Jen. These metal fittings join the third, fourth, and fifth ribs to the cockpit coaming. On the third rib, they are positioned in just about the right spot to make contact with the forward paddler’s knees, which happened to Jen repeatedly. After the trip, we mentioned this to Long Haul. They sent us two prototypes for protective covers, at no cost to us. One shows particular promise.
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Despite the minor maintenance issues discussed above, and the challenges of transporting the boat on commercial aircraft, we left the Exumas very pleased with our Long Haul kayak. It was put to a real test, made all the more challenging by unexpectedly adverse weather conditions. The kayak got us through it all, and we became increasingly confident in its capabilities as the days passed. We never worried that the boat would fail us.
We have been equally impressed with the support provided by our boat’s manufacturer. The owner of Long Haul Kayaks has engaged us in detailed discussions on our observations and recommendations, and he has gone out of his way to correct the issues we identified.
We look forward to our next excursion — this time armed with a sail.
Hey everyone, I am looking for a kayak that I would be able to take out on 14 day solo trips. I've always taken my canoe out for trips so I'm not really sure if a 14 day kayak trip is too long or not and just needed some advice on what kayak would be best and whether it is possible.
At the moment I'm thinking maybe the Trak Seeker but if there are better options (or cheaper similar options
) I would love to hear them
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mje
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:50 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1748
Location: Southeast Michigan
There are a number of options, most of which cost less than the Trak, and a few of which, like the Feathercraft K1, cost more. At the lower end you have several models from Pakboats and Folbot, which are certainly expedition worthy, and then moving up in price, Long Haul, and Klepper.
Check the main part of the web site (Foldingkayaks.com/WP) for more specific info. It's a little out of date but there are links to all the major makers as well as many reviews. Also check the maker-specific sections here in the forum for good user-supplied information.
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Michael Edelman
FoldingKayaks.org Webmaster
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Jake
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:22 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
Posts: 394
Location: Coastal New Jersey
I might be a bit wary of the Trak Seeker. This because of the hydraulic apparatus used to modify the boat's hull shape. There is a demo model on display at the Jersey Paddler and the aforementioned devices are broken, probably because of the usual customer curiosity, playing with them to see how they work. The boat itself is quite good looking and simple except for the mechanical complications.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:03 pm
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1231
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Depends on where you are going and the type of waters you will paddle
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Feathercraft Kahuna ( Angela )
Mariner Express ( Miruku Maru ) ( In Storage)
Innova Helios 380
Northwest Sportee (SuperBoat)
Innova Safari
Mariner I
Feathercraft Java
Nautiraid 14
Innova Sunny
Feathercraft K-Light
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Tak
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:35 am
forum fanatic
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:46 pm
Posts: 78
tsunamichuck wrote:
Depends on where you are going and the type of waters you will paddle
x2 to this. Depends on where you want to go and what you want to do. And how light/heavy you have to pack.
If water and food and fire is not an issue, even a small boat will work. Personally I would pick the smaller feathercraft kayaks if all I want is a lightweight package for travelling and am not too concerned about speed. Would cost half a kidney even second hand though.
Folbots are decent value for their relatively low price. I don't really like the way folbot sets up but it is a simpler process than many other folding kayak. The Kiawah is a decent size, reasonably light and really affordable brand new. Material is comparable to the standard nautiraid nulls.
The TRAK is the toughest folding kayak that I have used and offers a lively paddle. The weight and performance are comparable to composite kayaks of a similar length but is rather big when packed compared to smaller folding kayaks. The jacks does lose a bit of tension after a while but still works to tension the kayak. The adjustable sideway trim is also useful and is a good compromise between a skeg and a rudder.
Alternatives such as gumotex/innova sit on top inflatables work too, but you need to carry a pump so that's extra weight and bulk. Performs ok if conditions are mild and it can offer comfort and flexibility that sit in kayaks cannot.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:04 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 532
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
If I were taking a trip such as you are describing my choice would be a Pakboat Quest 155 or XT-17 (or, if you can find one, an XT-15 -- discontinued last year but still for sale in some places.). Besides being nicely made kayaks for a reasonable price, their design with the entire deck being able to peel back from bow or stern for access inside the hull, makes packing and unpacking during such a trip much simpler than with other models with solid decks. I say this having owned 3 Feathercrafts and two Pakboats. These are very comfortable boats for extended paddling too.
http://pakboats.com/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=148
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treewater
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:37 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:31 pm
Posts: 144
I come from the same place as you. I have done three week solo trips in a canoes and we all know you can stack a canoe with gear as high as you feel comfortable and the water conditions allow. This of course is the amusing if not sometimes tragic mistakes new paddlers make.
For a kayak you are always limited since they have that deck covering. I tend to be an expedition paddler, meaning long trips. I like the Folbots for this. Their huge cockpits and wide beams (except Cooper of course) allow a lot of gear and you still get stability and the ability to shed water on the bow with wind and waves. Within reason of course.
There is the advantage of a double when paddled single. You can put a lot of gear in a double when you are alone but you will travel slowly. Folbot's old Super and old Big Glider are cheap and carry a tremendous load. They can be bought for under $500, even below $300 in good condition.
I think my first decision would be "do I want a small double loaded down or a large single loaded down." How much gear and what tradeoff in speed/stability?
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DLee
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:19 am
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
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Location: South Salem, NY
The Klepper Aerius II is a double and probably the most common folder on the used market. Also one of the toughest and heaviest. They can be paddled solo and you will get a lot of different opinions on that if you ask here. They will carry a serious amount of gear and can be comfortably sailed with a few different sail options. I've never packed a canoe for tripping but I'm sure the AEII will hold about as much as you need. Prices can range anywhere from $800 to $2500 used depending on condition, model and options (many come with a sail rig).
I paid $2000 for mine a few years ago. It's a 1991ish vintage, expedition model and came with a full sail rig in very good condition. It has served me well and I'm not easy on it.
Long Haul Folding Kayaks makes an American version of this boat called the Mark II. This boat can carry a payload between 800-900 lbs and it won't let you down.
d
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flatwater
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:00 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:36 pm
Posts: 248
Location: west burbs of Chicago
All good recommendations for good boats.
But
We still can't be more specific without knowing what kind of water you'll be traveling and what style your trip will be.
If you'll camp every night in a new place, ease of loading unloading will be key. Kayaks are a pain to pack compared to a canoe. Pakboats are easiest with removable decks, Folbots are next with big, long zippers in the decks. Others here can tell you about other brands.
The advantage of a decked boat is that you can take on some big waves (depending on your skill of course) without shipping water. Same if you get caught in driving rain.
Give us some idea what you're doing and we'll get down to specifics for you.
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mje
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:19 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
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Location: Southeast Michigan
Kayaks are a bit more work to pack than canoes- but not that much more difficult, and you on;ly have to do it once a day
. I used to camp out of a Klepper single.
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:24 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
Posts: 532
Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Pakboat has some really good deals for sale on their company website, selling some used and demo boats, plus the discounts on the remaining stock of the XT-15 which I had recommended to you. Packing for and loading a Pakboat will be exactly like you've always done with your canoes
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:43 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
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Location: atlanta, georgia
I think we are talking to ourselves on this. The question was posed by a new participant who has not been in this conversation for almost two weeks. All the advice is solid, I am just afraid it is falling on deaf ears. Or maybe not, I am not judging.
g
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:14 am
forum fanatic
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
Posts: 41
Location: Annapolis, MD
Hi Everybody,
I am a very new member as well, and although I am not the poster of this original question, I am finding this thread very helpful.
If the original poster isn't going to offer up a location, perhaps I can! I am planning on an extended trip in the Southeast Alaskan islands region, perhaps as far south as the BC islands. So...cold waters, strong currents in channels, lots of rain, and the potential for big waves. What would you all recommend? I am from the east coast so I have been researching folding kayaks as a way for me to make the trip feasible without having to worry about trying to purchase on arrival and then attempt to sell before departure...trying to bring my Valley Avocet would be insanely expensive on any major airline or via shipping.
As far as budget goes, I can rationalize spending ~$2000, perhaps up to $2500 when considering all the extras (spray skirt/deck, 3 or 4 piece paddle, etc.), with the understanding from other reviews that these boats can last decades and I would be able to take it on many other trips of this caliber in the future. I would like to buy new if possible.
Thanks!
Conor
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mje
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:27 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
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Location: Southeast Michigan
First question: How are your kayaking skills? Do you have a good roll?
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:49 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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Location: Annapolis, MD
I have rolled my hardshell avocet just a few times, but have never paddled a folding kayak. I hear/read they are much more difficult to roll. So I do not have any experience rolling a folding kayak.
I can execute a paddle float re-entry and understand the risks involved in such an area of paddling. I plan on using the next couple winters to practice rolling and re-entries during the winter here in Maryland. This is one reason I am researching so far in advanced (trip wouldn't be until 2016) as I would like to have my chosen folding kayak in hand well before the trip to get as much time as possible familiar with the boat.
You no doubt will have fun planning for your Alaska trip, and fun selecting the right equipment and kayak. Couple of questions: Will you be alone? Will you have resupply for water or rely on purified? Are you a spartan camper or, like some (me) a comfort camper?
Other than that, you can get a lot of used boat for $2,500 and I would not rule that out. There are a lot of kayaks that were bought with best intentions of use that end up spending their lives in the closet. That money could put you in a really nice K1, an expedition Klepper, Nauteraid, or Longhaul.
Best,g
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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor
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mje
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:29 am
Site Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:34 pm
Posts: 1748
Location: Southeast Michigan
I ask because there are narrow, high-performance folding kayaks, and wider, more stable kayaks. You sound like you can easily handle a high performance boat.
For a boat you could roll ideally you'd be looking at a Feathercraft Khatsalano or K1 Expedition, but that's $5,800. The only high performance boats in your price range, new, would be something like a Folbot Cooper, at $1800, or perhaps one of the Pakboat Quest line, but they don't have a ton of cargo room. My personal choice for an extended trip would be my Long Haul Mark 1, which is long, roomy, and can haul a lot inside, but that's around $3,200 new. Let's see what other Forum members suggest.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:34 am
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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Location: Annapolis, MD
In response to gbellware:
Yes, very very excited about the trip, now I just have to try to contain that excitement and channel it into effective preparation. I will most likely be paddling with one more individual, and perhaps a second...but likely not. I plan on purifying water at the source and then having a reliable amount with me (4 liters or so), but certainly not all the water I need between resupplies. I would consider myself on the spartan end of comfort camping if that helps at all. I am definitely not a weight weenie, but I also like being to minimize my gear just so I have less to think about. That being said, the gear I will have with me won't be the top of the line lightweight backpacking stuff. For example, when I backpack, I carry a two-person backpacking tent because I like the extra space to keep gear dry and to spread out. But, I won't be carrying stuff like a camping chair or elaborate stove system.
In response to both gbellware and mje in regards to the boats:
For this trip I am not nearly as worried about being able to churn out high speed miles in a perfomance kayak. My biggest concern for this outing would be gear storage capacity and durability.
I have come across the Folbot Yukon, and it looks like a potential option. Any experience with this kayak? Something I would certainly love about buying new is the lifetime warranty and highly ranked customer support. That would certainly give me peace of mind knowing the parts are covered.
Thanks again for your help.
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:47 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 822
Location: atlanta, georgia
Oh boy, now you opened a can of worms. Every folder has a different personality and value in the hands of each paddler. And the differences are often a matter of one's utility for "quality". If you want to see what a high quality expedition kayak does in the hands of some serious paddlers just search this board for Doinomazi for some amazing video. You can also look at my not so amazing pics of another expedition kayak here:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3623&hilit;=+florida+keys (this is the first of two posts, you will have to search for the second one if you are interested)
At the end of the day, Longhaul, Feathercraft, and Folbot have stellar customer service after the sale, you really can't go wrong. Except if you fall in love with a 5,000 kayak and only want to spend half that
Best,
g
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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:33 pm
forum fanatic
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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Location: Annapolis, MD
Wow, that Doinomazi has got an incredible rig, and great videos. I loved your shots as well.
Being that I am new to the folding kayak scene I figure I should be wise about how I invest. I figure that if I am planning on doing the expedition in 2016 then I have plenty of time to purchase a boat and take it through the ringer so I will know if it is suitable for such a trip. I simply want a boat that I can paddle, take on an airplane, fit lots of gear inside and not have to worry about breaking apart on every landing. It sounds like the Folbot Yukon offers that...and its half the price of the others.
I have just finished my first full year at my first full-time job after college. I don't have much of a budget and need to remind myself that if I start off with a $2500 boat then down the road when I am (hopefully) more financially comfortable I can afford an upgrade. I did the same thing with my mountain bike. Bought a used bike for just under $800 that I can ride hard and have a lot of fun. Of course, I would love the $3500 new bike...but that will have to wait, and besides, when I am out on the trail the pure joy of riding doesn't know how much my bike cost me.
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:19 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 822
Location: atlanta, georgia
That all makes sense, well thought through. BTW, we raised our kids in Baltimore and spent many happy days in the Chesapeake basin. Great paddling, it is an ecosystem like no other that I have seen. Enjoy.
g
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"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:34 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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I was just out paddling below the Bay Bridge last night! Great place, beautiful at sunset.
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Jeremiah
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:11 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:15 pm
Posts: 121
To Freeburn:
If you go to Folbot's website and find their blog, it follows a woman named Kristin Gates who used her Folbot Kodiak to paddle the Yukon River.
Thanks for posting. It reminds us that while we are submitting information to someone's question there are others taking it all in.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:35 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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Thank you Jeremiah!
Great blog reference. I spent the last summer working on a botany crew along the Yukon River...I am finding the blog both informative and nostalgic.
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ChrisO
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:05 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Oakland, California
Connor,
I was in Southeast Alaska about a month ago for work in Ketchikan. Gorgeous area! I managed to "sneak off" and do some kayaking in the Clover Passage area with a rented plastic sea kayak. Made my trip!
I think your big decision is if you want a folder which feels more or less like your Avocet (slender and more set up for rolling), or if you want to go with the more traditional folder type with sponsons (greater stability, but not really set up for rolling).
I second mje's recommendations. Maybe also consider Nautiraid Narak and Trak T-1600 in the slender sea kayak category, and Nautirad 460 for a different take on the more traditional type. None of these are within your price range, but they are comparable to fiberglass kayak prices. The other thing to consider is availability. Feathercraft, Longhaul, Trak, Folbot and Pakboat are North American companies while others have to be imported (Klepper, Nautiraid, Pouch and Nortik for example. Some are readily available here, others less so).
My own shortlist would be Nautiraid Narak, Longhaul Mk1, Nortik Navigator and Pouch LE14. These all have wood frames (personal preference!) and salt water resistant hardware.
Ideally you would be able to test paddle some folders before purchase. Don't dismiss a well cared for used kayak: The out of your price range new kayak is suddenly within your price range!
Chris
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:56 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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Location: Annapolis, MD
Thanks! Two new companies for me to check out! I have never heard of Pouch or Nortik until now. Seemingly, it would be crazy expensive to buy either of those new correct? I would assume just the shipping costs from Europe alone would be sky high. Pouch also has no price listing as they tend to do everything "custom" which leads me to believe nothing they have sell will come close to my price range.
I do love the look of the Long Hauls and have to say that the Ute does fall within my budget. However, I am assuming the Ute would not be able to carry enough gear to get me through 2 weeks between resupply stops. Is this a correct assumption?
For this trip in particular, and future expedition trips as well, I actually prefer to have a wider-berth kayak that focuses on stability and gear capacity over straight line speed. While I love taking my Avocet out for a couple hours to cover some serious ground as a workout, and perhaps an overnighter here and there, for the kind of trip I am planning it will be less about belting off those miles, and more about getting everywhere safely and comfortably so I can enjoy the experience as a whole.
So, it sounds like a lot of you all would be willing to pay the same price for a used Feathercraft/Long Haul/Trak as a new Folbot and that doesn't bother you. Interesting. My big worry is the warranty and customer service. If I was to scour the interwebs and come across a seemingly well taken care of boat which was far enough away that I was unable to test it out...what happens if it shows up with a big rip in the hull or something? Would those companies honor their product and still provide assistance without breaking my bank?
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ChrisO
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:26 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Oakland, California
Connor,
The key to affordable shipping from Europe is to keep the max length of the item to 120cm. Both the Pouch LE14 and the Nortik Navigator meet this per the data I have. I had an entire kayak - an old Kette SE54- shipped to me from Germany for 89 Euro.
Re price: In general folders are comparable, if not actually less expensive, than quality fiberglass sea kayaks. Yes, Folbots are comparable to rotomolded ones!.
I think that for your stated purpose a Longhaul with the added keel strips under the keel and the two stringers is the most "bomb proof" choice. Why? The Hypalon hull material is both particularly tough, abrasion resistant and easy to repair in the field. Frame clips are stainless steel instead of aluminum. For the deck you have the option of either cotton canvas, if you like a breathable deck on a sunny day when using a spray skirt, or Sea Mark (coated Sunbrella) if you prefer synthetic water and rot proof material. Lastly the frame pieces, since they are wood can be easily repaired or replaced (with scrap or even driftwood pieces) in the field.
Yes indeed, Folbot has a stellar warranty! However, I also consider easy repairability in the field. How would I get the warranty service while on an extended tour? Check what Folbot currently uses for their hull material and the required field patching procedures.
For a used kayak, overall condition is everything. You really should look at them in person, unless a really good and comprehensive set of photo's were taken (and you know what to look for!). A good set of photo's should show the kayak fully and correctly assembled plus all the parts when disassembled. Parts availability for Kleppers (AE1 and AE2), Longhauls, Feathercrafts and Folbots (except early plastic ribs, these will be replaced with aluminum ones!)) is generally not a problem.
Lastly, re. a shorter kayak, such as the Ute, they are great for day paddles where small pack size, easy maneuverability and quick acceleration are plusses. Packing space is clearly less and also consider a relaxed cruising speed on a long tour.
Chris
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Nautiraid Miniraid
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:44 pm
forum fanatic
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
Posts: 41
Location: Annapolis, MD
Hi Chris,
Great post. The Long Haul has now pushed its way to the top of my list. I was being hopeful about the carrying capacity of the Ute....that price tag is just so much easier to look at. But, the Mark I seems like a terrific boat, and I can't tell you how many people have spoken highly of their products and service. What do you mean by the stringers? Just deck lines? Below is what it lists online for the standard Mark I package:
Kayak, Rudder Assembly, Velcro Tuckunder Spraycover, Sling Seat, 1-8" Keelstrip and 10 D-rings (6-fore and 4-aft), 2 air sponsons, footbrace, bow and stern grab handles, Standard Packing Bags and Longren Packing Sleeve
So, what were you saying I should purchase in addition? This seems to have the keel strips, would the stringers just be to run through the D-rings?
Also, I have noticed it says it packs down into 3 bags. Is it feasible to take 3 bags onto an airline along with my other gear? I would assume that would cost a fortune in extra baggage fees.
Thanks for your time,
Conor
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:31 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 822
Location: atlanta, georgia
You have great advice from Chris. I would avoid overseas purchase of pouch, nauteraid, Tyne, or any of the otherwise fine folders just because of the shipping and service issues. Most of the overseas purchases by those of us from this side of the pond are for rare/antique/interesting models that just can't be found in the US. And avoid Wayland unless you want to waste your time and money, just search this board for their customer experience history.
You have listed the complete boat and add-ons you should consider for long haul kayak. The only thing I don't know about long haul is their hatch configuration. You would do well to consider hatches, they are not necessary but they sure make loading and unloading more convenient.
The stringers are part of the kayak frame, usually made of round-stock ash or birch, that run longitudinally in 3 or 4 sections from bow to stern, between the gunwales and keel boards. They help shape the hull. Hope that makes sense.
I have done a bit of kayaking on the Kenai, but there is another member who might help you with your plans. Tsunamichuck has travelled the world by kayak and now lives in the shadows of the Chugach Range in Alaska, you might want to pm him.
g
_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor
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DoiNomazi
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:13 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
Price doesn't always translate in quality, but your safety on a particular type of expedition, similar to what you described, should not ne compromised by price... I'd rather wait for the right time, save and get the type of equipment I trust, than buying cheaper. On certain expeditions your life might depend on the quality and integrity of your gear.
I like Nautiraid, I admire the elegance of a Feathercraft, I ordered Folbot (and cancelled the order because they were not using Hypalon at the time) and I settled for Long Haul. No regrets since.
I don't know how the Long Haul boats will evolve in the future, I hope that Mark doesn't fall into the war of weights trap compromising the quality of the matetials to save a few pounds, but right now the Long Haul is the boat that will take you places... and back!
It is a heavy, sturdy, trustworthy, piece of equipment. We loaded the boat to capacity, 70+ litres of fluids, camping gear, food for two people for 14 days, lots of other type of gear and the boat sailed through surf and rough patches without any problem.
Taking a folding kayak and camping gear by plane is not as simple as it sounds in ads. We gave up the three bag solution. Where is the rest of gear going to fit? Many foreign airlines have various restriction on weight allotment. If you decide to reach a remote place where only small planes, choppers , boats, 4x4 or donkeys can reach, logistics may become a much bigger challenge than paddling rough waters...
We just returned from a trip to a remote area and teo weeks later the boat and gear are still in transit between helicopters, small boats and two different cargo airlines. Rough handling, i saw one guy dumping our stuff from a truck still in motion, waiting days in a row outside in harsh conditions and so on. No bag or cardboard box would have survived that abuse.
I can't wait to see the boat again and I can only hope that everything will be OK.
Bottom line, expeditions are a bit different than the Sunday paddling at the local pond. Not better, not worse, just a bit different.
Plan well, save and get the best equipment you can afford. Then plunge forward and have fun...
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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail
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In response to gbellware:
Thank you for your clarification in regards to the stringers. I believe I can picture where and how they would fit from your description.
It is nice to know that Long Haul is North American. I also appreciate your advice as far as shipping from Europe goes. I figured anyways that if I am going to spend an equivalent amount of money for a Nautiraid, Pouch, or Long Haul...then I minus well purchase the one which will be able to respond faster to any questions or issues that arise.
As far as the Long Haul Mark I kit goes...does the spraycover also include a sprayskirt that actually attaches to the paddler, or would I need to purchase a separate sprayskirt to attach to the cover?
Also, tsunamichuck actually reached out to me after one of my very first posts and has been giving me advice as well. Very nice guy.
In response to DoiNomazi:
First of all, I hope your boat arrives in good shape! A shame to see people treating it so carelessly.
I am a little worried in regards to your issues with airline travel. Is it possible to pay a little extra ($50 per bag or so) to check two extra bags so the entire boat can just be checked on an airline. I am not currently planning on any overseas trips, but I wouldn't be surprised if I start entertaining the idea in the near future. I would like to feel more comfortable with being able to travel with a boat such as the Long Haul after making such a significant purchase.
On the other hand, I love to hear the great reviews of the Long Haul's durability and gear capacity. Good stuff.
Great videos by the way. Another individual pointed me in your direction and I spent all night the other night watching your adventures.
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DoiNomazi
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:21 am
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
It is difficult to find an answer that fits all transportation related situations. It depends on your destination. How remote is your destination, what type of climate, do you paddle, or paddle/sail, what type and how much camping gear you need, OR YOU THINK YOU NEED...
On the last trip we went to a cold climate, which meant winter gear, from additional heavy rubber boots, to winter sleeping bags and clothing. Without taking the sailing kit, because of the constantly shifting winds, our total combined curb side gear weight, including transport cases, was 233 Kg (513 lbs). The last segment of the flight had a non-negotiable weight limit of 20 Kg per passenger for checked-in luggage and 6 Kg for cabin luggage. That was 52 Kg. allowed for both of ys. It was not even a matter of paying excess fees. The plane was a smaller prop and they said they will not take any extra luggage beyond the 20 Kg per passenger. Options?
Whenever we take the kayak and gear overseas we prefer to use cargo transportation. Marine cargo is cheaper but it takes longer and air cargo is the most convenient. Air cargo has certain requirments. You can use the original bags but they must be really well wrapped and protected. On one trip we used two custom made heavy duty cardboard boxes for all the gear, kayak, camping, clothing, etc. The air cargo handlers tend to be careful and the boxes were in good shape but on the way back they gave their last and became unusable... if you add more segments and different forms of transportaton in addition to the flights, the situation changes quite a bit. The transfers to and from the airport can be demanding on the gear. Much more demanding than the cargo flight if you are not present to help and protect.
On the way in, we had to use two different cargo planes, a helicopter and a pick-up truck. Then we had to load all the gear on a boat for a 56 mile ride until the point where the paddling began. The empty cases had to travel back the 56 miles by boat and remain outside in the elemts (no protected storage) for 12 days until we returned. Then another boat ride to another island where the airstrip was located, followed by another pick-up ride and the two different cargo planes on the way back. No chopper on the way back. Each of those different forms of transportation means loading and unloading by people who may, or may not, care much about your kayak... It is easier for them to grab whatever strap seems handy, push, roll, drag, drop, than lift and carry with care... One guy decided to drop the boxes from the pick-up truck while still in motion! When loading on one of the boats they asked me if we can just roll the cases down a steep wooden ramp with nails popping up... I try not to imagine what happened when I was not present...
So, what type of luggage can take the abuse and protect the content? Do you want to reuse the luggage on future trips? Made of what? Heavy cordura (heavier than the original bags)? Hypalon? plastic? Aluminum? Wood? Cordura and hypalon on the exterior with marine plywood on the interior (sort of a trunk with handles all around)? How much weight would the heavier material add to the overall weight and cost? How many pieces of luggage? More pieces means more chances that something gets lost..
That being said, don't let logistics ruin the fun. Folding kayaks are meant to go places.
For the kayak alone, you can definitely travel on most flights with the original bags and expect to pick up the kayak in good condition at the other end.
That's my humble $ 0.02
Enjoy your future trips!
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Apathizer
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:10 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 282
Freeburn wrote:
I have come across the Folbot Yukon, and it looks like a potential option. Any experience with this kayak? Something I would certainly love about buying new is the lifetime warranty and highly ranked customer support. That would certainly give me peace of mind knowing the parts are covered.
Thanks again for your help.
The Folbot model I'd be inclined to use for that type of trip would be the Kodiak. It's a serviceable Klepper/Long-Haul knock-off, and in terms of length/beam seems to strike a nice balance between the longer, sleeker Cooper and the short, beamy Yukon. At 13' long with a 30" beam
the Yukon would move like a houseboat. At 15' long with a 28" beam, the Kodiak is still too beamy for my taste, but it will definitely be faster and have better tracking than the Yukon.
But ultimately it depends how much you really need to carry. Freshwater can be filtered as needed, so there's no need to carry gallons on board. But if you'll be on saltwater for extended periods without access to freshwater you might need to carry several days worth of water.
Just FYI, I've pretty decided to buy a Pakboats Quest 155 this winter. I'm a former Folbot Cooper owner, and I've looked closely at both the Kodiak and Quest 155, and absolutely love Pakboats' design: They're light, yet still managed to be quite rigid, fairly easy to assemble, have decent storage capacity (without going overboard) and the peel-off deck is wonderful; not only does it make loading/unloading gear super-easy, but it also enables 'topless' paddling on calm, clear days. Also, with the deck removed the inside of the kayak dries much more quickly, and is really easy to clean. I'm 5'9" 160pds and the Quest 155 seems just about perfect as a general-purpose yak for me: spacious enough for mid-length touring, and also well suited for casual day-trips.
The Kodiak is a good boat, but unless you're primarily doing long, unsupported trips, it's overkill as a general purpose yak... especially since it weighs 52pds!
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mje
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:15 am
Site Admin
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Location: Southeast Michigan
I'd agree that Long Haul is the best combination of ruggedness, seaworthiness, longevity, repairability, and availability of parts. The boats combine the best aspects of the Kleppers with improved hardware and US service. Folbot is high up there, and offers great support and value, though their boats aren't quite as rugged. Feathercraft gets high marks for performance, but you pay a high premium for them.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:36 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
Posts: 41
Location: Annapolis, MD
In response to DoiNomazi:
Wow, the journey of your cargo rivals belongs in an epic the likes of the The Odyssey! I have to say it isn't very heartening to hear what logistics are required for transporting a larger folding kayak such as the Long Haul. I would be carrying about 75 pounds of gear and wouldn't be sailing at all, so I would not be facing the drastic weight issues you ran into. But still, 75 pounds of gear along with a three bag boat will be difficult to bring on an airline judging from your experience.
Much and more to think about. Thank you.
In response to Apathizer and mje:
As DoiNomazi pointed out above, the big drawback for me with the Long Haul would be ease of transportation. Personally, perhaps the most important reason I am interested in purchasing a folding kayak is for the ability to take it on an airliner (I understand I may need to pay a little for an extra bag) anywhere around the world without having to hire a logistics manager. The PakBoats and Folbots start at almost $1000 less than the Long Hauls, and from what I have seen the Kodiak and the XT-17 would be able to fit into 1 bag for travel. Given those benefits, I am prone to believe that I would rather deal with the stress of fixing a tear in the hull in the field than to be so overwhelmed by the stress of transporting my boat that I never actually get out in the field in the first place.
Based on everybody's feedback, I know that a Long Haul would be a terrific boat, I have no doubt. But with the transportation issues, and price differences I would love a little more feedback about both the Kodiak and the XT-17. I agree with you Apathizer that upon a second (or was it twentieth) inspection of the Folbot website the Kodiak would be worth paying extra for the increased length to width ratio. The XT-17 is also an attractive option, and was one of the first boats I was considering however I am pretty sure the reason it dropped down my list was due to negative reviews in regards to the ability of the deck to keep water out in rough weather. I don't recall where I read this, but does this sound familiar to anybody? Also, with the XT-17 would you think it feasible to pack in a solid 75-100 lbs of gear apart from myself?
As far as the Folbot goes, I have read some bad feedback in regards to the ability to repair their new hull material (elvaloy). Has this issue been cleared up, or is this an on going mystery to find an adhesive that can actually stick to elvaloy?
Apathizer, as far as my search for a folding kayak, I am not concerned with owning a performance speed demon. I have hardshell kayaks that I can put in for the daily/weekend paddle, but nothing that I can take across the country and pack to the gills. I would prefer to purchase a boat with greater stability and gear capacity than straight line speed. Of course, as you pointed out with the Yukon, when an increase in speed without sacrificing stability with the Kodiak can be achieved I see the wisdom in making that switch.
So, ignoring the Long Haul for now, what would be your choice (and why) for a multiday/week expedition kayak in potentially rough waters...PakBoat XT-17 or Folbot Kodiak?
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DoiNomazi
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:42 pm
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 222
In spite of what we encountered with logistics, and we like to use quite a bit of gear on our trips, loading the boat to capacity, if I had to buy another folder tomorrow I'd buy a Long Haul without hesitation because, being out there in the surf on a rough day, I know that it will stay together no matter what you throw at it, I also know that it will float rain or shine and take us back to safety.
The extra bucks I had to pay for it, was, above all, an investment in safety and durability. After all the hard trips, the boat looks and feels like the day I unpacked it for the first time.
I'd never pick anything just usin my eyes browsing online, or reading other people's opinions. While both opinions and pictures can be extremely helpful, touching and testing, looking at the quality, texture, strength of the materials is the real deal breaker.
I remember emerging from the tent one sunny morning and seeing a Feathercraft tandem right next to our LH. It looked like a Lamborghini parked next to a Toyota Landcruiser 78 Troop Carrier...
I approached filled with jealousy... I asked for permission to take a closer look and touch. I touched the aluminum keel and the gunwales... I flexed it a bit, I pushed the deck, I lifted the bow... In the end I was so happy with my boat...
I'd never trade.
And don't forget, the quality of a product is also reflected in customer service and nobody can compete with Long Haul when it comes to customer service.
Regardless of what folder you decide to buy, good luck and have fun!...
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:31 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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Location: Annapolis, MD
At the moment the Long Haul Mark I seems like a dream boat. Expensive, yet can't be beat in durability and customer service according to you and several other members. I can definitely see myself testing and purchasing one in the more distant future (perhaps a tandem for duo adventures like you!). You mentioned how you like to really pack in a ton of gear...if you were to be travelling more lightly (say just 75-100lbs of gear maximum) would you still choose the Long Haul every time?
I wish to ease my way into the folding kayak scene and the XT-17 and Kodiak seem better tailored to my immediate needs (budget and ease of travel).
I completely agree with you that all this reading and typing on forums (although very very helpful and appreciated!) is all for naught if I don't bother to actually see and feel and paddle the kayaks in question. I have been searching, and will continue to search, for demos for Folbot, PakBoat, and Long Haul.
Worst case scenario with Folbot, I could even order the Kodiak test it and return it within 30 days in "like new" condition for a full refund if I am unable to make it down to Charleston, SC or find a nearby demo. Of course, doing such a thing seems rude to me, so I would rather not have to go that route.
Thanks again for your help.
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Apathizer
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:31 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 282
Freeburn wrote:
In response to Apathizer and mje:
As DoiNomazi pointed out above, the big drawback for me with the Long Haul would be ease of transportation. Personally, perhaps the most important reason I am interested in purchasing a folding kayak is for the ability to take it on an airliner (I understand I may need to pay a little for an extra bag) anywhere around the world without having to hire a logistics manager. The PakBoats and Folbots start at almost $1000 less than the Long Hauls, and from what I have seen the Kodiak and the XT-17 would be able to fit into 1 bag for travel. Given those benefits, I am prone to believe that I would rather deal with the stress of fixing a tear in the hull in the field than to be so overwhelmed by the stress of transporting my boat that I never actually get out in the field in the first place.
I agree. I don't fly much, but don't have a car and need a bit that will fit comfortably on public transit (buses and trains). Both Quest models fit into a compact duffle, and while bigger the XT-17 is still manageable-sized. Transporting the Kodiak via airlines would be challenging, but doable: even though it's heavy, it fits into 2 separate bags, so there'd be additional fees, but I'd think it would work. I don't think it would work for mass transit.
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Apathizer
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:34 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 282
Freeburn wrote:
...The XT-17 is also an attractive option, and was one of the first boats I was considering however I am pretty sure the reason it dropped down my list was due to negative reviews in regards to the ability of the deck to keep water out in rough weather. I don't recall where I read this, but does this sound familiar to anybody? Also, with the XT-17 would you think it feasible to pack in a solid 75-100 lbs of gear apart from myself? ...
As far as the Folbot goes, I have read some bad feedback in regards to the ability to repair their new hull material (elvaloy). Has this issue been cleared up, or is this an on going mystery to find an adhesive that can actually stick to elvaloy?
So, ignoring the Long Haul for now, what would be your choice (and why) for a multiday/week expedition kayak in potentially rough waters...PakBoat XT-17 or Folbot Kodiak?
In highly tumultuous conditions both Pakboats and Folbots will have some deck leakage. With the Kodiak, the cockpit isn't watertight, and a standard spray-skirt won't fit, so the main issue is cockpit leakage. And yes, as you've probably seen in the Folbot section of this fourm, Elvaloy is extremely difficult to repair, and field repairs seem implausible.
With Pakboats, there is some leakage through the velcro seam, but most indications are that it's pretty minimal if the deck attached/aligned carefully. Since this seam is perpendicular to the water, the leakage from typical waves/swell is minimal. However, if the deck is repeatedly submerged -say during leaned turns and extremely rough conditions- water supposedly enters at a much faster rate.
While both have +s and -s, I think I'd prefer the XT-17 over the Kodiak for the following reasons: field repairs are much easier (esp the hull - the most likely thing to get damaged), it's lighter, probably a bit stiffer, and offers a better balance of storage capacity and performance. I know you aren't looking for a 'performance' yak, but it's my understanding that even though the XT-17 is narrower it's still very stable.
Another nice feature about all Pakboats that most paddlers probably won't think about is the additional air-tubes. Most folders only have one sponson on each side that runs along the top of the hull, whereas Pakboats have 3 inflatable tubes on each side that run both the entire length and entire depth of the hull. Consequently, if flooded Pakboats will sit much higher in the water, making them much more manageable. Folbots and other models will remain afloat, but the deck will be just barely above water.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:12 pm
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Location: Annapolis, MD
Apathizer, wonderful advice. I have seen on other discussions that the XT-17 accepts non-Pakboat sprayskirts. That would be nice to be able to purchase a high quality sprayskirt to help with cockpit waterproofing. As for the water up under the deck, I would be putting everything in dry bags anyways, and the ability to repair the XT-17 hull in the field is a huge advantage in my mind over the Kodiak.
The more criticism I read about Elvaloy, the more hesitant I am about pursuing Kodiak. Such a shame because the Kodiak looks like it otherwise fit my requirements well. I don't mind the two bag system that much; the weight and dimensions of each shouldn't make it difficult to check one bag and pay extra for the second bag as an "oversized" or just second checked bag.
Now it's time to do some more digging on the XT-17! I did see an impressive video of a couple surfing their XT-15s on the Columbia River. My biggest concern is storage space...enough for 3-4 medium dry bags (clothing, camping gear, food)?
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:34 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
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Location: Annapolis, MD
Oh, and one more thing just to add to the chaos. How do you all feel about the PakBoat Puffin Saranac?
I just caught a glimpse of it on another discussion and was checking out some reviews. The price seems too good to be true (which usually means it is). I like the fact that it appears I could apply a similar solo deck as the XT-17, and they have added the bow and stern covers that help avoid water splashing in the ends. Also a much more roomy hold for gear. At 28 lbs, the weight is nice as well. Is it made out of a less durable material or something? Why the cost differential?
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alexsidles
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:14 pm
forum fan
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:09 am
Posts: 14
Location: Seattle
Freeburn wrote:
The ability to repair the XT-17 hull in the field is a huge advantage in my mind over the Kodiak.
The more criticism I read about Elvaloy, the more hesitant I am about pursuing Kodiak. Such a shame because the Kodiak looks like it otherwise fit my requirements well.
Freeburn,
You'll want to call Folbot for confirmation, but I believe the Kodiak (and the Aleut and Edisto) is still being made with a Hypalon hull instead of Elvaloy. I have a Kodiak as well as a Yukon, both in Hypalon, plus a giant Feathercraft Klondike, and I think the Kodiak is well-suited to southeast Alaska and to trips of up to two weeks' duration.
Here is a link to a recent trip report of me in my Kodiak in the San Juan Islands of Washington State (saltwater islands, topographically similar to SE AK). This was only a six-day trip, but the boat carried two large bear barrels and a big pelican case for my camera, plus a tripod, plus all the usual camping gear and clothing and fresh water jugs. With judicious packing, you could handily carry sufficient supplies in a Kodiak to do the trip you are talking about.
The Kodiak, like all open-cockpit designs, takes on water if waves break on the deck. The spraydeck and sprayskirt are insufficient to keep all the water out. Whitecap conditions will result in a certain amount of water entering the kayak, though not to a dangerous degree. I would avoid using an open-cockpit boat in anything more than three-to-four foot wind waves.
You are unlikely to encounter such conditions in the Inside Passage, so you should be fine. If such conditions do arise, they are likely to be brief, no more than a day or two, and you can wait them out. Other commenters may have greater risk tolerance than I do and may advise you differently. All the boats you are looking at—Kodiak, Yukon, Long Haul, and XT-17—are of the open-cockpit type, so there is no dodging this issue, but I don't think it will be a show-stopper.
I say the Kodiak is plenty of boat for you, if you can get it in Hypalon (again, call Folbot and confirm). Field repairs with the Hypalon hull are easy. I have done them on my Yukon, but haven't needed to with the Kodiak. For your money, Kodiak is probably the way to go.
Alex
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:41 pm
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
Posts: 41
Location: Annapolis, MD
Alex this could be an absolute game changer! I sent them an email right away asking about which material they use for the Kodiak. If it is indeed hypalon it could rocket back to the top of my list.
Your points about the open cockpit kayaks are great. I guess that the point at which water starts coming in the boat could be used as a metric for when it might be good to get off the water. I am all about pushing forward, but I agree that on a long expedition voyage there is more to be gained from erring on the side of safety and pulling into camp than paddling headlong into a dangerous situation.
Also nice to hear a first hand account of the gear capacity. Sounds like it should be plenty for my needs.
Your trip report was fantastic as well. Nice photos. I especially liked that one of the jumping orca...awesome.
Thanks!
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Apathizer
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:09 am
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 282
Freeburn wrote:
Now it's time to do some more digging on the XT-17! I did see an impressive video of a couple surfing their XT-15s on the Columbia River. My biggest concern is storage space...enough for 3-4 medium dry bags (clothing, camping gear, food)?
I'd guess there would be plenty of space. Remember, Pakboats don't have internal thwarts, so there's much more storage space than most other folders. The listed max payload is 400pds
, so it can certainly handle the weight.
alexsidles wrote:
You'll want to call Folbot for confirmation, but I believe the Kodiak (and the Aleut and Edisto) is still being made with a Hypalon hull instead of Elvaloy.
All the boats you are looking at—Kodiak, Yukon, Long Haul, and XT-17—are of the open-cockpit type, so there is no dodging this issue, but I don't think it will be a show-stopper.
Sorry if I seem overly contrarian, but the XT-17 does not have an open cockpit. Consequently, with a high-quality spary-skirt there won't be any substantial cockpit leakage the way there is with the other boats you mention.
Freeburn - I'm curious what Folbot's response is, but it's my understanding that Dupont has actually discontinued production of Hypalon. There's a Folbot video showing how to assemble the Kodiak, and the hull is Elvaloy, so I doubt they'll be able to manufacture a new Kodiak with a Hypalon hull.
It's my understanding that other manufacturers are still producing Hypalon-equivalents under different brand names, but I don't think Folbot offers anything other than Elvaloy for all their new boats.
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:38 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 822
Location: atlanta, georgia
Hypalon was discontinued, Dupont closed the only plant that made the product in 2010. There is still some old stock available out there but it has not been available for boat builders for several years.
g
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2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
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36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor
Folbot just got back to me about this issue as well, and you are both correct that their lineup is now all Elvaloy. I am curious to see if they can help me figure out an alternative...perhaps an old stock model of Hypalon or something...but I am not getting my hopes up yet.
Apathizer, as you pointed out the 400lb weight capacity is plenty enough for myself paddling solo. Should be able to fit all my gear with ease. The ability to use an off-brand spray skirt is also a big plus.
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:13 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 822
Location: atlanta, georgia
Freeburn,
Not to press a point, but it strikes me that you may be putting a huge weight on the service and warranty, and maybe some advice from experience might help here. Folbot used to have some quality issues that made the service guarantee crucial. They have fixed most if not all of the quality issues and now have trouble free boats. I can't speak to the frequency of problems with those boats, but I can tell you that I have never had an issue with my Klepper (with one exception) or Feathercraft, both bought new and used frequently or my 45 year old Klepper, bought used and paddled weekly. I am sure Longhaul owners have the same experience. The boats are very, very well made and when something DOES go wrong it is usually caused by the owner. I have to admit to crash landing my Quattro in the surf on a deserted Florida Key, landing sideways on a huge partially submerged stump. There was no apparent damage until I got back to land 3 days later. When I took the kayak apart i learned that the port/stern gunwale had snapped in half. Don't know if that would have happened with a wooden frame, but my carbon frame broke clean in two. I called Klepper and fessed up to the break being my doing, they said "no problem" and promptly sent TWO gunwales (so that I would have a matched pair in the stern) at no charge. Now, the other surprise here is the redundancy on these kayaks, i paddled and sailed for 3 days with not so much as a groan from the boat. Amazing.
The one area where there is no redundancy is the hull, so you should not venture out overnight unless you are confident you can repair a cut.
Just a few more $.02
g
_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"
1990 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
36' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:40 pm
forum fanatic
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:53 am
Posts: 41
Location: Annapolis, MD
Going simply off of advice from other users I would pick the Long Haul. I haven't heard any criticism about durability, performance, storage capacity, or service. The biggest reason why I am not going down that route is the difficulty of transporting such a craft in three large heavy bags.
DoiNomazi made it clear that he was willing to go to extremes to get his Long Haul to the final destination, but the intrinsic value of a folding kayak in my mind is the ability to obtain a boat that could accomplish the goals of my trip while still being able to pack down small enough to transport across the country with me on a major airline. If I was to go with a Long Haul, than it seems I minus well just try to figure out the logistics and expenses required to fly my Valley Avocet hardshell out instead.
Does this make sense? I have also set aside budgeting for this trip in general so it isn't the price of the Long Haul that turns me away. Although I would prefer to stay under $2500, I am willing to make what could be a once in a lifetime purchase for a high quality boat for $1000 more. The inability to pack down is all that is keeping me from pulling the trigger at this point.
Of course, I greatly appreciate your points gbellware. Let me know if my logic makes sense, or if you think there is an easy way to solve this issue that I just haven't thought of.
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FrankP
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:37 pm
Being a Long Haul owner, you could say i'm biased, however, it seems to me you are looking for a kayak to use on an expedition lasting 2 week. most all other kayaks don't have the capacity to carry that much weight. I would rather own a no compromise kayak that will last many many years. Great stability and versatility is important to me even though I will never go on such a demanding trip. I believe in buying a kayak that exceeds my needs just in case something happens that I was not expecting. "Fly on Southwest and your bags fly free".
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Apathizer
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:46 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 282
FrankP wrote:
Being a Long Haul owner, you could say i'm biased, however, it seems to me you are looking for a kayak to use on an expedition lasting 2 week. most all other kayaks don't have the capacity to carry that much weight. I would rather own a no compromise kayak that will last many many years. Great stability and versatility is important to me even though I will never go on such a demanding trip. I believe in buying a kayak that exceeds my needs just in case something happens that I was not expecting. "Fly on Southwest and your bags fly free".
For me (and Freeburn it seems) it's a question of balancing weight/packing size and durability/function/paddling characteristics. As you and many others have said, Long Hauls appear to be great as uncompromised expedition boats, but their packed size, weight, and price are deal-breakers for me.
I'll be using my yak mainly for day trips as well as some short-medium tours of 3-5 days. Consequently, I need/want a boat with moderate storage capacity that offers a happy medium between stability and performance. So for me Pakboats seems to fit the bill. They're fairly stable but still pretty fast and nimble, compact, light and fairly easy to assemble. The XT-17 is also reputedly pretty durable, though not as durable as Long Hauls, Kleppers, or probably even the Kodiak. But since Pakboats are so easily repaired, this is only a minor weakness in my view.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:18 pm
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1231
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Or you can go with a Feathercraft and have durability, speed and the ability to pack your kayak and gear in 2 bags plus a carry-on. Another option would be a sectional hardshell
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ChrisO
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:57 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Location: Oakland, California
Conor,
Well, a lot of advice for you in all our posts, some general and some very specific! Now might be a good time to take a step back, let things sink in and then take a fresh look at the most likely candidates for you. Don't feel pressured to decide now, the better new kayaks should be around when you are ready. It is unfortunate that we don't have a folding kayak center somewhere where you can see and try them all!
Re. number of bags: Yes, many full length singles require multiple bags. The traditional solution is to have a folding kayak cart and transport the bags stacked on top and strapped down. That is how they are taken on trains in Europe. Just as handy at airports and to get to and from the water.
Chris
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:08 pm
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Chris, thank you for your response. I have become aware that I often ask questions that result in cyclical discussions, and I am definitely guilty of asking questions tailored for the answers I want to hear, and I have tried to be more open-minded.
I have now begun the process of trying to find individuals or companies in my area with boats available that I can check out. As people have mentioned before, this discussion is a great way for me to narrow down my research, but until I see and paddle a craft I shouldn't make a decision...and I agree.
I have spoken with Folbot and will be setting up a meeting in the Virginia area to see the Kodiak. Does anyone happen to know of places in the mid-Atlantic that would have a Long Haul, Klepper or Feathercraft available to see? I know there is a place on the Eastern Shore of Maryland where they supposedly sell PakBoats. Hopefully they will have an XT-17 I can check out.
I know this was originally another user's question, and I apologize for taking it over, but thanks to everyone for being so receptive and helpful in regards to my barrage of questions. I will let you all know what the final decision is (just don't hold your breath)!
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:49 am
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
New York Kayak is a Feathercraft dealer. Klepper is out of business. Long Haul may be able to put you in touch with a local owner
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:15 am
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Feedback on the Pakboat Puffin Saranac: I spotted your question about this a couple pages back. I've owned both an XT-15 and an earlier Puffin, the Sport (which has the same frame design as the newer Puffins.) The frames are stronger and stiffer in the XT and Quest models. I would be hesitant to commit a Puffin to substantial loading and rough water. I consider them more of a day touring design. If you look on most of the folder manufacturer sites you can find PDF's of the instruction manuals -- looking at these can give you a better idea of how the frames are built.
Yes, the XT cockpit coaming will support an aftermarket spray skirt. We bought a Harmony skirt for the XT-15 which fits nicely.
And, yes, the triple sponsons are a nice backup feature. The first time we took the XT-15 out we had inadvertently mounted the seat wrong and a sharp edge on a fitting made a small puncture in the lower sponson on one side. When we realized it had gone flat we just opened the valve on the corresponding one on the other side o balance it and the kayak performed fine for the rest of the day until we were able to get home and fix it (an easy repair that took a few minutes and has held up fine for 3 years now).
I don't remember if I mentioned to you that Folding Kayak Adventures in Colorado has a free classified ad page for owners of Feathercrafts to advertise their used boats for sale. Somebody about 90 miles west of you (Centreville, VA) is selling an older Khatsalano for $2000.
There have also been occasional deals on eBay lately on Feathercrafts. Not sure what the deal is with this Big Kahuna -- 6 offers but the $2200 is about the reasonable price for one that vintage if in good shape. Not worth more than that.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... k&_sacat=0
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:12 am
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Thank you kerryonkayaks! I knew there had to be some substantial difference between the XT and the Puffin builds. I also read that the skin of the Puffin isn't the same thickness as the XT.
I have been visiting that Colorado Kayaks page religiously and sent a message the Khatsalano owner just yesterday! Hoping to get down there to visit/demo it so I can get a feel for the product.
Thanks again for the advice.
Conor
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:48 am
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Feathercraft-Ka ... 4d24ade8f7
This looks like a possible fit for you,
g
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:49 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
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If you are still shopping for a boat, you might want to know that Pakboat is selling some demo models of their larger XT's, an XT-16 (with dual deck and set up to take a sail) and an XT-17 with both solo and tandem decks. Prices are $1595 which is a nice 20% discount.
http://pakboats.com/index.php?option=co ... cle&id=110
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Apathizer
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:50 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 282
KerryOnKayaks wrote:
If you are still shopping for a boat, you might want to know that Pakboat is selling some demo models of their larger XT's, an XT-16 (with dual deck and set up to take a sail) and an XT-17 with both solo and tandem decks. Prices are $1595 which is a nice 20% discount.
http://pakboats.com/index.php?option=co ... cle&id=110
Yeah, that XT-17 with both the single and double deck set-up seems fantastic, especially at that price. It gives you so many options: It can be a high-volume expedition boat or double boat for day paddles.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:03 pm
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I actually just closed on a boat a few days ago and it arrived on Friday. Another user pointed me to an ad selling a used K1 in Alaska. The seller gave me a great deal considering it was a once used 2009 model. All the pieces look like they have never been touched. Very excited!
However, I am keeping an eye out for a second boat for my brother (who is out of the country for the time being) so I will definitely pass those Pakboat deals past him to see what he thinks. Thanks for the tip!
Congratulations! Great boat -- my K-1 was older (1996) with a more awkward frame and heavier fabric than yours will have, but it was a fantastic boat in the water and very bombproof. You've chosen well.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:43 am
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Thanks, excited to have joined the Feathercraft community!
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ChrisO
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:43 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm
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Location: Oakland, California
Conor,
Glad it worked out for you! See, a lightly used boat is often the way to go: You get the boat you want at a price you can afford. Or put an other way, the better boat for the price of a lesser one?
Enjoy it out there!
Chris
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Apathizer
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:07 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
Posts: 282
Congrats. I recognize that the K-1 is a great expedition boat, even if it's overkill for my intended usage. In addition to the Quest 155, I'm also keeping my eye out for a decent used boat. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until a used Quest 155 emerges either on their web site or elsewhere. [There's someone selling a used one in Vancouver BC, but she wants way too much for it.]
Last edited by Apathizer on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:15 pm
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The K1 had been a "blue sky" kind of boat for me until I was pointed to this seller in Alaska. The price I negotiated made it comparable to a new Folbot, or a little more than a new PakBoat. Was watching the assembly video last night as I went over the components and everything is essentially "like new" condition.
The Quest 155 may be a solid option for my brother if I can't help him find a deal like I did.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:53 pm
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Bring her home to Alaska
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:45 am
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That's my goal, thanks for the help!
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:31 am
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Time lapse video of my first assembly. The seller had packed it up with the hatch rims still on the skin, but no damage was evident. Everything else was in wonderful condition!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlNjYMX ... e=youtu.be
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:51 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Location: inland Pennsylvania, USA
Wow! Straightforward assembly the first time, my hat's off to you. I had a couple of false starts my first time back in 2002 and had to undo and repeat a couple of steps.
You will love that boat -- wait until you've had it out in conditions and you will really appreciate how solid it feels in rough water.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:07 pm
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I only had it out for a half hour or so after my first assembly before darkness came, but my immediate reaction was how smooth it felt when approaching powerboat wakes. Can't wait to get it out in some serious water.
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gbellware
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:59 pm
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Nice job, great video, thanks for posting. And yes, part of the magic of a well-built folder is the ability to competently flex and absorb wave action that would otherwise rattle your bones. Pure pleasure, once you get used to it.
g
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KerryOnKayaks
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:40 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:46 am
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Couple of tips on preserving your new boat -- one won't be applicable over the winter but you need to be aware of once the weather warms up: ALWAYS open the inflation valves on the sponson tubes when it is not in the water (and the valves on the inflatable seat if it has one and any flotation bags inside the hull). I forgot to do so one hot summer day and the expanding air inside while I was transporting the kayak on the roof rack ruptured one of the sponson seams. It was a real pain to get it out of the skin to repair and replace it.
The other absolutely important thing is to ALWAYS use Boeshield T-6 spray or drops on every frame joint every time you set it up (unless you will immediately be breaking it down the same day you paddle.) You can buy Boeshield T-6 (I recommend the small dropper bottle) in most good bike shops like Performance Bike. It's messy so I always keep a roll of paper towels or a rag handy when I am assembling.
Also, if your boat didn't come with a patch kit, buy one from Feathercraft or put one together yourself. Field repairs are quick and simple. One thing I have added to my repair kit is a baggie with a small strip of Eternabond brand peel-and-stick micropolymer patching tape. You can get it from RV supply sites. It will seal just about any material in a pinch and can even be applied to wet surfaces. It could prove pretty handy for your Alaska trip.
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Freeburn
Post subject: Re: Kayak for 14 day trip?
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:27 am
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Great stuff! The sponson tip is great to be aware of, as of yet I have just been putting it together and taking it apart right before and after paddling so the tubes haven't been inflated long (it also hasn't been very warm). Good to know though, I can imagine that would be a pain.
The seller included an untouched repair kit and an unopened bottle of Boeshield. The first time I assembled it I applied the Boeshield to all the joints. I plan on doing it again this week. I also appreciate your tip about the Externabond repair patch. I had never heard of that before and it certainly sounds like a must-have for any long distance paddle in harsh weather.
Got out yesterday afternoon for a good 10 miles in some pretty windy and choppy conditions. Couldn't believe how well the boat handled it all!
Thanks for your advice,
Conor
Post subject: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:04 pm
We fly to Florida for a week-long vacation every winter, as well as flying other places (including England annually.) We're frustrated by having to rent big sit-on-top kayak/tubs. (We could rent better boats locally, but week-long rentals are expensive and that requires fussing with rental car roof racks.) Having a boat with us would allow us to paddle more often on the spur of the moment.
So we're thinking of buying folding kayaks. Started out thinking about a Pakboat Puffin Swift, but they're discontinued and have become hard to find. Right now we're leaning towards Citibots - very light, very small, quick-ish set up time, cute colors, great warranty. (A bit more $ than I'd like to spend though, but I want something that feels high-quality that will last for years.)
Will something like a Citibot be an improvement over the typical rental sit-on-top? We paddle P&H Scorpio LV's at home (the folders would be for the rare guest paddle) - while we don't expect the speed of those kayaks, we want something that at least has some decent speed and maneuverability. Our typical paddle is 3-4 hours, protected waters, with just a dry bag. Fair weather only.
Having something that stays within the airline 50 lb weight limit and baggage size is important. While most airlines (except Southwest) will charge us for an extra bag, that's less $ than even a brief kayak rental. Our last Florida trip had something like $250 in kayak rental fees alone...
Thanks!
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maryinoxford
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:22 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
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I’ve never paddled a Citibot, so I’ll let other people comment on how they compare to hardshells, or to rental sit-on-tops. I paddled a Scorpio on a course, and it felt a lot like my Feathercraft Wisper. (I really like the Wisper, but it’s a more sophisticated boat than I “need”, for my gentle leisure paddling.)
There’s a rule-of-thumb in folding kayaks that the better the boat, the longer the set-up time. (Others will argue about that, of course, and it depends on your definition of “better.”) If you really want to avoid using roof-racks, you’re committed to assembling/ packing for every paddle, and in that case, assembly convenience needs to be high priority. If you’re prepared to use a roof-rack, then you only need to assemble once on a trip, and thereafter the boats are ready. A friend and I flew to a holiday destination (internal UK, south England to north Scotland) with our Feathercrafts. We used an inflatable roofrack with our hire car. Some of my comments, and those of other users of the inflatable racks, can be found here:
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... =3&t=51468
- along with a photo of our loaded car.
For “assemble every time” – “most convenient” casual paddling, look at the better end of inflatable boats. They’re not fast, but cheaper than most folders, and assembly is simple and quick. Innova make good boats, but there are others. This website is has a lot of good information about inflatables:
http://www.theboatpeople.com/
Mary
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harwax
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:38 am
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My family has both a Folbot Citibot and a Folbot Kiawiah and are very pleased with both. I would suggest you go to the folbot forum website and read owners comments
Here is the link:
http://www.folbotforum.com/
Good Luck
Harwax
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kellstr
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:37 am
I recently bought a new boat (Cooper from Folbot). I got impatient and purchased new but I can say that folding boats do appear on eBay, Craigslist, this forum, and folbotforum.com regularly. Many times they are half the price of the new boat.
The Cooper, packed in the bag with the expedition kit, weighs 50 lbs. That has the Hypalon skin. I think the material used before Hypalon was lighter. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Kelly
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mutcth
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:07 pm
Thanks. I've spent a lot of time on the Folbot forum. While a Cooper would provide more performance, it's a lot heavier (currently 39 lbs vs 25 for the Citibot) and bulkier for travelling. I can find them used though, a big asset. (I started looking at Aleuts, but I want something that fits into one bag.)
A Kiawah is lighter (31 lbs) and tempting (we each weigh under its weight limit) but they're hard to find used. $1300 for each Citibot is high but doable - $1800 each for two new Kiawahs won't be happening.
I thought about one of the Innovas but get mixed reviews on their performance and rigidity. Like all of these boats, they certainly have devoted fans.
Tom
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maryinoxford
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:59 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
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Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
With weight critical, be aware that some manufacturers are "optimistic" with the quoted weights - for example, are things like seat and footrest included when they weigh it? And for sure, they don't include the weight of the bag; hence Kelly's useful info that a "39lb" Cooper packs at 50lb. If possible, ask here or on Folbot forum about what weight people reckon for their packed boats.
The early model Coopers did have a lighter hull skin, but I believe it was still heavier than the quoted weight.
Mary
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mutcth
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:32 pm
Thanks Mary. You're right - Folbot forum folks report that the Cooper just nudges 50 lbs (and an inch or two over airline luggage dimensions). The Citibot goes from 24 to 30 packed.
Plus, as my dear wife puts it, "I don't pack light."
Got to include the other paddling gear too...
Tom
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Jake
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:57 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
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Location: Coastal New Jersey
I'm in a similar situation. I'm a long time hardshell paddler but want something to mess about with while down in Florida for 10 weeks in the winter and I refuse to cartop a hardshell 1200 miles each way. Weight and assembly time are both important and for those reasons I've been attracted to the Folbot Citibot and Innova Safari either of which seem reasonably priced. While I certainly don't expect either of them to hold a pace with the 17' x 22" boats that I usuaully paddle, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a cruising speed of 3 to 3 1/2 mph. I prefer a cockpit to which I can attach a spray skirt [Florida can be chilly in February] rather than a sit on top like the Safari where I would need a wet suit. The Citibot's very wide [34"] beam makes me think that it will be a sluggish performer as it seems designed for the first-time kayaker. However, Folbot offers a 30 day return policy and if their boat doesn't fit your needs they will take it back and refund your money. I not sure that even Feathercraft will do that.
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mje
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:42 pm
Site Admin
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Check the Citiboat reviews on the main http://foldingkayaks.org pages, too.
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Alm
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:43 pm
Quote:
we don't expect the speed of those kayaks, we want something that at least has some decent speed and maneuverability. Our typical paddle is 3-4 hours, protected waters, with just a dry bag. Fair weather only.
Sounds like Citibot. Or inflatable (Inova Helios? Safari? can't say). Don't confuse inflatable kayaks with float tubes - check this site section on inflatables.
"Some decent speed" you won't get with those. Without wind (wind is a killjoy in SOT and inflatable) you will probably see a slightly better speed compared to SOT.
Get optional keel strips if you are getting a Citibot.
Keep in mind that assembling every day, and then cleaning/rinsing/drying is some chore even with a small boat like Citi or inflatable. On a hot summer day you might not want to assemble any folder - even the one that takes 12-15 minutes - for mere 3-4 hours paddling. Inflatable eliminates assembling pains, though drying and cleaning chore remains. Check what people say about Citi on Folbot forum as well http://www.folbotforum.com/ . Last time I checked (last year) they still had problem with the seat - something with screws protruding.
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kellstr
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:08 pm
FYI, here is a Citibot for sale advertised on the Folbot site:
http://www.folbotforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4411
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:38 am
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1231
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Honestly, Citibots will have the same performance as those "tubs" If you want sea kayak performance, buy a sea kayak or build your own, like a Yost. Your boat and kit can be placed in 2 bags for air travel and combined for land or sea travel.
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Alm
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:44 am
Boat that packs in 2 bags is too bulky for air travel these days - unless it's a privileged group like 1st class, frequent flyers, militaries etc. Cross-Atlantic flights tend to have more generous allowance than domestic European and North American flights, but 2 bags is still a lot. And this is more pain every time when bags are transferred between planes or from plane to another transportation. Even checking it out at carousel is a pain, they often unload it at a window for "bulky and fragile items" somewhere in obscure corner separately from all your other luggage.
The best boat for flying is inflatable, and one-bag boat like Citibot or K-light or Kahuna is the second best. The best boat for paddling is a different thing, though - and here I would place these 3-4 options in a reversed order, with Citibot and inflatable being less desirable than sea kayaks like K-light or Kahuna.
Citibot, btw, is quite a bulky package - it breaks apart into 3ft long pieces; and to the stated 24 lbs you should add at least 3 lbs bag, 3 lbs of keel strips, and 1 lb skirt.
50 lbs limit (for boat) I wouldn't take too seriously - any decent boat with bag will weigh close to 50 lbs or more, not including the accessories like PFD, skirt, 4-piece paddle etc etc. And you always have other items too, so you are guaranteed to exceed 2x50 limit when flying on vacation with boat. My carrier Alaska Air serving West coast of Canada-US-Mexico no longer has 2x50 limit - any bag after the 1st one is charged extra, even if it's 50 lbs. So, just be prepared to shell out more cash.
Tom's boats... they look good for the stated purpose - day paddling; but you have to make it - Tom doesn't normally sell boats. They are lighter than comparable commercial versions; but they are also simpler than commercial models, with fewer bells and whistles, and are less "fool-proof". Commercial boats are designed for use by any dimwit, because some customers are.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:16 am
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2 bags for transpacific flights and SW Airlines total 100 lbs. Or you can pack in 1 bag and pay overweight charges
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DLee
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:39 am
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Location: South Salem, NY
Chuck, you probably travel with your boat more than most of us... planes, trains, bike...
Your Khatsalano is a rocket ship of a boat as well isn't it?
What kind of package(s) do you usually end up with when you are on the move with your boat?
D
I, too, think that the Citibot, only ten feet long and almost three feet wide, has got to be classified in the "tub" category. I've not paddled it but i have paddled a few wide beamed ten footers and they were, without exception, in the tub or maybe even coracle class. I'm thinking now of waiting for a good used Kahuna to come along which would replace one of my two hardshells and buying a new Innova Safari. Most reports have it that the Safari is just a lot of fun to paddle and its light weight and quick assemby make it very appealing for spontaneous messing about. The qualities of the Kahuna are unknown to me but Ken Fink who is one of the few remaining Feathercraft dealers has invited me to paddle with him on Tampa Bay next January when I get down to the Gulf Coast. I'll buy lunch.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:32 am
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
DLee wrote:
Chuck, you probably travel with your boat more than most of us... planes, trains, bike...
Your Khatsalano is a rocket ship of a boat as well isn't it?
What kind of package(s) do you usually end up with when you are on the move with your boat?
D
For air travel to Asia and back I get a 2 bag allowance and 50 lbs each. I take the Khats and a big duffle and mix my gear between the 2 bags. I can pack the backpack heavy as well for non air portages. The Khats is a great travel boat. Not as fast as the frame is a bit loose and the skin is well patched. I may be adding a rudder. I was out in some 40 kt winds fully packed and weathercocking was a problem. I basically braced and broached on a 7 mile crossing
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Alm
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:35 am
Jake wrote:
I, too, think that the Citibot, only ten feet long and almost three feet wide, has got to be classified in the "tub" category. ...I'm thinking now of waiting for a good used Kahuna to come along which would replace one of my two hardshells and buying a new Innova Safari.
Well, I suggested earlier for flying and daytrips to consider inflatables as well, and I stand by this opinion. Still, according to specs, Safari is same short and heavy as Citibot, only less beam width - 28" vs 34". Considering flat bottom of Safari and V-shape of Citibot, the "real" beam or waterline beam of Safari would differ by less than 6" - may be 3" or 4", I can't say. Though, 3" difference in width is still a lot, judging by several boats that had a chance to paddle. OTH inflatables like Safari with dull bow and a lot of wind resistance can't go too fast anyway. I doubt that Safari is much better performing boat than Citibot - if at all.
Quote:
Most reports have it that the Safari is just a lot of fun to paddle and its light weight and quick assemby ...
Most of those reporters very likely didn't paddle a faster and more responsive boat. Any boat is fun, IMO. Assembling - yes, pumping inflatable is easier than assembling a folder, but this only matters for trips with duration one day or less. For overnight weekend trip to assemble folders like Citi, Aleut or even Kahuna is totally tolerable pain.
Last edited by Alm on Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:55 am
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I have a Helios II that is ok solo and for the type of paddling I do with it, it is on par with an Aerius 2 ymmv
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Alm
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:04 am
tsunamichuck wrote:
I have a Helios II [inflatable] that is ok solo and for the type of paddling I do with it, it is on par with an Aerius 2 ymmv
... in other words (trying not to be rude to Aerius II solo paddlers) - not a fast boat ...
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Alm
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:14 am
tsunamichuck wrote:
2 bags for transpacific flights and SW Airlines total 100 lbs.
Looks like SW has a poor safety record. I wonder whether United Airlines will become the next weak link, with maintenance outsourced to shoddy services of Singapore company in Arizona http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flying-cheaper/ . Mechanics are hired for $14 an hour without checking their papers, no license required, some mechanics are immigrants on working visas that don't know enough English to read repair manuals. Horrible story. ST is the biggest contractor of this kind in the US, btw.
Good news is that my prevalent carrier Alaska Air is doing maintenance only in properly licensed US and Canadian facilities. I'll probably move to Baja permanently when retire - flying becomes too complicated...
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Jake
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:54 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
Posts: 394
Location: Coastal New Jersey
Safety record? If Southwest lets my bags fly free, count me aboard! Anyway, probably safer than Aeroflot.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:57 am
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
No major crashes for Southwest with Alaska having a crash in 2000. Figures NPR would rip on SW. They still make money. Good service and reasonable prices. Much better than the union run airlines
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paddlesheep
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:03 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am
Posts: 149
Location: Vancouver BC
Alm wrote:
Quote:
Most reports have it that the Safari is just a lot of fun to paddle and its light weight and quick assemby ...
Most of those reporters very likely didn't paddle a faster and more responsive boat. Any boat is fun, IMO. Assembling - yes, pumping inflatable is easier than assembling a folder, but this only matters for trips with duration one day or less. For overnight weekend trip to assemble folders like Citi, Aleut or even Kahuna is totally tolerable pain.
Where in the world do you come up with such ridiculous generalizations? The safari is a fun boat to paddle, period. Has it ever occurred to you Alex, that speed on the water is not the be all end all goal of every boat? Or of every paddler?
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paraglia
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:37 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 207
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Alm wrote:
tsunamichuck wrote:
I have a Helios II [inflatable] that is ok solo and for the type of paddling I do with it, it is on par with an Aerius 2 ymmv
... in other words (trying not to be rude to Aerius II solo paddlers) - not a fast boat ...
just wondering... ...how would you define a fast boat?
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paraglia
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:11 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:43 pm
Posts: 207
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Alm wrote:
Well, I suggested earlier for flying and daytrips to consider inflatables as well, and I stand by this opinion. Still, according to specs, Safari is same short and heavy as Citibot, only less beam width - 28" vs 34". Considering flat bottom of Safari and V-shape of Citibot, the "real" beam or waterline beam of Safari would differ by less than 6" - may be 3" or 4", I can't say. Though, 3" difference in width is still a lot, judging by several boats that had a chance to paddle. OTH inflatables like Safari with dull bow and a lot of wind resistance can't go too fast anyway. I doubt that Safari is much better performing boat than Citibot - if at all.
This Safari having a flat bottom statement made me go back to some pictures I took when I first assembled my Safari. Not sure its bottom is that flat.
Attachments:
Resize of First assembly 033.jpg [ 25.33 KiB | Viewed 33 times ]
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paddlesheep
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:54 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am
Posts: 149
Location: Vancouver BC
Hey now let's not go bringing any facts into this discussion!
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Jake
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:31 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
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Location: Coastal New Jersey
Defining just what is "fast" is an interesting question. With the exception of surfskis and long, very narrow competition kayaks, most boats will move along "easily"[that's important] at around 3.5 to 4.0 mph for considerable stretches of time. If you work at it you can push the pace up to 4.5 mph or so but who wants to work that hard? And even then you're still going slower than the jogging pace of an over weight non-athlete. More important to me is how easily the hull moves at 3.5 mph for hours at a time, how well the boat behaves in slightly gnarly conditions and does it suffer from excessive weathercocking when running across or down wind and how comfortable is the kayak for an all-day paddle and, maybe most important of all, do you experience a sense of joy, that undefined je ne sais quoi each time you take the boat out for a paddle?
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maryinoxford
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:48 am
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Posts: 575
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
I used to have a Safari. I found it pleasant to paddle when out alone. But once or twice, when out with people in plastic kayaks of similar size, I was struggling to keep up what they considered a relaxed pace. I don't have that struggle if I'm paddling the same boat as everyone else, so that led me to believe that the Safari is slow compared to hardshells.
I never did formal speed tests. But when I switched from the Safari to a Puffin Swift, I noted on one trip that a distance which took me an hour in the Safari took 40 minutes in the Swift.
Mary
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:52 am
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
Posts: 1231
Location: Anchorage Alaska
paraglia wrote:
... in other words (trying not to be rude to Aerius II solo paddlers) - not a fast boat ...
just wondering... ...how would you define a fast boat?[/quote]
Before 2007, Anything I happened to be paddling
Nowadays it is what ever other people happen to be paddling
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Chuck, I understand that completely. ditto for bicycling. I found myself looking down at the rear deraileur as I peddled and thinking, "What's the matter with this bike, this gearing used to be so easy" I guess i should be happy that I can still remember where I put the bike the night before.
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paddlesheep
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:44 am
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am
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Location: Vancouver BC
The reality is that any inflatable will be slower than a hardshell of comparable beam and length. Then there's the paddler. I've been out with hardshells where I'm struggling to keep up and failing. I've also been out and led the pack. On flat water I'm usually at the back of the pack. In rough water I'm closer to front.
I just think it's important to note that despite Alex's opinions let's just take note of the fact that he hasn't actually got any experience on the subject beyond I believe one trip in an inflatable. It's fine to prefer one type of boat over another but honestly his opinions are just talk. Opinions not supported by any experience or any facts.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:41 am
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I have doing lots of day tripping with my Kahuna and/or Khats. Assembly takes 20 min for the Kahuna, 30 for the Khats. Small amount of time to spend for the freedom of being able to paddle. 10 minutes or so to pump the Helios. I carry a boat with me on my travels. Never regretted having one even if I never got the chance to paddle, but really regretted not having one with me. Yes it is harder to travel by air these days but "Nothing worth half as much doing as simply messing about in boats" sums it up.
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Jake
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:29 am
knight of the folding kayak realm
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Location: Coastal New Jersey
Chuck: I've been looking around for a "previously abused" Kahuna or K-Light. Extra normal wear and tear, bullet holes, etc, OK if the price is right but Feathercrat [Theresa?] tells me that the K-Light would be a bit too small for my modest 5' 11" 165 #. I hate to be uncomfortable in any boat so maybe I should look elsewhere?
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:57 am
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I had a K Light and used it quite a bit and I am 5'8" and was around 175-180lbs with 9.5 feet and was fine. The Kahuna is a really volumious boat and really so is the Klight so I think you would be fine. Klights pop up on Ebay, P Net ,here and Craigslist so keep an open eye
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:47 am
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Went solo today with my Khats. Was supposed to go with a friend but he cancelled this am. I was supposed to meet another friend with a hardshell at 1pm. I offered Jeff the use of the Kahuna and had offerd to transport it to a subway station where I change buses.Jeff lives at the other end of thatsubway line and it a 30 minute ride. Jeff declined because it "is a hassle to carry that boat and put it together" ( I have the Kahuna from bag to water in 20-25 minutes) I was at my put in at 1030, on the water at 1110 and found I was able to paddle to about 1230 and maybe 5 miles at a workout pace.I called my friend and told him I would meet him about 1:45. He was cool because he was stuck in traffic. I paddled back and arrived about 1:50. No sign of my friend. He was still stuck in traffic. I paddled a couple more miles and took out about 2:30. I was letting the boat dry for a bit and my friend pulled in about 2:45. I was paddling in a workout mode, so I helped my friend unload and called it a day. Finished packing the Khats about 3:15, home by 4:15. Skin is drying on clothesline but was pretty dry when I got home. Jeff called about 6:30.He paddled for an hour and then had a 2 hr drive home.
I spent then an hour assembling, disassembling. Had a nice walk to and from the bus stops ( I use a Feathercraft pack cart) and a great, hard workout paddle. The Wenyu is about 10 miles from my house. Bus fare roundtrip is 2RMB, about 30 cents US. Beats the heck out of sitting in Beijing traffic for 4-5 hours with a hardshell on the roof for a 1 hour paddle. Something to think about when someone writes that assembling disassembling a folder for a mere 3-4 hours is hardly worth it.
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Jake
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:23 pm
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
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Location: Coastal New Jersey
Very cool outing. A Philadelphia kayaker [now relocated to the Seattle area] who goes by the pseudonym Dubside traveled all over the mostly urban Philly, New Jersey, Delaware area by public transport pulling his Kahuna/Wisper on a folding cart and launching at the most improbable places. His Wisper is all black, he dresses all-black and was threatened with arrest one night by the Coast Guard when they found him paddling under the Walt Whitman bridge on the Delaware River. Can't blame the CG, he does look suspicious and is more than a little eccentric. But I watched him put his Wisper together in 10 minutes.
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Alm
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:13 pm
A few thoughts.
K-light will have enough payload for 165 paddler, but 5'11" might be a tight fit. I'm 5' 7" and feel alright in a Big Kahuna, where fore cockpit rib is farther away. I would feel alright in a regular Kahuna (same cockpit as K-light), and I feel alright in the small cockpit of hardshell (though there is no rib in the latter). With 5'11" you'd better try before buying K-light or regular Kahuna. Shoe size matters too - these boats have low deck, and size larger than #10 can be a problem.
Kahuna takes me usually 40-45 minutes to assemble, including rudder and hatches. About 30 minutes without rudder. This is pretty average time for many. Chuck is tough, above the average, I bow respectfully... I think with enormous mental concentration I could assemble Kahuna without rudder and hatches in 20-25 minutes, but this would leave me emotionally exhausted for the rest of the day, if not physically exhausted as well.
Yes, pumping inflatable is 2-3 times quicker and less exhausting than Kahuna or K-light; and it packs more compact; but - according to those with a lot of experience with this - any inflatable is slower than hardshell of same length and width. FC boats have very tight frame, they are closer to hardshell than other folders, so I would put an equation sign here, i.e. inflatable of the same length and width will be slower. In a head and side wind an inflatable will definitely be slower than a framed V-hull, it can't be any other way for all physics laws known to me.
Keep in mind that, unlike Kahuna, used K-light often come with an older type of skin, which is Hypalon, a little heavier and with a seam. Those prior to 2001(?) will have Hypalon. Can't find the chronology on FC website now that they've changed web design. I've grumbled already at those changes (and not just me), now they've put assembling instructions list in white over dark blue - is there anybody that finds this easier to read, I wonder.
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paddlesheep
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:13 pm
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am
Posts: 149
Location: Vancouver BC
Alm wrote:
Yes, pumping inflatable is 2-3 times quicker and less exhausting than Kahuna or K-light; and it packs more compact; but - according to those with a lot of experience with this - any inflatable is slower than hardshell of same length and width. FC boats have very tight frame, they are closer to hardshell than other folders, so I would put an equation sign here, i.e. inflatable of the same length and width will be slower. In a head and side wind an inflatable will definitely be slower than a framed V-hull, it can't be any other way for all physics laws known to me.
Is that a fact? Can you then please explain to my why on an outing to Nelson Island in June, returning and heading into a 25 knot wind from the south west, with 1-3 chop I was easily able to keep up with a fibreglass double? I also left a number of 15 and 17 foot hardshells behind me too. I'm dying to know!!!!
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Alm
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 pm
paddlesheep wrote:
Can you then please explain to my why on an outing to Nelson Island in June, returning and heading into a 25 knot wind from the south west, with 1-3 chop I was easily able to keep up with a fibreglass double?
Simple. Like you said: "...Then there's the paddler". In inflatable you were able to keep up with FG double, and two paddlers like you in FG double would've left single inflatable faaaar behind...
Choppy waters (not the wind, but exactly - the waves) can work to advantage of wider and more stable boats as well, though this isn't anything specific to inflatables or folders or hardshells - it's just that wider hull, otherwise slow, needs less efforts to stay upright. Wasn't the case with FG double vs inflatable anyway - both boats are pretty stable.
In all the years of Watertribe EC paddling marathon in Florida, a multiday affair in varying weather conditions - I recall one account of doing it in inflatable. There could've been a few more that didn't have much to tell, - I don't think there was too many. The guy finished - which is an achievement in itself, as many people didn't. There is one more guy in another class - inflatable catamaran, and this is about it. That marathon is good for testing and selecting what works the best, i.e. better overall result with same amount of efforts, but folders are not popular in "expedition kayaks class" and neither are inflatables. Racing kayaks make a separate EC class, I'm not talking about those now.
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paddlesheep
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:05 am
faltbootemeister
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:37 am
Posts: 149
Location: Vancouver BC
Thanks but I know all about the Watertribe guy in the Stearns inflatable, and in fact I may have been the one to raise that as an example in the first place. According to you though he should have been dead last, I mean, he was in a slow 10 foot boat! Too bad that guy didn't read this forum, you could have set him straight.
I think you make a lot of uninformed assumptions that don't really translate well into the real world. Yes an inflatable is slow-"er" than a comprable length and width hardshell, a fact that you harp on about over and over and over again. In the real world, on the water, it's just ONE of the factors that determine how fast you get from point a to b.
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Jake
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:59 am
knight of the folding kayak realm
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am
Posts: 394
Location: Coastal New Jersey
Amazing how many canards there are about paddle craft in general: short boats are "slow", long boats are "fast", infatables are "uncontrolable" in wind and so on. A long, narrow surfski paddled by, say, some one like a Greg Barton is relatively "fast". Powered by Jake here, that same ski might get up to 6 mph for a couple hundred yards or so before I collapsed in aerobic agony or capsized. All of the kayaks I've paddled have been in the "slow" catagory, long short or otherwise. But I've had more fun with shorter boats [12 to 15'] than longer ones.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Folding kayak for travel, avoiding rental "tubs"
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:00 am
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
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Ah, the horrible chore of drying the Helios. 5 minutes to pump up and let dry. Got my sight set on a Traveller to bring to China next Spring.
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Post subject: Is Wisper backpack oversized?
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:20 pm
it's 37.5x18.5x10 on FC website that totals to 66. Most airlines start charge oversize from 62". Is there a problem with checking in a Wisper?
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maryinoxford
Post subject: Re: Is Wisper backpack oversized?
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:12 pm
lord high faltbotmeister
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:55 am
Posts: 575
Location: Dumfries, SW Scotland
I have only flown with my Wisper once (UK internal trip) and the bag wasn't questioned. It's worth noting that the bag is bigger than it needs to be. I packed paddles, repair kit, airbag and (for the flight) the pack wheels and frame inside the bag. If you think the airline might be picky about the size, pack just the boat, and strap round the outside to take up slack. You'll get the size down from Feathercraft's quoted measurements.
I've shown how I packed the boat on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3154 . I think you can see from the creases along the side of the bag that it is not filled to full thickness.
I've heard people say that if you want to check-in a bag that is in some way "borderline," it's good practice to get there early, and be polite and friendly to the staff. They are less likely to hassle you.
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tsunamichuck
Post subject: Re: Is Wisper backpack oversized?
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:13 am
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:57 am
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Location: Anchorage Alaska
Never had an issue with my Khatsalano. I use Southwest in the US and if I go to China, the airlines American Air China Hainan have a 100 lb/ 2 bag allowance. You can put your boat in 2 bags.
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orchido
Post subject: Re: Is Wisper backpack oversized?
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:58 am
maryinoxford is correct; the bag is certainly larger than necessary if it's just the kayak inside.
With my Wixper XP, I was able to pack EVERYTHING, including pump, rudder, sea sock, etc....with the exception of my paddle (which is a two-piece). I was even able to stuff in the pfd.
Only problem was that I couldn't lift it up afterwards, so that really defeated the purpose. But after a few stints in the gym (which I've been putting off for a couple of summers...and counting), it's nice to know that I can fit it all in if need be.
So if it's just the kayak, you can just fold down the excess and fit within the limits.
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Post subject: Re: Is Wisper backpack oversized?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:54 pm
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:43 pm
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I have never had a problem flying with my Wisper XP. In addition to the boat I put my PFD and two 4-piece paddles in the bag, along with charts, rash shirts and a bunch of small stuff.